Notatbm

I'm much more clear on my stance than the church is on whether or not they want to be on satan's side or Jesus'. It is only confusing because the church does not believe in informed consent. . One only has to listen to a few episodes to see that he isnt lying, making stuff up etc. Has real guests who use real names etc to share their experiences in the church both good and bad. I can use just one of many examples in my life...first time through temple. I went to temple prep and learned nothing. My first time through was a 100% ambush. I hated it and I only went back through when I could not get out of it. The church has created the informed consent monster all on its own. Instead of owning it, they sick lawyers on people who expose it. The history can be included in the missionary discussions. How can they possibly dunk an investigator after just a few discussions if they have to spend all this time teaching the craziness in the church? That is an oft used excuse why the down and dirty cant be taught to our own lifelong members...not enough time with it being taken up with CFM or some other program. A church rep has admitted the essays were slow rolled in order to... Ill let him explain: https://www.Mormon*******.***/elder-steven-e-snow-lds-gospel-topics-essays-not-advertisex/#:~:text=BONUS: Elder Steven E.,share them with your friends.

Yep everyone knows the prophets have been inconsistent. That is a symptom of not actually following Jesus' guidance if they get any at all. He is not wishy washy. That is why this whole issue of the church trying to protect its right to use the term mormon (which the most recently deceased prophet declared a major victory for satan) is stupid. Makes the church look like a bully....kinda like the fake steeple height controversy.

I’m surprised as well. Funny how the church wants to protect their use of satan’s victory. Just goes to show the emphasis on the use of TCOJCOLDS has failed to keep the church from being identified as Mormons. I’d have thought if it was Jesus’ plan it would just work instead of having to get lawyers (who Jesus openly criticized) to use their craft to force people to do his will. i think in order to be consistent they need to sue EVERYONE who uses the word “Mormon” in their websites, podcasts, tv shows etc who are not directly acting on behalf of the church. Being selective just exposes the hatred.

It’s all about getting John dehlin. They hate that guy. He has been using the name for years and no suits. Why now?? Probably because he gets attention and they don’t like it. Nothing like people using their real names on camera for four hours spilling whatever drama they experienced in the “Mormon” church. I have listened to a couple hundred episodes while commuting some years back. Very few of the stories sounded outlandish. Most aligned with my experience in the church. The experiences they share are not what the Mormon church wants circulating because to an outsider it sounds crazy.

I was replying to this comment by Nehor: “I think an acknowledgement that the Church (through BYU) practiced conversion therapy and then stopped would make this seem more honest as opposed to ‘continuing’ to oppose conversion therapy suggesting it was always that way.” It’s a joke re oaks previous comment it never happened while he was pres of byu.

Boy the church sure enjoys a super low mortality rate. Must be the word of wisdom keeping everyone alive…. Or just keeping people on the rolls till age 110 even though no one has seen em in fifty years.

Very respected

I’m north of 55 y/o. I vividly recall my stake pres saying all gays should be hanged… that’s my dad. My bishop essentially taught me and others in my ward how to masturbate: Bishop: hi nearly 12y/o Notatbm… do you masturbate? notatbm: A dunno what’s that? Bishop: describes how male masturbation is done and why people do it then asked do you do that Notatbm: no way and then goes home and tries it. same thing happened with all my friends at the time. church is crazy Yea I remember the brook shields thing. Also blue lagoon

If only we still had the polygamy thing going. I could just tell a couple of my wives were gonna all party together.. the lord commanded it. Or better get a couple of the most recent high school grads and marry em real quick for a good time. Fifty plus me surely deserves an adolescent (18-19 yo) wife or two lol. Totally normal.

I suppose I shouldn’t be. After all masturbation was the talk of the town back then and kimball running around telling people it makes you gay. the church has (s) tons of elders and high priests who have sex with young boys so I guess it all checks out. Showing pictures of nude men , women and adolescents to college boys and measuring their penises should seem ok.

The terminology used was adolescents and adults. Why not just say “adults” if only adult pics were used? Are these people that stupid and did no one who approved this research not question the use of pics of adolescents?

I had either watched or listened to an interview several years ago where a participant at byu described his experiences and specifically stated gay porn pics were used. I don’t recall his name, but this discussion led me to search specifically for evidence of that. The McBride paper is the first one I have ever read and frankly I’m shocked temple recommend holders couldn’t find any better topic of research to do and went to this level. They should be embarrassed. i have read a couple fair articles about it and they were fairly detailed I guess. This link I am posting below specifically described porn was used by McBride, but somehow whatever team collaborated on the article all missed the fact nude images of adolescents were used. I’m thinking they are smarter than that and it is no accident that info was omitted. as you are connected in some way to fair maybe you could reach out to them and let them know they either purposely or accidentally left out the use of nude adolescent images? Perhaps they can publish a correction. ?? https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/home-page/current-events/aversion-therapy-for-homosexuality-in-scientific-historical-context

What did you think of the use of pictures of clothed and nude adolescents? I’m wondering how people read this doc and completely miss that? Sounds like some LE agency needs to do some digging to see if this involved child porn. Surely the researcher is still alive or many of the study participants are.

Yep… bunch of wack jobs. The whole lot of them

https://ia800400.us.archive.org/16/items/BYUaversionTherapy/McBride Effect of Visual Stimuli in Electric Aversion Therapy BYU Dissertation Aug 1976_text.pdf pp46 of the actual pdf… described how study subjects could avoid being shocked or what would cause them to be shocked. No where in the pdf could I find evidence the test subject shocked themselves

and in practice he allowed a student to use nude pics from playgirl and playboy "like" magazines....doesnt sound much like the statue of david EFFECT OF VISUAL STIMULI IN ELECTRIC AVERSION THERAPY Max Ford McBride Department of Psychology Ph.D. Degree, August 1976 ABSTRACT Two experimental groups of seven subjects each received Behavior therapy for male homosexuality which incorporated aversive conditioning and assertion training. The intent of the study was to determine whether use of nude male and female pictures are a necessary requisite for successful treatment. Indices of change included subjective rating of male and female slides used in treatment, pleythysmographic impact measured by penile volume change to a standard set of male and female slides not used in treatment, and a self-report questionnaire that measured sexual orientation. Results showed that treatment was effective in reducing homosexual responsiveness. It was found that nude male pictures used in treatment were more effective in ,d ’minishi ng sexual responsiveness to male stimuli. It was also found that the initial use oi nude female pictures may inhibit fantasy activity during treatment. COMMITTEE APPROVAL: D. Eugene Thorne, Committee Chairman Reed Payne, Committee Member David G. Weight, Committee Member Darhl M. Pedersen, Department Chairman No one brought it in...McBride provided it or so it would seem Thorne didnt care enough obviously,,, he blessed off this paper

Your buddy McBride used pornographic images of nude adolescents, men and women in his study... at least that is what he wrote and BYU gave him his degree so I guess it was BYU approved..... I swear people who get into studying this crap need to get locked up. I bet McBride had a temple recommend too. I read the whole paper I posted below. What a freak show. This would be a good primer for the next sequel of SAW "Pre-Post Rating of Male and Female Therapy VCS Male therapy VCS were randomly selected by E. from a series of slides that had been prepared by several homosexuals who had been previously treated by Dr. D. Eugene Thome. Female therapy VCS were chosen randomly from women's fashion magazines and Playboy-like magazines. Male and female therapy VCS were randomly arranged, they were not hierarchly scheduled (Thome, 1968). Therapy VCS was rated on a scale from 1 to 9. A rating of 1 signified sexual repulsion, 5 signified sexual neutrality, and 9 high sexual interest. Each slide was viewed until S was able to reliably rate it. Pleythvsmographic Measure of VCS Impact A phallometric test using a pleythysmographic mercury-inrubber-strain-gauge was used to assess physiological arousal to (visually projected) male and female slides before and after treatment. The apparatus used was patterned after Bancroft et al. (1966). Changes in penile volume were measured in mm increase in diameter of the penis. The measure used was the largest increase m penile circumference that occurred during the first 10 minute period following presentation of the first standard VCS . A reading of 25 mm represented a full erection (Bancroft, 1970). An arbitrary cut-off point between erotic and non-erotic was between 0.4 and 0.6 mm (Bancroft & Staples, 19 74). Male and female nude VCS were chosen randomly by the E from a series of pictures taken from recent Playboy/Playgirl-like magazines. Clothed stimuli were chosen from several popular women's and men's fashion magazines. These pictures were then made up into 35 mm slides. The slides were simple poses; there were no overt sexual activities portrayed or implied in any of the slides" pp53-55 "(male standard VCS were composed of nude, semi-nude and clothed adolescent and adult males in various poses). It appears because the compilation of the standard VCS slides was diverse, it was not difficult for S, to attend to or identify with some of the slide material and sustain an erection." pp73 WHAT???? nude, semi-nude and clothed adolescent and adult males in various poses?? What the fetch??? lol this just gets better the deeper one digs. Holy crap!! BYU- the Lord's University ... they ought to be proud of this one https://ia800400.us.archive.org/16/items/BYUaversionTherapy/McBride Effect of Visual Stimuli in Electric Aversion Therapy BYU Dissertation Aug 1976_text.pdf Hmmm playgirl and playboy "like" magazines... sounds like something BYU honor code office would have regarded as porn. Re the shaved armpits and legs. Well yea, no one wants to date a wookie.

Ok show how the works cited at Wikipedia are lies. I’m not saying you are incorrect, but you need to prove it. the fact male homosexuals were provided an environment to place measurement devices on their own penises and look at porn at BYU is a sure sign to me the school and the church is wack. Perverted even.

At BYU, gay men were subjected to electroshock therapy, having leads put on their arms and a girth measuring device placed on their penis in order to measure arousal or lack thereof. Once placed, the person was then shown nude images of males and then their “reaction” was measured. If there was an erection, they were shocked on the arm. anyway real choice stuff being done at byu at the approval of the church. Touching penises and showing college boys porn pics. The very last paragraph of this is interesting. “Aversion therapy at BYU edit See also: Sexual orientation change efforts and the LDS Church BYU's Honor Code office required some students reported for homosexual behavior to undergo electroshock and vomit aversion therapies in the 1970s.[8]: 155 [96]: 84  The on-campus program lasted into the mid-90s.[97]: 90  An intervention-style approach to "curing" homosexuality by therapists and unlicensed individuals gradually emerged in the LDS community as it became clear that the church leaders' self-help recommendations were not working.[97]: 89  One of the main efforts was BYU's aversion therapy program from 1959[5]: 377, 379  to the mid-90s[97]: 90  which used mostly electrical shocks to the arm or genitals, or sometimes induced-vomiting while showing the participants erotic imagery.[98]Shortly after the May 21, 1959, meeting of BYU president Ernest Wilkinson and apostles on the executive committee of the Church Board of Education discussing the "growing problem in our society of homosexuality" BYU began administering "aversion therapy" to "cure", "repair", or "reorient" homosexual feelings among Mormon males.[5]: 377, 379  The on-campus aversion therapy program lasted through the 1960s, 70s, 80s,[100] and into the mid-1990s.[97]: 90 [101] BYU mental health counselors, LDS bishops, stake presidents, mission presidents, general authorities, and the BYU Standards Office (equivalent to today's Honor Code Office) all referred young men to the BYU program.[102] Because of religious considerations, on September 22, 1969, BYU administration decided to reduce the amount of the on-campus "electrical aversive therapy" used to treat (among other things) what was deemed "sexual deviancy", though, the program continued.[103][45]: 82  From 1971 to 1980 BYU's president Dallin H. Oaks[45]: 32  had Gerald J. Dye over the University Standards Office[104] (renamed the Honor Code Office in 1991). Dye stated that during that decade part of the "set process" for homosexual BYU students referred to his office for "less serious" offenses was to require that they undergo some form of therapy to remain at BYU, and that in special cases this included "electroshock and vomiting aversion therapies."[8]: 155  In an independent BYU newspaper article two men describe their experience with the BYU Aversion therapy program during the early 1970s.[105]: 162  After confessing to homosexual feelings they were referred to the BYU Counseling Center where the electroshock aversion therapy took place using pornographic pictures of males and females. Jon, one of the individuals, implied that the treatment was completely ineffective.[65] The experiences match most reports which state that shock therapy was ineffective in changing sexual orientation.[106]: xxvi  From 1975 to 1976 Max Ford McBride, a student at BYU, conducted electroshock aversion therapy on 17 men (with 14 completing the treatment) using a male arousal measuring device placed around the penis and electrodes on the bicep. He published a dissertation on the use of electrical aversive techniques to treat ego-dystonic homosexuality.[107] The thesis documents the use of "Electrical Aversion Therapy" on 14 homosexual men using a "phallometric" apparatus, "barely tolerable" shocks, and "nude male visual-cue stimuli."[108][107] Although it is not publicly published whether all top LDS Church leaders were aware of the electroshock aversion therapy program,[109]: 1  it is known that apostles Spencer W Kimball, Mark E. Peterson, and now apostle Dallin H. Oaks were,[5]: 379  and leaders involved in LDS Social Services thought the therapy was effective.[110][53]: 164–165 At the time, homosexuality was considered by the medical community as a psychiatric condition,[111][112] and aversion therapy was one of the more common methods used to try to change it.[113] In 1966, Martin Seligman had conducted a study at the University of Pennsylvania that demonstrated positive results, which led to "a great burst of enthusiasm about changing homosexuality [that] swept over the therapeutic community."[114] After flaws were demonstrated in Seligman's experiments, aversion therapy fell out of popularity, and in 1994 the American Medical Association issued a report that stated "aversion therapy is no longer recommended for gay men and lesbians."[115] Participant in the 1975–76 BYU study Don Harryman wrote that he experienced "burns on [his] arms and ... emotional trauma."[106]: 26–28 [116]Another participant, John Clarence Cameron, who wrote a play called "14" about his experiences, said "it didn't change anything except increase my self-loathing. I didn't know the ramifications of the experiment until years later."[109]Cameron stated that he "would like everyone to tell the truth, admit the mistakes that took place, and stop trying to act like it didn't happen"[117]Another one of the test subjects described his experiences, stating "No one wanted to change more than I did. I did everything within my power to change, and it didn't alter my homosexuality one whit. All I had learned to do was suppress much of my personality ... I was shutting down, turning off.... I was making my life miserable by a pervasive denial of who I am."[118] Connell O'Donovan,[119] Val Mansfield and Drew Staffanson described undergoing aversion therapy and Raymond King describes his involvement as an intern with the BYU psychology department's electroshock aversion therapy program in the 1996 short documentary Legacies.[120][121] The documentary 8: The Mormon Proposition also contains an interview wherein Bruce Barton states that BYU coerced him into vomit aversion therapy, as well as electroshock therapy, which later precipitated his suicide attempt.[122] Jayce Cox also reported his experience with BYU shock therapy[123] and suicidal ideation in articles and an MTV documentary.[127] Scott Burton discusses the burn marks on his wrists he developed when undergoing electroshock therapy from ages 13 to 15 at the hands of a Mormon therapist by request from his Mormon parents.[128] In 2011 BYU admitted to the past use of electroshock therapy but denies that it had ever used vomit-inducing therapy "in the BYU Counseling Center"[108] (which has been in the Wilkinson Student Center since 1964). However, the students that underwent the treatment have stated that the vomit therapy took place in the basement of the Psychology department's Joseph F. Smith Family Living Center (built in 1957, demolished in 2002).[120][129] In 2021 Dallin Oaks claimed that electroshock aversion therapy "never went on under my administration" at BYU while he was the university's president from 1971 to 1980, while a BYU student produced a master's thesis on the electroshock program at BYU in 1976.[130][131]“ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigham_Young_University_LGBTQ_history

Along with that acknowledgement a double down by oaks that it absolutely never happened while he was president at byu… well the shocking part of it.

I do recall yesterday I advised you to quit engaging with me if you were not happy with the experience. Perhaps you should take my advice. You may find it will make you a bit less confrontational and angry. Take care

Hearsay

I don’t disagree on your opinion re the identity stuff. Was kinda trolling pyreaux as he was the one who made a big deal out of it and saying the only way I can be an ex Mormon is to actually get exed or resign. Didn’t matter what I thought.

Arrogant??? Lol just because someone trots out a dream they had the night before doesn’t make it true. Anyone can say they saw Jesus. The way these guys talk about it they know everyone except a few believers are not buying it. Best course of action is to say nothing at all because you can’t prove it one bit. The world is full of preachers and other wackos saying god / Jesus talks to them in visions. Doesn’t make it true.

Someone else here is saying kimball announced it over the pulpit in gen conference. I’m not so sure quoting another prophet counts but the poster said it did. I read the quote and I didn’t take away that kimball himself saw Jesus first hand. If he did, why would he quote someone else’s experience?