Notatbm

we have several kids in our ward and family who are “out” publicly. Most are not shy about it. My generation (x) no one had time for any lgbtq drama and you kept it to yourself. Go to a high school campus right now (not in Utah) . Kids in same- sex relationships dang near having public sex and this is gilbert. Current generation isn’t shy about it. it asks you to list sins already repented of and handled by a bishop. In addition to any others . Jesus forgets our sins except for sometimes not. Even after you repented and your bishop has declared you forgiven. What is there to apologize for? bishops were supposed to do that. Jesus probably told the prophet to make sure to police up all the kids who play with themselves.

This is what I said and exactly what you challenged me on: "every org I have ever been a part of will purge you from the roles if you dont pay dues, attend meeting etc" Every org I have been a part of does exactly that. Nowhere in there did I mention any church. You dont get to make up stuff I did not say. Take your CFR request and file it in the trash.

if you compare my post to his response you posted here, id like to hear your opinion on the comparison. Id truly like to know if im smoking crack here.

I did just read his post and in addition to attributing false statements to me, this is a smattering of the hyperbole, name calling and character smearing he engages in. Just some highlighted text from his post...it is a very large portion of the post. Anyone who engages like this with all the hyperbole i do not take seriously: underlying venomous motive little fake epiphany shows disingenuous feigned desire façade clever way to couch a hostile demand. the comparison is flawed The true, venomous motive is revealed the final sentence is a moment of pure, unfiltered glee fake motive you can weaponize cherry-picked data The most emotionally charged and extreme examples just to openly taint an entire group. This is not about a reasoned argument it's about how many times you can associate the entire Church with the most heinous crimes imaginable. All of this is just a cry for personal vindication Projection A psychological and moral defense mechanism where individuals unconsciously attribute their own unacceptable thoughts, feelings, or qualities to another person or group. In this case, the ex-Mormon poster is projecting their own qualities onto the Church. Lying: Notatbm's argument is disingenuous, as it is presented as helpful advice but is actually a hostile attack. He accuses the Church of being deceptive by inflating its numbers, yet he himself is being deceptive about his motives. He becomes the very thing claimed to hate or criticize, is a powerful and destructive psychological cycle. It often stems from deep-seated resentment and a need to externalize one's own perceived flaws. Intolerance Notatbm seems to be a typical secular ex-Mormon that was made by "deconstruction". To see flaws results in a new, impossible standard for any Church to live up to because it often involves the rejection of the core principles of mercy, forgiveness, and grace that are fundamental to any church.

I don’t even read his Mile-long hyperbole filled posts. He is real good at putting words in others mouths which were not even uttered/written. Just like the cfr he just tried to corner me with. read my initial post and compare what I wrote to what he said I wrote. Didn’t match up . Most of what he claims I said isn’t even in there. He just makes stuff up.

Where did I say ANY church does that?

Boy sounds like you missed out… lol this is between 1978 ish till I got out of high school. My boys are both adults and were also asked about it repeatedly in the 2000s. anyway yep before you became a deacon you got asked point blank by the bishop… they’d ask a couple times cuz of course either the kid had no idea what he was talking about or his answer was a lie. Many kids learned how in their first interview cuz the bishop had to describe what it was and why people ( only bad people of course) did it then the kid goes home and figures it out lol. also they made sure to tell you it can make you gay. Packer gave a talk in a general conference priesthood session about it… see pamphlet narrative I attached. I have heard this crap brought up all the way through the 2000s in priesthood meeting too. Heck when smart phones came out and you could look up porn on them my bishop stormed into elders quorum one day and accused everyone of masturbating to porn with their phones. He said he had just left the relief society room full of women bawling their eyes out about their husbands porn use… asked my wife later what happened in RS and she verified about ten women were venting about it so now the whole ward knows. Like I mentioned earlier RS is a great source of info there’s always a couple of em who gotta spill the tea on their hubbys publicly. I hear all kinds of stuff from my wife back in the day. yep it was a time. human nature being what it is, likely the q15 and bishops carrying their water were totally guilty of the same thing they shamed others for. this pamphlet got issued to all of us when I was a kid. I’ve seen it around in the 1990s even. https://archive.org/details/ToYoungMenOnly/page/n2/mode/1up

Funny I just mentioned sealing cancellation. Went to lds Reddit and this was the first post there: “i just started the sealing cancellation process with my bishop- it asks for all sins i’ve committed since the day i got married, and to list anything whether or not it’s already been taken care of with priesthood authority. Why? I spoke to friends who had a sealing cancellation years ago and they didn’t have to do this. Also any insight in to what this process will look like are greatly appreciated. :)”

They don’t know cuz they don’t actually minister to people. Since when is the church concerned with an invasion of privacy? I distinctly remember a bishop asking 11.95 year old me if I masturbate. Mormon bishops and mission presidents have asked that forever… still do. Why about someone trying to cancel a sealing after a divorce? The form specifically asks you to list all sins committed even if they have already been confessed to a bishop. Yep no privacy there. “Jesus forgot about your sins, but he actually works for us so we need to revisit them. “ anyway- ministers who do their jobs will most likely know. Something about getting to know the people you minister to. someone like Robinson would have told a ministering bro about his situation. Kids brag on that stuff now. I still think the relief society pres is best source. When my wife was in presidency some crazy stuff got brought to them… mostly hubbys playing with himself to porn but there was plenty of wife beating, dui arrests and borderline child abuse accusations told to them. The women with crap hubbys love to vent to other women.

His ministering dude from church should know… the church isn’t Anti lgbtq or trans??? Remember they have to remains celibate. No problem disciplining unmarried heterosexual couples for living together

He was 22 living with his trans lover in his own place. What time is better than that?

Ok… He could have changed but apparently the only change was switching from teen boys to little girls.

Bundy was actively in the middle (1975) of his killing spree when he was baptized. He was excommunicated in 1975 after being convicted of kidnapping. he was a member while murdering people.

He was first disfellowshipped in 1993 (?) for two years for molesting a 13 year old boy. The church did not report the abuse to police. Neither did the parents it seems. fast forward between 2013 and 2015 while working for the church producing three different temple films, he molested a young girl. He was busted for it in 2019 and was sentenced to six years in prison.. Unknown if he has since been excommunicated. The first instance of molesting a boy only got him disfellowshipped. They should have kicked him out the first time.

Me a zealot for righteousness?? lol I openly don’t pay tithing. Drink coffee and beer etc. IDGA FLIP about righteousness. my post was not to solely remove sinners. I do think the church should clean up its rolls of inactives and criminals ( sinners I suppose) getting the roles cleaned up can accomplish a number of things: 1- elimination of bad press when an inactive member or career criminal brings attention to the church through their actions. This Charlie Kirk thing will be known to have been committed by a Mormon for a century. Wouldn’t be the case if after he stopped attending and lived with a trans girlfriend/ boyfriend (don’t know the setup) they cut the cord 2- makes future growth measurable against a real number instead of one still inflated by millions of lifetime inactive or baseball baptism victims. 3- focus on the active members. The church does teach to go after the one of 99, but in reality there really is no effort to do that.

Now you have posted four times on this thread. Keep up the good work! You are doing great!

I made one post. You and others contributed to the thread. Thanks for helping out. It takes a village.

I don’t care- the church should. Most organizations care how their members represent them.

Yet known child molesters are found on the rolls of the church. The guy who produced the temple endowment films is one of them. I guess child molestation isn’t a serious sin. 🙂

I don’t care if I’m counted as a member or not. The church SHOULD purge its roles of known inactives and convicted criminals as a means to protect its “good name.” I mean just this week two people come to light who are members (one inactive and the other probably active due to garment wearing) one of which is an assassin and the other a child porn trafficker all in the same incident. If the inactive had been purged and the other dude also purged because of his long list of criminal activity the church wouldn’t have the PR problem. Granted they just choose to ignore it so it goes away but people round the world read the news and know these two are Mormon. It’s one thing to have to keep tabs on your active members, but it is a whole different task having to answer to the actions of those who have not shown up to church in years or are chronically in trouble with the law. every org I have ever been a part of will purge you from the roles if you dont pay dues, attend meeting etc. why the church holds on to those who don’t tithe or otherwise participate at all is senseless… unless the theory that the truthfulness of the gospel is proved by the growth of membership numbers… oh there we go

My kids don’t need to be shunned and othered and neither do my wife and I. I put up with it in order to stay in the family. Lots of PIMO do the same thing.

Brigham approves

I’ll have to try it out. The deseret book by gilbert temple sells them. I don’t have a recommend and don’t know my membership number. I’ll see if they will sell me some. Not gonna buy em, just want to see if I can. I think I’ll have to prove membership somehow. They are not that bad, but truly the only thing in their lives is church stuff. If you ain’t in to that there’s not much of a place for you. Last few years interestingly we have had lots of grandkids bailing on the church, coming out of the closet, non temple marriages etc. at least the open talk of contempt for those types of people has basically ceased. Now that they have all been affected by an aspect of it. I remember after the family proclamation came out my stake pres (former) father waxed poetic at a family get together about it and how the gays are ruining this country. They should all swing from a rope… oh boy. Good Mormons! All those grandkids sitting around hearing that are now married adults… some with lgbtq kids anyway at least no one it openly talking like that anymore.

From the church General Handbook: “32.2.3 Protect the Integrity of the Church The third purpose is to protect the integrity of the Church. Restricting or withdrawing a person’s Church membership may be necessary if his or her conduct significantly harms the Church (see Alma 39:11⁠). The integrity of the Church is not protected by concealing or minimizing serious sins—but by addressing them.” the church is very much concerned with image.

Messy? I think most are just fine. The problem from a PR perspective is why let a child molester, bank robber, scam artist etc remain as members? inactive?? That doesn’t make someone messy, just makes them disinterested. They should get purged too unless there is a compelling reason to keep them on the rolls. This is where the failed ministering program can come in handy. If they would just do their jobs they can be the ones who find out (from those who cooperate with them) reasons for non-attendance. They could even show up with pre-written resignation papers and they can sign em. They can report that to the bishop and he can have them removed from the rolls if necessary. Obviously this would have to be authorized from the top , but logistically it isn’t a stretch to pull off. They can at least get rid of a large percentage of people who have zero interest in the church. end result is church reported numbers are realistic. With a ~25% ish attendance rate the membership truly is only about 4-5 million ish. Huge difference.