Calm

I am not going to make my mother, who was suffering from dementia, feel unnecessary anxiety by telling her that her granddaughter no longer believes in the Church (she would not feel anxiety because of the loss of belief of my daughter, but by her own inability to provide the comfort and support she would think my daughter needed…which my daughter didn’t as it wasn’t an emotional thing for her except for when it bothered others). So yeah, I deceived by not correcting my mother when she said a few things which obviously meant she saw my daughter as an active believer. While it made me uncomfortable because I tend to want to provide clarity and accuracy to the best of my ability, I am not feeling the least bit ashamed about it and never have.

I see certain descriptions of him as vicious lies, but perhaps they really believed such things and this could be qualified as just vicious and not lies. But perhaps my definition of viciousness is different than most.

While I like the idea of restaurant cards as long as they are enough for a good meal for two (so they don’t have to make the decision if they are quite broke whether it’s worth it if they need to cover some of it), now that I think of it there is the issue of perhaps it’s not a restaurant they like (I hate noisy restaurants for example) or maybe they have food restrictions (even garlic and onions can be an issue for some people and would make experimenting with new cuisines difficult as many sauces/dishes have one or the other, if not both). I would suggest a steak house because steak and potato*** minus the toppings is probably safe for most, but then what if they are vegetarians (which is becoming more common it seems). ***did you know boiled or baked potatoes are generally considered the most satiating food—a boiled potato is rated 3 times as satisfying as the equivalent amount of white bread as well as being high volume for the calories. Fried potatoes on the other hand…I guess the oil adds too many calories so you don’t get that much potato. Satiation meaning reducing appetite here. I will take potatoes over legumes anytime. Book gift cards are typical in my family as we all love and most collect at least some type of book (even have a couple who have published children’s books among my nieces), but I have found them hard to use online so am wary of them now.

This is what I did as well (taught Primary for over 20 years, starting at age 17 with Sunbeams). Never just read the lesson to the kids. That would have been foolish as they would lose attention quickly. As far as any discussion (more than just a sentence) about the content of the Expositor, the overall memory is while it was seen as mainly lies and some nasty ones at that, the Expositor was also seen as much more dangerous than just a list of lies because there was some truth mixed in with those lies, thus making it more likely the lies would be believed. Why would it when it was accurate? It was not all vicious, it was not all lies. But there were many (imo) vicious (intentionally inflammatory imo) lies in it.

There have been a few posters on this board and another some of us old timers used to hang out on ZLMB who made the claim, iirc.

Oh, I like that.

And then you said “proved it”.

‘Many lies’ in one or two places is not equivalent to ‘always taught just lies’ Since you are focusing on semantics, parsing words here in your argument, surely you should be precise in your own claims.

I know this should probably be in Social, but I wouldn’t mind debate on this as I would like to see what the ideas are floating about out there. What is everyone’s comfort level for weddings gifts, especially cash? For family, good friends, and casual friends/neighbours that you don’t party with except at neighborhood things? Not participated in a wedding for over two decades now and it suddenly dawned on me we haven’t changed our typical gift for years and we probably should. We like to give cash because that was the most helpful as we were broke students (I didn’t do a registry as it made no sense to start collecting anything when we anticipated being stuck in student housing for another 4 years; my error probably as we did get some useless gifts, but they were the exception…and it was a lot more work for guests back then and I felt really awkward saying ‘go buy this for me’). I know that Utah often runs lower because the cost of receptions and weddings can be quite low and if one isn’t getting a free meal out of it, that drops it lower, but other than that I am clueless. As those who have possibly received and most likely given wedding gifts in the past, do you see going for the registry gifts as most appropriate, see cash as an always welcomed gift even if rather impersonal and forgettable, or do you prefer something that says something about you as well as the couple so a connection is strengthened?

I agree. I doubt my view is a majority one. I do believe there is conflict between our doctrine and how at times we implement it being human and full of anxieties and fear and therefore desiring a predictable and controllable world for ourselves and our loved ones. Members in my experience often view valiancy in faith as willing to be fully committed to our faith relationship with God on little evidence rather than being loyal once the relationship has been established. I look on it more of a marriage relationship. We often use that as an analogy for our relationship with the Church, but what seems often ignored is the courtship stage of marriage in the analogy. No one would fault another I would hope for wanting to wait to commit fully until there is clear evidence of a reciprocal willingness to commit by a potential spouse, we would encourage people not to elope, to take time to get to know each other, develop trust in smaller ways before diving into the deep end, etc. That is not to say no commitment is desirable until one can be secure. No marriage will ever occur if no one commits at all until they are certain they will be safe because such a restriction on ourselves would prevent us from learning who the other is and if we can trust them to return our love and to care for us in ways that are good for us. I believe the parables of the mustard seed shows what the first step should be, a desire to nurture a seed of faith no matter how small to see if it produces good fruit. I see valiancy mostly applying once the fruit has grown and we have tasted the goodness of the gospel though I can also see valiancy as part of the process of nurturing, as in not only being willing to accept the gift of faith and plant the seed, but to actually care for it as it grows rather than assume if it is worthy of our love, no work is necessary to develop the trust that love needs to be anchored on. We need to be valiant in our efforts to keep nurturing our faith until some sort of fruit is produced that can be tested. How long this process is and what it looks like is internal to the person and therefore not something I can judge…or anyone else unless God gives them that knowledge (which is not automatically conferred imo on anyone with stewardship over another and definitely not for anyone without stewardship). I think most of mortal life is in nurturing of seeds segment even for Saints. We probably have several seeds with different kinds of earths in different stages of fertility, which can complicate the picture and our decisions. As to concern about others getting away with it… It seems to me we are instructed to focus these three virtues most often and most strongly and while God’s justice is spoken of frequently in scripture, it is usually for God to determine and judge. If we as mortals judge without the direction of the Spirit, if we try to simply reason out what is just by what seems fair to us, we will miserably fail because of our limited view of the eternities, including the infiniteness that exists in each of us as eternal beings. How can we balance out the innumerable variations of each individual’s life with the majority likely unknown to us with mortal reasoning?

Sometimes even that will be turned against you. I have never had a problem with God leading someone to another faith that provided them with what they needed at that time, though it took time for me to understand that God might lead someone out of the Gospel in that process. I first accepted the idea with the condition of their relationship with the Church was toxic for them, such as someone had been abused by a church member or had a family that misused gospel principles and messed up their kids. Quite some time ago, having heard many more stories of good people leaving the Church and seeing it happen in my own family, that belief morphed into something more universal I suppose, I believe God both leads people to and allows people to choose opportunities to learn different lessons in life outside of the Restored Gospel without it being seen as a rejection of him (I just don’t see in many circumstances that people have been given enough information or experiences of the kind that can be said should leave little doubt and I don’t believe God would condemn someone for misinterpreting incomplete information about him). Not all need or are best served by being part of the Restored Gospel at certain times in their lives, imo. For many, it is likely that the best time to experience the Gospel is in the next stage of our existence in its purer, less confusing and messed up by mortal human involvement form. If we simply judge by what opportunities most humans have been given in life, post death seems to be when God has arranged for most to receive the Gospel and if he is okay with that for most people, why not even those who have encountered the Restored Gospel while living? The first time I ever shared a form of that belief online due to a critic demanding I answer if I thought it possible for God to tell someone to leave the Church, I was told I was lying because I wanted to look PC and got trashed by her for that. It was a discussion on how members viewed other faiths iirc and the former member critic was apparently offended that I held a positive view, presenting this question thinking she had trapped me as far as I could tell from her rather over the top reaction. She was from a family that had some association with LDS Fundamentalists (of the polygyny kind) and had a rather rigid, limited view of what faithful LDS believed.

And rather odd for anything that involves humans of the nonexalted variety.

I have to amend my comments. The board has a 2020 discussion that mentions a $120,000 one time donation from MGF to FAIR that I had forgotten about. Bluebell*** mentions she thinks it went to hiring a bookkeeper (I think it was on the form). Sounds about right. We have been very slowly adding part time staff to take the ‘mechanical’ burden, like tech support, bookstore and membership and other administrative details off the volunteers (though many like members of the FAIR board and officers have to concern themselves with the nitty gritty still). I will try and remember we have two part timers in administration now (though perhaps our assistant is up to full time now) when I list the paid staff. I have no clue how much tech support we use. I assume that varies based on need. This donation is obviously more substantial than the first, but again not much in comparison to ongoing expenses, imo. I would personally describe that as helping out rather than supporting (a monthly or yearly check one can rely on is supporting in my view). I have no clue how much money over the years MGF received from church affiliated businesses or foundations. I do not have any issue with the Church contributing to good causes and even contributing to paying personal salaries if a full time job, such as someone running a shelter. Defending the Church is a very good cause in my books, so I would not/do not feel uncomfortable mentioning it if I was/am aware of such. I do want to make it clear that no one at FAIR is biased in their presentation because of the influence of money, greed or anything in those lines. We have been doing this for 25 years and more, so no one should be anticipating that we are some day going to be pulling in massive grants or donations that includes FAIR volunteers getting a personal monetary gift come Christmas (only thing we get is a reminder our membership fees—which are used to help offset expenses—are due). This is an effort of love and faithfulness and even sacrifice by many for those apologists involved. ***https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/73335-fair-mormons-new-youtube-branding-strategy/page/14/#findComment-1210004082

Found a reference; lol, Scott (president of FAIR for those not aware of that) also used “smoking gun”…I will admit I tend to roll my eyes when this donation gets brought up given the amount and I would not be surprised if other FAIR members do as well. MGF donated to FAIR a few thousand dollars and then several years later LDS Foundation (nontithing) donated to More Good (and may continue to do so for all I know as I don’t track this stuff myself, but pick it up from conversations, probably why memories are vague). So at that time, FAIR received no tithing dollars and even by the longest stretch possible no money from the Church since funding is not retroactively applied in accounting as far as I am aware.

I have no clear idea where the one time donation that was possibly (being more cautious here because I am relying on memory as it’s one week before the FAIR conference and I avoid asking questions on the list that can be answered elsewhere online because other FAIR volunteers who help out with the conference are over the top busy during this time) indirectly received from the Church came from (added: first donation was received prior to any funding of MGF by church related organization, second one after some donation, times and amounts someone else who cares more can dig out). I am not involved in that side of the operation. I am relatively certain we got a one time donation directly from the More Good Foundation. Iirc, there are claims it gets some funding from the Church, but iirc it was one of the for profit companies owned by the Church that donated, so it goes back to the same argument on how to define tithing dollars, which was decided in court that such funds were not, iirc. It was years ago though, so my memory is vague on details. It was thoroughly discussed on this board, iirc, at least once and likely more than once. Someone looked at our tax forms and thought they found the smoking gun or something that could tarnish FAIR’s reputation…which is odd, because as I said before we have always proclaimed loyalty to the Church and fully admit our biases may influence our writing, choice of speakers, etc. We are not a debate society putting up both sides of the argument. We try hard to keep our facts accurate, but of course our love of the Gospel is going to influence us to give more benefit of the doubt when facts are incomplete (as often happens with history) and draw more positive conclusions on motivations (which are often unstated) than someone who thinks the Church is a fraud and its leaders deceptive. It was not a huge amount iirc in comparison to our needs. Too bad we didn’t get more. 😛

For those who don’t get emails from FAIR announcing this stuff, a section from today’s:

Quite possibly. It has been an ongoing effort of FAIR to involve more women as previously they haven’t been as numerous as men, while in my experience probably run the same these days with struggling….though over my years with FAIR a number of women have been highly influential, for example Juliann who posts here who was highly involved in the founding of FAIR.

No tickets sold at the door this year. Tonight and tomorrow are the last times to get tickets. Please order tonight if possible (I got the impression our helper is heavily booked already for tomorrow, so it would make her life easier; she is someone who deserves help when she needs it ). Don’t worry though… Streaming is possible if unable to attend in person

We have very minimal staff, one admin last I heard and then tech people as needed. They are the only ones getting paid. Not the apologists. The admin staff person was added a few years ago. I have no time sense, but I am pretty sure two more people took over membership after I did it (no pay) before we finally gritted our teeth and accepted it had to be more consistent help, which was only possibly with a paid position. No one answering questions through the elist gets paid, we pay for the privilege in fact. The idea that FAIR members would be influenced by money is laughable. If we were, it would be to stop being involved because no one is making money by doing this at FAIR. FAIR is a hobby for us that we pay for, not an income producing side hustle. Yes, it is wonderful to get donations to pay for necessary equipment and allows us to create content because we can’t just do it with our phones, but money influencing us, please! That is a lazy criticism. There are other criticisms of our motivations that I recognize as possibilities…increase of wealth is most definitely not one of them. As far as being influenced by donations from the Church (I may be out of date, but I am aware of a one time donation tied to the Church, a foundation that has received some funding iirc), why even bother to go there? From the beginning we have always attested being loyal to the Church, we have never claimed to be unbiased. We would be doing the same thing whether they pay us or not (which they don’t). We actually believe in what we are putting out. Even when it comes to details, I might say things slightly different at times than another FAIR member if I was presenting something as FAIR members have a lot of different opinions and a wide range of peripheral beliefs, but I have never had another FAIR member tell me I was wrong or that my opinion needed to change nor has anyone sent out a correction letter for the numerous answers I have provided to those who write to FAIR for answers.

Also aren’t doctors and therapists allowed to keep confidentiality unless there is imminent danger to someone without sacrificing confidentiality completely? Iow, same exception is allowed without vacating the right?

The wife said he was excommunicated for incest with his mother iirc, but she is so not a reliable witness and this was also secondhand (hearsay?) My memory says neither bishop said anything about the excommunication, but it could be wrong. The former (iirc) bishop trying to be helpful in talking casually to an agent shared some info before he realized what he was doing, but pretty sure that was just about the first confession (the father claimed it was one time and in the past, the wife refuses to report to police, but promised she would keep the kids safe)

Yes, I believe you are right

@Robert F. Smith, I think I would prefer to give him your email. PM me it, please.

The US’s loss will be Canada’s gain…reversing the trend that was happening when we were there.

My husband certainly did. He loved teaching and research itself wasn’t bad…especially if you got TAs to do the grunt work. Getting it published though…