Was God once a man?

[dragonslayer]

I would say not Mortal.

If it does not have proton nuetrons and electrons it does not exist. And our God given senses cannot detect it. Other wise its only a random thought in a blue print.

How can you be so sure that there are not other realms where things are not made up of atoms and quarks?

Why must God be limited to reside within these parameters?

[Avatar4321]

What is the New Testament about if its not about God becoming flesh to atone for the sins of the world?

[dragonslayer]

What is the New Testament about if its not about God becoming flesh to atone for the sins of the world?

Also, if God is already flesh, then why did he have to become "flesh twice" in order to offer salvation?

The logical answer: God is not flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[BCSpace]

Also, if God is already flesh, then why did he have to become "flesh twice" in order to offer salvation?

The logical answer: God is not flesh.

No, the logical question to ask first is "Which God?" Since the answer is Jehovah, who is Jesus Christ, we see that the God who Atoned for our sins became flesh once. His Father already had flesh. Remember that there is not a single verse in the Bible to support the trinity hypothesis.

[Sheelah]

Again, this implies a misunderstanding or misstatement of trinitiarian belief.  Trinitarians hold that there are three distinct persons in the Holy Trinity, not one, just as LDS believe there are three persons in the Godhead.  The difference is, as has been stated many times previously, LDS see those as three separate Gods, and trinitarians see those as three persons/entities who are fully God, who together form one God (stated as "Godhead," in LDS belief).

Making it otherwise is incorrect.

As many times as I read this Ave Maria, I'm still not understanding it, and I know its because I'm coming from the LDS version and I'm having a hard time stepping out of that box to understand.

In a way, what you say reminds me of a children's show where the heros are all separate until they join forces then they become ONE entity until their mission for the moment is done and they break apart into three separate but equal beings.

In the trinitarian view, why did Jesus even need to bother coming down and doing what he did? From what I thought I remember reading somewhere else, after he was resurrected and went back, he basically shed this body to become a spirit(?) again. Was it just to show us what we're going to do eventually? That we will be resurrected beings in heaven with the 3 spirits that together form God?

Wait, did all 3 of them go into the physical form of Jesus when he was here on earth? Is that why all praise and worship goes to Jesus, because in essence it really is all 3 of them?

I recognize the fact I'm probably too LDS to really understand this. Just seems so complicated and I probably mix in to many of my understandings into it too. Like those scriptures you quoted to help explain it, failed miserably with me in explaining anything but what I understand to be true.

[Moon Quaker]

Brent,

Instead of having the "Not sure" part of your poll, you should have as "I don't know that we teach that"

[Neighbor]

Again, this implies a misunderstanding or misstatement of trinitiarian belief.  Trinitarians hold that there are three distinct persons in the Holy Trinity, not one, just as LDS believe there are three persons in the Godhead.  The difference is, as has been stated many times previously, LDS see those as three separate Gods, and trinitarians see those as three persons/entities who are fully God, who together form one God (stated as "Godhead," in LDS belief).

Neighbor: I'm quite suprized that anyone would claim the Scriptures don't support what many claim as the 'trinity' doctrine. I must say that I believe there is but one God, and this one God is evident in three manifestations. To say that Jehovah is different than Yaweh is odd, as is to say that the Holy Spirit is not the Father or that Jesus is not the Word made flesh. Jesus is the Son of God/Son of man and the comfortor is of the Father, yet the Spirit of Christ that indwells believers and who also convicts the world of sin.

God is God.

Jesus is God.

The Holy Spirit is God.

The unity of the believers is that Spirit that God gives to witness of Him by the many gifts of grace that His Spirit gives according to His Word - the very promises of God...to the end of transforming our minds to the mind of Christ. This cannot be done by denial of the truth spoken by Him who is I AM.

Man will never at any time become a God. I know it is impossible because God said so - and if God said so, the Holy Spirit said so, then Jesus said so. Those three testifying against some prophet claiming to speak for them is a no brainer and no faither as to whom we should be hearing.

We need to read the Bible more and place the value on it that Jesus did.

[ave maria]

Again, this implies a misunderstanding or misstatement of trinitiarian belief.

[mnn727]

God exists in a realm higher than 3rd-dimensional space.

In all my times of reading the Bible, I must have missed that verse

[dragonslayer]

I think the main point to remember is that the spirit comes from one place alone, and that is God.

This explains the scriptures that talk about us dwelling in God and God in us.

1 John 4:13

Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

James 1:17

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

[alpha]

Depends on what God your discussing.

My view...One and only God...No, God was never a "man" as we are here on earth(before Jesus). Only if He was in the image and in the flesh as Jesus Christ, who walked on this earth.

Then yes, Jesus Christ, my God and savior was a man who walked on earth.

Alpha

[alpha]

mmn727

I'd agree...where does it say that God exists in a realm higher than third dimensional space. The Bible teaches that God is so big what house made by man's hands can contain him. The heavens are his courtroom and the earth is His footstool. We have a far much bigger God than that...He is not confined to any amount of space. God is anywhere we can or cannot go. Why is it that so many people can feel His presence...God is everywhere!

[Teancum]

I understand there is debate over what was truly said on that day of the King Folette discourse, but humor me.

Most of my LDS friends will say Joe's words are taken out of context and/or improperly recorded. That is an acceptable answer.

If Joseph really did say that, however, he was in direct contradiction with Moroni 8:18 and Mormon 9:9-10.

My view is that if God the Father was a man it was in the same way Jesus was a mortal man.

Teancum

[juliann]

I still think one of the easiest ways to clarify this for Latter-day Saints is to have you substitute the word "Godhead" when you hear trinitarians use the word "God."

And, for an imperfect analogy, I'll use the First Presidency of the LDS Church.

The difference is that no one says three and then insists that the number three becomes one until it comes to this. The First Prez example is indicative of this blip in logic. At no time do LDS ever say the First Prez becomes one entity. They are three distinct and separate individuals who work together. If you believe these two situations to be analogous you have brought a lot of your LDS belief into your view of the Trinity.

However, this attempt to emphasize the "three" in the trinitarian belief is what I was referring to as I have observed this tendency becoming more prevalent since my early days on the internet. I rarely see the ubiquitous toothpaste and water/ice analogy...and only occasionally the egg.

Three distinct individuals comprise that First Presidency, but one doesn't suggest that the First Presidency is not an entity.

This is the correct analogy but not for Trinitarianism. Have you ever heard LDS say are one substance/essence? The First Prez does accurately represent subordination, however....a well attested early Christian belief before Constantine replaced it with the more comfortable philosophically described entity.

Let's say, for the sake of illustration, that each of the members of the First Presidency was fully "First President" (I am not asserting this is the case, but using this for the point).  They all shared the same nature--that of being "First President."

The problem here is that nature is not homoousious, the necessary component you are avoiding. Terms have morphed and merged throughout the centuries as the problems with this construction emerged again and again. Nature is what has to be used to explain the human/God component of Christ. Hypostasis is the person part of the equation. Again, the only reason for a trinitarian construction is to avoid the appearance of polytheism and to use the philosophical demands of the day to make the concept acceptable while trumping the opposition. The reasoning for a Trinity suited the age in which it was constructed. We no longer hold the scientific understandings necessary to uphold it...thus, the rationalizations for it are changing. This is not a criticism it is an observation. It does not effect me one way or another until someone like Ave Maria inserts herself into my religion, making claims to authority as a well-informed former member while producing little but Catholic apologetic website links when asked for information.

Again, I think you're falling victim to stepping too far outside the box, or listening to others who are critical of trinitarian belief who do not have an accurate understanding of it.  Which is somewhat like falling victim to listening to a non-Latter-day Saint explain LDS belief incorrectly.  If you listen to the propaganda, it's hard to escape it. 

Baloney, trinitarianism was started before modern sects of Christianity were a twinkle in God's eye. Eusebius records the same objection that nontrinitarians have today...the words used to describe this critical piece of Christianity have been taken from nonbiblical sources. That you do not want to acknowledge historical records that do not belong to your religion does not make it "propaganda".

[juliann]

My view...One and only God...No, God was never a "man" as we are here on earth(before Jesus). Only if He was in the image and in the flesh as Jesus Christ, who walked on this earth.

Can you not see how absurd it becomes when you have to parse God? If it is ok for Christ...at what point does it become unthinkable for the Father? There really is no basis for this aversion beyond an inherited neo-platonic disdain of a god contacting "matter". If Christ is God and God is God...what is with the arbitary line drawing?

[Krisjhn]

Well, this is fun and all speculating on the exact nature of God, but from my readings of the scriptures no where in there does it say that I need to understand Gods physical nature, or lack thereof to gain exhaltation. I simply need to Love God and Love my Neighbor for on these hang all the law and prophets.

Given that I still find it enjoyable to speculate.

As for LDS theology on the physical nature of God we only have a limited understanding. I think most LDS will agree with the statement that God has a body. Beyond that we are simply guessing.

The idea Brent that you argue that by giving God a body somehow limits Him can be fliped on you very easily. One could say by not giving God a body it limits Him.

Were we not all created in the image and likeness of God as it states in Genisis. And if God is all powerful, as you state, does it matter if He has a body. Or can one only be all powerful without a body?

As for Jesus creating the earth yes we believe that Jesus along with others were the workers who created the earth. Some people struggle with this in that the feel that it takes God out of the loop and goes against scripture that states God the Father created the earth. [i know some on this baord will try to argue that the God mentioned in the Bibible as creating the earth can be interprited and Jesus Christ but let us just leave that aside for now] I do not think this relegates God to anonimity in the creation. Just because it was Christ who did the actual labor does not mean that God did not create the earth. Much like Donald Trump builds a building in NYC. Did Trump do it himself? Or did he have people who did it under his direction. In the end Trump gets the glory but in reality it was Joe Jones and his construction crew who built the building. But they could not have done it without the authority and direction from Trump.

You believe (correct me if I'm wrong) God has a physical body and lives somewhere inside 3rd-dimensional space and time. Does that mean God is limited by the speed of light?

Or is it possible God exists in a higher realm?

I have no doubt God has created other worlds; and He can be there and here at the same time. What do you think? Placing God in a 3rd-dimensional physical body severely limits that ability

I personaly believe in a limited God. I know this might freak you out and be considered herasy but hear me out. God is limited in that He is bound by a set of rules...what all those rules are I have no idea...but God cannot do what ever He wants. He cannot, for example, simply change His mind and negate the sacrifice and atonement of Jesus Christ. For the atonement is infinite and eternal. If God did this He would cease to be God. So there are some rules God must abide by. Does He have a greater understanding of the the laws of nature...absolutley. For He can create worlds while we cannot. Nonetheless I believe that there are laws, laws of the priesthood, that God cannot break. God cannot sin. If He did sin He would cease to be God.

So God is not all powerful. His power comes from his obedience to the laws of the priesthood. Just as our power comes from the obdience to these laws. For if we keep the laws glory is added upon our heads. If we break the laws glory is taken away. I believe that this earth is a type and a shadow of things to come and things that are. If we look close enough at how this life operates, what we look like, feel like, what gives us happyness, gives us glory, how are families are set up, the lesson we learn, we will find clues on the nature of God, His governance structure, His past, His future, and what lies before us if we succeed in gaining exhaltation.

[Hemidakota]

Depends on what God your discussing.

My view...One and only God...No, God was never a "man" as we are here on earth(before Jesus). Only if He was in the image and in the flesh as Jesus Christ, who walked on this earth.

Then yes, Jesus Christ, my God and savior was a man who walked on earth.

Alpha

Interesting when it reveals in Acts Chapter 7 -

(Acts 7:55-56.)

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

[alpha]

My view...One and only God...No, God was never a "man" as we are here on earth(before Jesus).  Only if He was in the image and in the flesh as Jesus Christ, who walked on this earth. 

Can you not see how absurd it becomes when you have to parse God? If it is ok for Christ...at what point does it become unthinkable for the Father? There really is no basis for this aversion beyond an inherited neo-platonic disdain of a god contacting "matter". If Christ is God and God is God...what is with the arbitary line drawing?

If God is eternal, then He has no beginning or ending...He forever was, is , and will forever be.

The one living God before he walked on Earth in the flesh is Jesus Christ, the only man-god. 100% man & 100% God.

If the God, heavenly father, the creator of heaven and earth of the old testament was a mortal man, died, then ressurected before becoming a God, then it makes no sense to me.......this is what sounds absurd to me.

The Bible teaches one God from the beginning...

Genesis...the beginning.

"In the beginning God..." where does it mention a before...it says "IN THE BEGINNING"

Alpha

[alpha]

Depends on what God your discussing.

My view...One and only God...No, God was never a "man" as we are here on earth(before Jesus).  Only if He was in the image and in the flesh as Jesus Christ, who walked on this earth. 

Then yes, Jesus Christ, my God and savior was a man who walked on earth.

Alpha

Interesting when it reveals in Acts Chapter 7 -

(Acts 7:55-56.)

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

This does not imply that God was once a man(a continuous cycle of man becoming gods)...only shows that there is a distinction between God the father and the Son...

Alpha

[juliann]

If the God, heavenly father, the creator of heaven and earth of the old testament was a mortal man, died, then ressurected before becoming a God, then it makes no sense to me.......this is what sounds absurd to me.

Alpha, think this through. Was Christ not God before? Was he not eternal with the Father? Every argument against God becoming mortal is an argument against Christ becoming mortal. You cannot escape that unless you move to the position that Christ is creature and not co-eternal with God.

The Bible teaches one God from the beginning...

Genesis...the beginning.

"In the beginning God..."  where does it mention a before...it says "IN THE BEGINNING"

You are the one adding "before". LDS have always believed Jesus was a God before descending. His atonement would have no meaning if he was not God. As for in the beginning...what does beginning really mean? "Time" cannot be defined and will continue to be debated until we run out of it.

[Hemidakota]

My view...One and only God...No, God was never a "man" as we are here on earth(before Jesus).

[Zakuska]

What "spirit" means is another matter.

Julian,

I must object!!! That was berry punny!

[Restformationist]

Again, for those who believe the Father was a mortal man before becoming our God, please read Moroni 8:18 and Mormon 9:9-10. While I do not accept the BoM as the Word of God, I do read it along with the Doctrines and Covenants because there is wisdom in both. In this case, the wisdom is that God has always been as He is today.

Krisjhn, that is an interesting perspective. I would put it this way: God is all-powerful, but His power is always righteous. He is incapable of doing evil. Is there power in evil? Yes, but God is more powerful. God is too powerful to commit evil. Does that make sense?

[Hemidakota]

Depends on what God your discussing.

My view...One and only God...No, God was never a "man" as we are here on earth(before Jesus).

[Zakuska]

ave maria,

Again, this implies a misunderstanding or misstatement of trinitiarian belief.