Notatbm

https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/s/rpsnipVagc sorry but it’s a video. It’s only two ish minutes. I know ur not gonna watch it, but it is of the lds lawyer testimony to city council

I take it you didn’t follow the Fairview steeple fiasco. The church lawyers argued steeples were neccessary. Also local area authorities sent out correspondence to the temple district encouraging members write in and mention steeple heights important to worship. listen to the city council arguments by church lawyers. also- if you have the time

I guess steeples weren’t necessary after all. Why does the church lie? temple on left is a rendering of Austria temple. No steeple.

I don’t have a bunch of time right now but read this for additional perspective. The good news is a righteous Mormon can not only go the the celestial kingdom, he can become a God. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng

You are correct. The only Church Christ recognizes is the Mormon church… according to Mormons. Everyone who seeks exaltation will have to join, be baptized and confirmed a member of the Mormon church. Then if they are married will need to get sealed in the temple to their spouse and whatever family members accept Mormonism. Even those who have already died will have to accept the gospel according to Mormons. If they do, the proxy ordinance which was possibly already done for them will count as the ordinances performed. If they have not been done yet, they have to wait till they are. The proxy ordinances are mostly what goes on in Mormon temples. The rest is ordinances for members their first time through, sealings (marriages) and “second anointing” for a very select few. Read up on the second anointing, that one is pretty wild. All I can and will say here is having parents who climbed the Mormon ladder a bit and were connected to brass in salt lake, dementia sure brought out some interesting stuff that a lucid person would not let see the light of day. the Mormon church’s position is there are no valid ordinances on earth unless performed with the authority of Mormon priesthood keys (authority). Basically a baptism in the Catholic church, Baptist church, etc is not valid nor is anything else any other church does. Thats where Brad Wilcox comment about playing church comes in. I’m not sure what your last paragraph is saying so I won’t comment on it.

Nope- I am aware of what holy week is. I even mentioned earlier both Palm Sunday and Easter Sunday were a part of that, but the churches website says we do not observe holy week. If they were aware Easter and Palm Sunday were a part of holy week....they are aware... they wouldn't have coupled it with Holy week since Mormons conveniently disregard all the rest of it in terms of formal recognition, observance or celebration. Holy week in its entirety is a non-Mormon. Celebrating Easter is a Mormon tradition so why not just call it easter Sunday and move on? As one of my previous references showed the term "Holy Week" was mentioned in general conference for the very first time in 2023.... no matter how much you want it to be, it is not a Mormon thing. It may end up being that way though, I mean the restored church keeps changing what it believes so anything is possible.

I acknowledged and corrected it. Am I supposed to make some kind of formal apology to everyone for potentially inadvertently deceiving a person as to the actual title of Brad Wilcox? Look- once that tape went public do you think for even one minute he didnt have a sit down with either the first presidency or at least a couple apostles where damage control was discussed? He is (was) a General Officer of the Church and in such capacity he represented the church in his statements at that fireside and apparently in many others as he had the talk memorized. If the church does not like what he said, they make him do an apology and they get final say in what that apology consists of before he gets online with his wife and repents or whatever for his racist comments. That is how the church distanced itself from those statements. While he did apologize for the race thing, he did not apologize for the playing church commentary which was disgusting. Now that the church got their mitts on him and corrected what they thought was in error, they left the playing church rant alone so now they own the commentary on it. Now it may as well have been an apostle who said it because they didn't have a problem with it. If you believe for one minute they couldn't shut him down, make him apologize for the whole thing and remove him from his calling you have another thing coming. Since they did not do that, church headquarters (Apostles or General Authorities) now own it. The lack of an apology for those really crappy comments about ALL OTHER RELIGIONS IN THE WORLD are now approved by the Mormon church and in reality it doesn't matter if he was a general officer or general authority.

The LDS church is essentially trying to slow-roll its way into the average every day christian world with re-branding and "lowering" its own standards in order to blend in and not seem so weird. Now deceased apostle Jeffrey Holland essentially said this in a Q&A event and in the middle of it caught himself and changed the topic. There may be exceptions, but I am not aware of any Christian religion who recognizes Mormons as true Christians. This is because they do not believe in the trinity as the Christian world does. That is the primary argument. Anyway- here is a short list of recent changes (within 40 yrs or so) that illustrate the gradual shift. It is such a slow shif in fact that many members will gaslight other members and act as if we have always done things this way: 1-Lowering of dress standards for the youth, allowing the wearing of a crucifix, using worship bands at youth events 2-Changiong the definition of modest dress for women by allowing them to wear tank-top like clothing as opposed to always having their shoulders covered. A woman exposing her shoulders was considered to be presenting themselves a "pornography" to men 3- Changing the Home Teaching program to "Ministering" which is a term pretty much historically not used by Mormons, but regular Christians sure do 4- Up to three years ago, no one was talking about Palm Sunday or the rest of the events on the Liturgical calendar except for Easter. traditions of other churches are not anything Mormons historically do such as celebrate palm Sunday, last supper, ash Wednesday etc. Only thing ever celebrated and talked about has been Easter. Sure the events leading up to the resurrection have been discussed, but they have never been the subject of celebration. 5- Using the term "Restored Church" to refer to mormonism while conversing with members of other faiths is a recent flex where one can talk civilly while at the same time remind the member of the non-mormon religion that Mormons are the only ones with the true restored gospel. Eventually the Mormon church will be indistinguishable from most of the others and members will start to act as if we have always done stuff this way. Is it wrong to change? Certainly not, but when up to this time we openly stated we do not celebrate holy week well they need to just come out and say ok now we do.....but only certain parts. The Church website is in conflict with itself as I initially posted. As for the whore of the world issue- that was taught for a long time and even in the temple there was a script line about Popes being bought up by Satan with gold and silver. That was changed in 1990, but no church leader has come out and stated what was stated in the temple was false doctrine (I wont hold my breath). At least I have never seen evidence of that. The LDS church has a policy of not issuing apologies so don't expect one from the Mormon church to the Pope anytime soon. I don't feel that way about Catholics and never have, but i know what I was taught and it will be at least 50 years until every last Mormon alive who was taught that or heard it in the temple is dead and gone. I do not believe every mormon who was taught that believes it, but it definitely was a thing.

Since I now have your attention are you gonna clear this up? Or continue to let that outright lie just sit here? 1- cfr where I said we don’t celebrate Easter. That is a straight up lie. I never said that

Are you saying that I knew he was a general officer and lied and called him a general authority?

Ok wait a minute… just a few pages back you corrected me and I acknowledged and corrected it…. Right?? Are you as open to correction as you say I should be? Oh my bad… he was a “general officer” in a position of very high influence with the youth… esp juvenile male priesthood holders.”

If you re-read jays question to me he specifically quoted me and in that quote I make the correction about the GA/ GO thing after you ( I think it was you) corrected me. If he thinks brad is a ga after that then it’s on him. Whether it’s a ga or not, he wanted to watch the video so I sent him the link. Nothing in my response to him is dishonest. Try again…. Or go do the work and read through all my posts to make sure you are right.

Are you saying I have not EVER admitted I have made an incorrect statement here?

That does not mean Mormons celebrate it. We never have until these last couple years and the lame attempts at doing so. I’m not denying it is biblical. The church’s own statement says Mormons do not observe Holy Week. Palm Sunday is part of Holy Week. “Latter-day Saints conduct Easter Sunday services but do not follow the religious observances of Ash Wednesday, Lent, or Holy Week. ”

You can always quit reading and responding to my posts if they upset you. As far as the honest or dishonest claim goes. Just because I don’t factor in every nuance doesn’t make a statement a lie. You need to make better efforts to prove me a liar instead of calling me that for not broadcasting every nuance. Nuance can go on ad infinitum. prove me a liar and I’ll concede it to you and I believe we have engaged in that manner in the past. Just know any statement that I have ever made here and was then asked for a cfr I have provided it. True I can misunderstand things and after discussion in some instances I have corrected or retracted my statement (s), but I do not knowingly lie in my posts. that said if you consider yourself a true Christian you best refrain from throwing out accusations of lies when out of all the times I have been accused of that on this board I do not recall a single instance where the accuser has been correct. I am open to correction in that assertion, but I believe every single instance of being accused of lying it was not true. I cannot say the same of some other posters here. Have called out a few for lying about statements I have made and in many instances do not reply or defend their statement. Some continue to do it without proving their position after being asked to. I’m pretty sure if I was repeatedly posting false material, making false statements and outright lying I would have been banned by now.

Celebrating Palm Sunday is a tradition.. one Mormons never celebrated

Yes sir. Never had a beef with the Catholics

Oh the Mormon church and Catholics have been reaching out to each other. I do not deny that. The fact what was taught about Catholic Church and their creeds is what this whole thread was about. The Mormon church never did anything to celebrate Easter other than Easter Sunday services. All the rest of it was what everyone else did. The Mormon church does not observe Holy Week, yet now in the past few years they are talking up Palm Sunday and Holy Week. That was never a thing. The Mormon church is slowly taking up the creeds and traditions of the other churches which have been long taught are corrupt and false.

Yep you are spot on. Mormon stories and radio free Mormon podcasts also have extended discussions about it where they point at church doctrine, practices etc to explain where Brad gets his material and opinions. Very informative. The show hosts are /were lifelong Mormons and even a few apologists so their opinions and feedback are based on experience with being members of the church. https://radiofreemormon.org/2022/02/radio-free-mormon-233-the-brad-wilcox-imbroglio/

I never said the church bought the letter. They did take possession of it after it was purchased ( like u said) and once the contents of it got public, oaks had to go out and calm the masses and explain how it was validated as authentic. The prophets got suckered. Thanks for the reference. I may use that another time. I learn something new every day.

If you have the pope, that is the Catholic Church. Unless you think the rank and file members run things there. If the devil owns the pope, what does that then make the Catholic Church? By extension it makes it a servant of the devil. I don’t believe that, but that’s what it means. the newest member of the q15. He went on his mission in 1989 which means he went thru the temple prior to the 1990 change. I am older than he is so I was taught that too. Was the prophet (s) wrong to have taught that?

All the more reason to discount what I say… even if it’s true. gee who else said something like that?

I don’t recall any nuance at all. I have heard this repeatedly in church and in my home ( father was the stake pres) for my entire adolescent life. Seminary, Sunday school, priesthood all in the morridor. I have heard the whore of Babylon verbiage even as recent as the time the Rome temple being dedicated. Now unless all my leaders and the prophets and the temple script were all teaching false doctrine then so be it. It is more of a case of the church trying to play nice since it has realized it has so few friends in the world. When Mormons can team up with Catholics to discriminate against gays re “ non-traditional marriage” lol or petitioning courts to rule that churches don’t need to report child molesters then it is in the best interest of the church to quit talking trash about others. If you doubt my sincerity that’s on you. I just like to make sure people know how it is/was and my opinion on it. I suppose I can question your honesty or motivations in your posts , but I find that doing that just distracts from the discussion. while I was growing up Jerald and Sandra tanner were often called out by name and maligned because they openly criticized the church. It was usually said their criticism wasn’t true because they were anti-Mormon and plug your ears la la la. Lo and behold all these years later they have largely been vindicated. The church just engaged in name calling to deflect from the discussion. the church would have done well to listen to them re the salamander letter. Instead the church got sucked up in that mess despite a whole slew of “prophets” being involved and looked like a bunch of circus clowns once the truth came out. Should have at least listened. There probably would have been two less murders in salt lake that year if they had listened to the tanners. now we have a prophet who was the face of the church for that mess who went public to explain the validity of the letter to the members and then later had to admit the church was wrong and they got scammed. discernment?? I think not

starting at about 37 min thru 45 ish brad is a pretty good speaker and is very popular in Utah in terms of live speaking engagements. This is at a tri-stake fireside g for youth so this is probably in a stake center ( largest of the regular meetinghouses we have) and likely was full so anywhere from 5-700 people. I find most church speakers and topics mind numbing boring but he can keep a crowd awake and off their phones. id listen to the whole thing. edit/add commentary: many will say brads comments don’t reflect the beliefs of the members. Possibly, but one must consider when making that statement that he has been giving this talk for years and to thousands of youth and young adults. Their leaders are there too. If it’s soo controversial and no one believes that stuff how come no one reported him till this video came out?? well two answers: 1- he was reported and no one had a problem with it 2- he wasn’t reported because talking like that is /was not controversial.

What about the temple script re the popes? Mckonkie didn’t just make this all up out of thin air. It was taught and continued to be until 1990. Long enough for the entire q15 to be taught and believe it to include the newest member. Think they all changed their mind overnight?