Notatbm

How does service relate to wedding gifts? I gave my take on how I do wedding gifts and why/ what I give.

Where did I take the position someone lying to their bishop is proof a religion is false? Now you are making stuff up I definitely never said. I’m empathizing with calm as I know people who lie or withhold the truth to avoid hurting others. I know you dont like me or my posts that is quite clear. If you need to make up false statements about what I just posted perhaps you should find a different hobby. Nowhere in my post did I say what you said I did. Libel much?

Well if the newly minted couple doesn’t tell everyone about all their issues, they will have to figure out what to do with the gift cards. I’m fairly confident 99% of kids can make good use of em.

There are many who do the same with temple recommends (lie to get one) and do it for years to avoid disappointing their parents. Meanwhile they don’t pay full tithe, drink coffee /alcohol, rarely go to church etc. bishop’s discernment fails, they keep their recommends and they do it for a whole generation till mom and dad die. I don’t blame em.

Texas Roadhouse , Chili’s or Panera are all safe gift cards. We also might give a gift card to Cheesecake Factory for dessert after a date. $20 on that gets them a slice to share (dont get em fat right off) and they can leave the balance for a tip. vegetarians just get two squares of alfalfa from me. I toss it in the bed of their truck or tie it off on the hood.

Thanks for your response

You actually taught it and didn’t even realize it. As for “always” which it would seem many posters are hung up in was My recollection. I do not ever remember any mention of the expositor in church without it being also labeled as lies in pretty much the same sentence. one would probably be hard pressed to find church materials outside of maybe institute or some byu history course that goes in-depth on the expositor. I believe the church would prefer we not dissect it as it leads to even more questions.

Historically the church has not discussed the contents of the expositor and whether what was written is true, not true etc. at least in my fifty plus years it has not been discussed in seminary, Sunday school, priesthood, mia, over the pulpit in sacrament meeting or conference. I may have just missed it. Anyway- yea I’m not doing a research project for you. You are welcome to do so and publish your findings. I’ll even read it.

I didn’t say whether it was right or wrong. I just maintain the position Joseph smith lied about it. A lot. here is a good modern day example of “parsing” words: missionary: hi we r members of tcojcolds, would you like to hear about Jesus Christ? investigator: aren’t you guys the Mormons? missionary: no sir, we are missionaries from tcojcolds. that’s Mormon lying for you right there. Joseph Smith invented it

Yep… cv75 acknowledge the iirc part and asked for several examples it was taught. I provided three examples of which one actually said “viscious lies.” he hasn’t been back to comment on it so he is possibly satisfied the church actually did teach it.

I’ll pass. Sounds boring

I should work for FAIR. I did say “IIRC” in my initial post did I not? Do you know what that means? I’ll help you out: IIRC" is an acronym that stands for "if I remember correctly" or "if I recall correctly", according to some online sources. It's commonly used in online communication, like text messages and social media, to indicate that the speaker isn't 100% sure about the information they're sharing, but it's what they recall from memory.

What charge? There’s a few in there

We have had several wedding in our family this past year and also of the kids of our church friends. Every single one of them registered with Amazon. Usually a bunch of household items and you can also contribute to a honeymoon fund. I think it goes to a gift card. Several years ago when I went into the Corporate world a fellow Mormon buddy told me to not be stingy when it came to wedding gifts for co-workers or their kids. I asked what he meant and he said be generous, not Mormon! I was like what?? He said $25 bucks is an insult. He said Mormons are cheap cuz all their disposable income went to tithing. He wasn’t wrong. Most of our income after all expenses was eaten up by tithing there was no way I’d be able to give several gifts per year costing a few hundo each as was customary here at this office and in my follow-on non Mormon circle. Our office was big enough we had a couple per year not to mention other non Mormon friends. my rule of thumb… Mormon wedding ~ $50. Non Mormon $200 min. The expectations are just different. We usually just do cash because they ask for it. If we know them personally we also bring a card to the wedding or reception that has a note in it and a gift card to a restaurant.

Is slander really all that different than “viscious lies?” Actually in the case of the expositor we are talking about”libel” but that is just verbal vs printed word. Same thing though. Either one is based on a lie. slander 1 of 2noun slan·der ˈslan-dər 1 : the making of false statements that damage another's reputation 2 : a false and harmful oral statement about a person the church … err the Nauvoo city council passed a law (ex post facto) outlawing “libel” and then went and trashed the expositor. Viscious is just an adjective the church added to the lying part to make it more… you know more bad. The church is just as guilty as the expositor in terms of making inflammatory statements not to mention creating a law after the fact to go after the paper with. Thats obviously how Jesus would have done it.

Parsing words is just a nice way of describing lying.

I did say “if I recall correctly iirc.” Proved it with a lesson manual we used to teach the little kids with. Joseph smith himself said they ( expositor) were lying about his practicing polygamy. Perhaps the church can now feel safe in coming out and just straight up say Joseph smith was a liar when it came to polygamy. a carefully worded denial falls clearly within the definition of a lie according to to the church’s own definition of lying: “There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest. The Lord is not pleased with such dishonesty, and we will have to account for our lies. Satan would have us believe it is all right to lie. He says, “Yea, lie a little; … there is no harm in this” (⁠2 Nephi 28:8⁠). Satan encourages us to justify our lies to ourselves. Honest people will recognize Satan’s temptations and will speak the whole truth, even if it seems to be to their disadvantage.” look, I merely made a comment about the church recognizing th ed expositor as a legitimate source of information which is true. I was taught growing up ( also the primary manual says as much) that the expositor was a lie. next we will see Sandra tanner used as a consultant to the correlation committee.

“Order to Destroy Nauvoo Expositor Press 10 June 1844 Nauvoo City Council met and continued discussing the Nauvoo Expositor. Council passed ordinance against libel, declared the Nauvoo Expositor and its press a public nuisance, and ordered JS to remove them. 1 JS ordered city marshal to abate nuisance by destroying press and copies of newspaper found in printing office, which was carried out. 2 That evening, JS delivered discourse to those who carried out destruction and approved of their actions, Nauvoo, Illinois. 3” https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/event/order-to-destroy-nauvoo-expositor-press

It is noteworthy that the church uses this as a credible source to establish Joseph smith practiced polygamy. That is the very thing he lied about doing back then and among the reasons the expositor was destroyed. Iirc he even ordered all copies of the paper to be destroyed as well. Why would they cite a source that Joseph accused of being false? I guess the church had just found another way to call him a liar in a nice way.

Institute manual lesson #23 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/foundations-of-the-restoration-teacher-material-2019?lang=eng “ The Nauvoo Expositor was an anti-Mormon newspaper that slandered the Prophet and other Saints and called for the repeal of the Nauvoo Charter. “ SLANDER This exact statement is repeated in the Joseph Smith “Teachings of the Prophets” manual chapter 46 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith?lang=eng https://archive.org/details/Primary5/page/n218/mode/1up lesson 37 “Some enemies of the Church believed that if they got rid of Joseph Smith, the Church would fall apart. These men started a newspaper in which they told many vicious lies about Joseph Smith. The members of the Church were angry about these lies. Joseph Smith, who was mayor of Nauvoo at the time, called a meeting of the city council, which was composed of both Church members and nonmembers. The city council declared the newspaper a "public nuisance" and ordered the town marshal to destroy the printing press used to print the newspaper.” All kids ages 8-11 were taught this lesson from 2014 till probably when CFM started.. so at least four years every 8-11 year old was taught this. as you said, i did state it was as I recalled. I have never once heard in any discussion about the expositor in church attributing any truth to anything in it. That combined with having read various things over the years in church manuals I was surprised to see the Church refer to it as a credible source. im sure if someone with lots of time peruses the archives there is likely more.

In the newest release of information reference practice of plural marriage the church lists the Nauvoo Expositor as a “credible contemporary source.” Iirc the church always taught the Nauvoo expositor was just a bunch of viscous lies… so now it isn’t all a bunch of viscious lies? What else was printed in the Nauvoo Expisitor that is true? “Did Joseph Smith practice plural marriage, or was it introduced by Brigham Young and others? Joseph Smith introduced the practice, not Brigham Young. Credible contemporary sources document Joseph’s practice of plural marriage. Later, many faithful men and women who knew of Joseph’s practice of plural marriage gave sworn testimony of it.” footnote 15 is where you want to look. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/plural-marriage?lang=eng

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I have put in an acceptable amount of effort in explaining my position. Just because others do not agree with it, does not automatically make me opposed to a “good faith” discussion. I am under no obligation to explain over and over again. I am out of extra words to say the same thing. If the explanation provided by the prophet is not satisfactory when he is referring to the exact verse of the same scripture, well that says more about the person in terms of “good faith” than it does me. Prophets ALWAYS TEACH THE TRUTH .

I only claim what the scripture says. It says tithepayers will not be burned. I feel that if god wanted to be clear as to who exactly that is he would have just provided a lengthy description of what that means. He didn’t because you know who could see any confusion come about from this? Let’s say one is a bank manager and the bank is being robbed. He is holding a gun to your head and the robber says if you open the safe, I won’t shoot you. what is the logical conclusion if you don’t open the safe?? Most likely take a bullet to the skull despite him not actually saying he would shoot you. Is any sane person going to get into a semantics debate with the guy holding a gun to your head? Nope Same with gods statement reference tithepayers.

for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming” (⁠D&C 64:23⁠).” simple. Opposite of who is not burned. The tithepayer apparently. The statement is clear to me and apparently clear to Hinkley himself. If a prophet is comfortable interpreting it that way, why can’t you accept it? never mess with the church’s money. D&c1: 38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled⁠, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants⁠, it is the same⁠. I’m done dancing around and playing word games. That’s for lawyers. I agree with your own prophet as to what it says. I’m sorry you don’t respect the wisdom and authority of your own prophet but that is your problem.