MustardSeed

(Perhaps this is already been mentioned, but I’m growing weary of the topic so I’m being lazy.) AI helps, but these statements are very old. But personally, having heard the sentiment over and over throughout the years by local leaders and teachers and comments in Sunday school often enough that I’m part of this conversation today, I would imagine that these original statements have been sticky enough that it’s become part of culture for our church. Maybe not in Smacs ward but ok: Ai: “The most famous is not actually “when the prophet speaks, the thinking is done,” but: “When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done.” “When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy.” — Ward Teachers’ Message, Improvement Era, June 1945, published under the supervision of the Presiding Bishopric. This was an official teaching message for ward teachers, not merely a private opinion piece. It generated controversy at the time. A Unitarian minister, J. Raymond Cope, wrote to Church President George Albert Smith expressing concern. Smith replied that the Church does not expect blind obedience and that members should use their reason and judgment. A later statement is even closer to your wording: “When the prophet speaks, the debate is over.” This phrase was quoted approvingly by N. Eldon Tanner in an August 1979 First Presidency message. He was referencing a statement made by Elaine Cannon at a Church fireside.”

I stand all amazed honestly. Smac if I ever need a lawyer I’m calling you. I had to read this about five times. I think maybe you didn’t intend this.

Likewise! But I was really asking you about the bigger picture in reference to the original statement here on the thread “when the prophet speaks the discussion is over” - someone had said they had received this message from the pulpit often, but they were being told here that this was not actually a thing. I’m trying really hard to make sure that the person who made this statement doesn’t feel gaslit, because I feel like that happens too often on this site so when it does happen, I like to clarify. But I feel like the moment has passed anyway. I don’t even remember who said what anymore 😅

Cool, I’m exactly the same way. I just wondered if you had received messaging from leadership that we should or should not challenge statements made by general authorities or what have you. My experience is that Elder C’s words are a breath of fresh air.

This is a wonderful quote. I love it. Is this your experience, overall, in our church?

I once heard it said that biologically, when we come across a stranger, our brain is assessing two things. Is this person dangerous, and also is it a potential sexual partner. We’re talking on a very basic cellular level here, of course. Personal history, headline news, other people’s experiences are all going to shape that meter for each of us.

I think for the purposes of this conversation, I know what California is saying. I don’t need every little word to be perfect to understand his message. I understand what he’s communicating. my relationship with California, and with you and with everybody else here is more important to me than rejecting a message based on a word. I know that words are very important to you. But to me, standing on ceremony with this inhibits actual conversations. And yes, I do believe that the church wants us to think and ponder and ask questions. But I do not think they want any sort of debate. I think they want us to pray and receive the same answers that they have already provided. That is my opinion.

Yes. 100%

How can we best help you? Your thought didn’t come across here in a complete sentence. Maybe you can give us a little more information so we can support.

Wow. Thank you. I feel seen .

I understand. I promise I will never say “ Danzo I think you have a potential to be a sexual predator” I would be completely out of bounds. I can commit to never saying that to you. Nor will I ever say that to anybody nor have I. It’s really unfortunate that you have to be so careful. What I hear you saying is that you resent having to be so careful due to women’s outrageous anxiety. what I want you to say is that you resent having to be so careful due to the fact that so many women on the daily have to deal with inappropriate behavior from men, and that there is no way for us to know when we are completely safe and so we have to be extra cautious. And it’s not fair to you. Because honestly, it’s not. It’s not fair to you. It’s not fair to so many good men. I hate that for you. Assuming you are a good man. I’m sure you have many women that reflect your goodness. And I’m sure that it is painful to have to consider all who do not know you and do not trust you because of not knowing you, and their real live experience.

I’ve heard several iterations from pulpit etc of “ when the prophet speaks the debate is over.” Less so since Covid (I have theories) but California Id hate for you to feel gaslit on this. It’s certainly been propagated.

I’m not a bishop (shocking, I know) but can’t imagine why anyone holding the child would be a problem for anyone- that said, I think your Bishop went rogue. Imo.

Nvmd

I just dont love it when men suppose how women think, or how we should think. What I do love is when men say, “Im upset that men have done enough harm in the world that you 1.perceive lack of safety 2. Experience actual threat. Your concerns make sense. “ Just yesterday i was pumping gas. A dude walked up to me, got 2 feet from me, and asked what perfume i wear and told me i probably look great driving my sporty black car. He would not go away. I did not invite this nor did I feel comfortable. I did not assume anybody was going to rape me at the gas station. But if anyone here cant understand how gross that feels, how it adds to the pile of info, how that was in public in daylight, and how thats JUST YESTERDAY i dont know what else there is to say. I guess there isnt anything anyway.

Still are, from my experience

I loved it. I was hesitant because I’m really deeply affected by watching young boys die in war movies but 99% of the movie was filmed in an office building . I agree the acting was outstanding.

Honestly because I’m done being polite. Until you with others start requiring your team to change as loudly as you try to disqualify (me) with argument, nothing will change. Men don’t often listen to women as much as they will listen to other men and Smac we need you to defend us, not fight every line we write as though it is a sport. For you it looks to be a game. For us it’s daily concern.

Apparently participating does not equal listening. Instead, being of a victim mentality and finding apparent joy in argument seems to be the order of the day. im not worried that you are, or will turn into, a rapist. But since you are male, and I am female, I will always have a watchful eye on precarious situations with you and every other male. Sorry if that upsets you. But not really because I didn’t cause that need for awareness. thanks to those who try to get it. Also, Anxiety disorder is a mental health diagnosis with a code and everything. Awareness is not mental disorder. It’s life.

Anxiety disorders? Ok. ✅

Is that what that means?

I really dislike this type of apology. It’s meaningless. Without self reflection and understanding why, the attitude still remains. Does he not recognize that these comments were rooted in attitude? Sheesh this makes us all look so bad.

"The single strongest predictor of whether a young person stays active in the Church is feeling God’s presence in daily life." (warning: the following is just me getting some thoughts out. I think if I had not changed my view, I might have left the church a while ago.) This is a major issue for me in my life journey. I agree with the statement and the necessity of feeling God every day. The way I took the teachings of the church through most of my life was basically a vending machine model. When I put my quarter in and didn’t get the candy bar, it shook my faith. If I could start over as a young women leader which I did for decades, or even as a parent, I would teach not to pray for a specific outcome, but rather to pray for God‘s companionship through all outcomes. I don’t believe in crediting God for good things that happen anymore than I believe in blaming God for bad things that happen. Things happen - end of story IMO- If I believe otherwise, I feel much more alienated from God. I have learned instead to trust God’s program for the universe and eternities, let life be what it is, and worship God through service to others and daily gratitude attitude. Though I don’t believe God sent a check in the mail, I believe that he is the source of all things, generous and good. So I can be grateful without putting that kind of pressure on my relationship with Him any more I do think that in our church, we allow a type of speculation that is really not rooted in doctrine- that when good things happen, it’s because God has intervened (We share the speculation with general Christianity- ) Even yesterday in sacrament meeting, somebody stood up and talked about how he knows when he goes hunting that when it’s the Lord’s will, God will send him an elk that he can shoot. My music partner always used to say things like “ hey it’s a good thing we missed our flight because probably something bad was gonna happen on that airplane, thank God we were late to the airport” - Drove me absolutely nuts. How about taking responsibility for sleeping in and being late for your flight? Lol 😬 now I’m rambling. Thanks for indulging.

Ok.

I wasn’t there, I don’t know exactly what was said and so take this feedback with a grain of salt. There are multiple ways that you could’ve created space adjacent to your teaching partners ideology that would have been acceptable to most. Your anger is rooted in your parents rejection of you, and that’s totally valid. But it’s also blinding you to some opportunities you apparently have had to make a difference legitimately for young men and probably other areas, (audience here on this site for example- )your bitterness comes across in a way that doesn’t invite self reflection from anyone but rather creates defensiveness and guarding. I would’ve asked for you to be released myself. And I have no issues with young men not serving missions. But I do take issue with is people personal agendas particularly those rooted in unresolved wounding bleeding out in any way when in a position of leadership.