MormonLeaks: Snuffer/Remnant believers

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

That is the biggest red flag, Imo, especially given the claims he makes of how far gone Brigham Young and other leaders were early on. Would not polygamy have been a huge abuse of authority and would not excommunicating those who refused to accept it as a teaching of Joseph's had qualified to end authority way back then?  Why is he so much more powerful or spiritual or whatever, that rejection of him terminates the authority?  Huge ego.

I guess so.  Ego or weird.  I'll leave it as weird for now. 

[Calm]

It appears he is leading towards himself playing this role:

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/David,_Prophetic_Figure_of_Last_Days

"The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that "the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage" (TPJS, p. 339). Elder Orson Hyde, in his dedicatory prayer on the Mount of Olives, October 24, 1841, prophesied that the Jews would return to Jerusalem and that in time a leader called David, "even a descendant from the loins of ancient David, [would] be their king" (HC 4:457).

This predicted figure corresponds to a promised messianic servant. Hosea, speaking shortly before the loss of northern Israel, foretold that Israelites would return in the latter days "and seek the LORD their God, and David their king" (Hosea 3:5). Jeremiah prophesied of Israel and Judah's future righteousness, and of "David their king, whom I [the LORD] will raise up unto them" (Jer. 30:9; cf. 23:5; 33:15-22). And in Ezekiel it is written, "And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them" (Ezek. 34:23-24; cf. also 44:1-3).

Speaking to Joseph Smith, the angel Moroni 2 cited Old Testament passages telling of significant figures who would be involved with Christ's millennial reign (JS-H 1:40). As prophesied in Isaiah, it appears that two persons are spoken of, a "rod" and a "root" (11:1, 10)-one a leader "on whom there is laid much power," the other a person with special priesthood keys (D&C 113:3-6). These leaders are believed by some to be two forerunners, spoken of in rabbinic literature, one from Joseph and one from Judah (Encyclopedia Judaica, 11:1411).

Although noble attributes and spiritual powers characterize both of these messianic servants, Jesus Christ exemplifies these qualities perfectly (D&C 113:1-2). Jesus is the exemplar prophet, priest, and king. He identified himself as the prophet "like unto Moses" (Deut. 18:15; Acts 3:22-23; 3 Ne. 20:23) and was a high priest after the order of Melchizedek (Heb. 5:9-10;7:15-22). Jesus is King of Kings (Rev. 19:16), greater than all other leaders of all time. Some see in Jesus Christ the complete fulfillment of the prophecy of a future David. Others feel that, while the titles and functions of the future Davidic king could apply to Jesus, there will also be another righteous king by the name of David in the last days, a leader from the loins of David (and thus of Judah). VICTOR L. LUDLOW"

[ALarson]

12 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Interesting stuff.  It's weird he declares the priesthood taken as soon as he is ex'd but not when others were before him. 

Hasn't he also claimed to have received his 2nd anointing?  (Or, do I have him mixed up with someone else?).

If so, what calling was he holding at the time?  Just curious what his history is with the church....

 

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Hasn't he also claimed to have received his 2nd anointing?  (Or, do I have him mixed up with someone else?).

If so, what calling was he holding at the time?  Just curious what his history is with the church....

 

I have read a bit on LDS Freedom Forum where some have claimed to know him and reported that he had been a teacher in their ward, but not any leadership callings they knew of.

There had been, iirc, an ongoing discussion leading up to excommunication so I suspect at that time he held no callings, but that is speculation.

His emphasis has been the Second Comforter (seeing Christ in mortality is a necessity to receive celestial glory if I understand him correctly), but the URL would seem to indicate he thinks it is the same thing...but the clarification section would seem to differ...that was in 2010 so may be different now.

http://denversnuffer.com/category/second-anointing/

"I have not written any explanation for the Second Anointing or Calling and Election process.  I do not think it is important or meaningful to ever write anything about it.  What is important is to understand “how” someone would make changes in their lives to then be taught things directly from the Lord.  He has a continuing ministry.   You should be interested in having Him as your minister.

 

The books I have written do not ever touch upon Calling and Election, nor discuss the Second Anointing.  But they will tell you what is required to go and learn from the Lord about these things directly.  If you want answers about that, then follow the same path as the ancients did, as Joseph Smith did, and as Abraham did.  I’m only interested in helping you understand the path."

Edited August 23, 2017 by Calm

[HappyJackWagon]

For those interested in whether or not the Snuffer movement is picking up steam, these podcasts speak to that a bit. One is a Year of Polygamy podcast where Lindsay Hansen Park interviews a Remnant "member". http://www.yearofpolygamy.com/year-of-polygamy/episode-128-denver-snuffer-the-remnant-movement-and-polygamy/

The other is a Radio West interview where Doug Fabrizio interviews Lindsay and 1 other guest about the movement.  http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/denver-snuffer-and-remnant-movement

Based on these podcasts, it seems like the movement is picking up some steam. It has also been suggested that in the earlier days, before Snuffer was X'd, there were some local church leaders who would refer his books to members. It seems like a couple of the books may have even been published through Deseret Book. So you can imagine the confusion  for people if they were recommended by a local leader to read a DB book written by Snuffer.

While this movement holds zero attraction to me personally, I know many TBM's who express the same kinds of sentiments and beliefs, even if they don't affiliate with the Remnant movement.

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

For those interested in whether or not the Snuffer movement is picking up steam, these podcasts speak to that a bit. One is a Year of Polygamy podcast where Lindsay Hansen Park interviews a Remnant "member". http://www.yearofpolygamy.com/year-of-polygamy/episode-128-denver-snuffer-the-remnant-movement-and-polygamy/

The other is a Radio West interview where Doug Fabrizio interviews Lindsay and 1 other guest about the movement.  http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/denver-snuffer-and-remnant-movement

Based on these podcasts, it seems like the movement is picking up some steam. It has also been suggested that in the earlier days, before Snuffer was X'd, there were some local church leaders who would refer his books to members. It seems like a couple of the books may have even been published through Deseret Book. So you can imagine the confusion  for people if they were recommended by a local leader to read a DB book written by Snuffer.

While this movement holds zero attraction to me personally, I know many TBM's who express the same kinds of sentiments and beliefs, even if they don't affiliate with the Remnant movement.

Interesting....and I agree. (Thanks for the links too...)

Here's a "fellowship finder" showing the locations of his groups:

http://www.fellowshiplocator.info/

Edited August 23, 2017 by ALarson

[ALarson]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have read a bit on LDS Freedom Forum where some have claimed to know him and reported that he had been a teacher in their ward, but not any leadership callings they knew of.

There had been, iirc, an ongoing discussion leading up to excommunication so I suspect at that time he held no callings, but that is speculation.

His emphasis has been the Second Comforter (seeing Christ in mortality is a necessity to receive celestial glory if I understand him correctly), but the URL would seem to indicate he thinks it is the same thing.

http://denversnuffer.com/category/second-anointing/

Thanks, Calm.

I'd read somewhere recently that he did claim to have received his 2nd anointing (maybe on another thread here), but I find that unlikely.  I'll do a search for more on that too.

Edited August 23, 2017 by ALarson

[ksfisher]

14 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

 It seems like a couple of the books may have even been published through Deseret Book. So you can imagine the confusion  for people if they were recommended by a local leader to read a DB book written by Snuffer.

 

I don't think anything came out through Deseret Book.  Mill Creek Press or self published.

[Calm]

I think I need to stop researching him or I am going to lose another day or two, lol, so I will leave it to you (ALarson), at least till nighttime.

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I don't think anything came out through Deseret Book.  Mill Creek Press or self published.

I remember seeing his early stuff in the DB catalog, though of course take that with a grain of sale given my memory.  His earlier books weren't problematic until you combine them with his later stuff and see how his thoughts developed towards rejection of authority (because they rejected his version and gave him the choice of pulling his book or being excommunicated).

Edited August 23, 2017 by Calm

[JAHS]

3 hours ago, rockpond said:

If there were dates on the correspondence, they have been redacted.  And the MormonLeaks site doesn't seem to indicate the dates either.  

 

I agree.  The author of the original letter (pg 2) seems to want the Brethren to speak out specifically and boldly regarding Snuffer.  I can't imagine them doing that because it could potentially cause many others, who may never have heard of Snuffer, to go start researching him and reading his works.

I have read some of his stuff and for someone who says he believes Joseph Smith to be a true prophet, there are multiple contradictions in the claims and teachings he espouses.

[ksfisher]

23 minutes ago, Calm said:

I remember seeing his early stuff in the DB catalog, though of course take that with a grain of sale given my memory.  His earlier books weren't problematic until you combine them with his later stuff and see how his thoughts developed towards rejection of authority (because they rejected his version and gave him the choice of pulling his book or being excommunicated).

I believe they sold his early books but were not the publisher.

[rockpond]

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I can understand why you (and others) would say this, but I don't agree.  It seems as if the church's teaching on who holds priesthood keys and whom we sustain to lead the church is very, very clear. 

So, you feel that our sustaining of the Brethren is equivalent to the Brethren speaking about a man's claim to have seen and spoken with Christ?

[cinepro]

3 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I'm not sure how members of the church who are active in their wards and seeking to keep the commandments at home can be "unclear on the Church's position."  What could be unclear?  If we pay attention to general conference the position of the church seems very clear.

 

At least now we know how polygamy was able to be practiced by some members in Nauvoo while Joseph Smith and the Church were publicly denying it.

Edited August 23, 2017 by cinepro

[rockpond]

8 minutes ago, cinepro said:

At least now we know how polygamy was able to be practiced by some members in Nauvoo while Joseph Smith and the Church were publicly denying it.

Yep... I think it's this kind of secrecy in the church that will encourage some members to follow Snuffer.

[Calm]

Pure speculation on my part, but I get the feeling it is not secrecy that many of the Remnant have a problem with, they get into the idea of deep and mystical beliefs not available to the run of the mill lay person, but only to the elite.

[ksfisher]

26 minutes ago, rockpond said:

So, you feel that our sustaining of the Brethren is equivalent to the Brethren speaking about a man's claim to have seen and spoken with Christ?

Denver Snuffed, whether he acknowledges is or not, seems to be setting himself up as a prophet.  We sustain the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve as prophets.  To look to anyone else for prophetic guidance for the church would seem to be ignoring that sustaining vote.  If you sustain the brethren as prophets there is no reason to look to someone like Denver Snuffer.

As to his claim that he's seen Christ, I think Denver Snuffer if the only one who can really confirm or deny that.  Personally I don't believe him.

[rockpond]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Pure speculation on my part, but I get the feeling it is not secrecy that many of the Remnant have a problem with, they get into the idea of deep and mystical beliefs not available to the run of the mill lay person, but only to the elite.

I didn't mean to suggest that they have a problem with secrecy... I think some are using it as a way to rationalize their staying in the church while also believing in Snuffer's claims and teachings.

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Denver Snuffed, whether he acknowledges is or not, seems to be setting himself up as a prophet.  We sustain the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve as prophets.  To look to anyone else for prophetic guidance for the church would seem to be ignoring that sustaining vote.  If you sustain the brethren as prophets there is no reason to look to someone like Denver Snuffer.

As to his claim that he's seen Christ, I think Denver Snuffer if the only one who can really confirm or deny that.  Personally I don't believe him.

Your logic may work from your religious POV but I think they could sustain the prophet while also believing that Snuffer has seen Christ and received revelation.  So, again, I don't see the annual sustaining as a specific speaking out regarding Snuffer's claims.

[ksfisher]

19 minutes ago, cinepro said:

At least now we know how polygamy was able to be practiced by some members in Nauvoo while Joseph Smith and the Church were publicly denying it.

I think this is a false equivelency.  What does Nauvoo in the 1840's have to do with Denver Snuffer and his followers leading people away from the church today?

[ksfisher]

7 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Your logic may work from your religious POV but I think they could sustain the prophet while also believing that Snuffer has seen Christ and received revelation.  So, again, I don't see the annual sustaining as a specific speaking out regarding Snuffer's claims.

Snuffer has declared that the brethren lost their priesthood when he was excommunicated.  If you believe that then I'm not sure how you can raise your arm and sustain the First Presidency and the Twelve as prophets.  Making one of these choices would seem to preclude the other.  

If you sustain the brethren as prophets, seers, and revelators then how does man who claims the brethren have no priesthood fit into your religious paradigm?

[cdowis]

4 hours ago, cinepro said:

What a sad, pathetic response.

This is precisely why I don't like leaks, and discussion about leaks.  All of the context is missing.  We make judgement based on incomplete information and this borders on backyard gossip.

YOUR response is pathetic.  Pray that God does not judge you on such bits and pieces of your life, incomplete.

Edited August 23, 2017 by cdowis

[rockpond]

8 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I think this is a false equivelency.  What does Nauvoo in the 1840's have to do with Denver Snuffer and his followers leading people away from the church today?

In Nauvoo, plural marriage was being practiced secretly while being denied publicly.

Today, a secret temple ordinance is performed for a select group of members while the Church refuses to speak about it.

I don't think it's hard to see how the Remnant "members" could believe that this is just another secret effort within the church for the most righteous among us.

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Snuffer has declared that the brethren lost their priesthood when he was excommunicated.  If you believe that then I'm not sure how you can raise your arm and sustain the First Presidency and the Twelve as prophets.  Making one of these choices would seem to preclude the other.  

If you sustain the brethren as prophets, seers, and revelators then how does man who claims the brethren have no priesthood fit into your religious paradigm?

That is attempting to get into the minds of the Remnant folks.  I'm not sure how they may or may not live with such a dichotomy.

[e-eye]

I think they may have hit their peak or at least their momentum has slowed some.  Case in point: https://bringingtolighthiddenthings.wordpress.com/2017/08/14/first-blog-post/

There are some remnant folk who are not too happy with what recently went down with one of the members.  Word is Denver is about to take on the Davidic Servant  and will be asking the members/fellowshippers to make a covenant.  

Having family in this movement I have watched it closely but not so much the last year or so - kind of jumped back into it when somebody shared the link above on LDSFF.

One thing for certain is that the church will have a sifting and although I don't see too many members jumping on this - it's mostly people who were out the door looking for something anyway.