suem Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 The often overlooked fact is that Christians believe that Jesus was fully God even while clothed in his mortal body. Some even pay attention to the fact that after his resurrection, he still declared he had a body of flesh and bone, yet had not ceased to be God.So what is so horrifying about Mormons believing that God, as in the Father, has a body, too?I thought they were all one, as per the classical Trinity.That is a VERY good point. I have never thought of it like that before.I think that the real issue for other Christian religions is that they believe that Jesus is God and that God is Jesus. There are not 2 (or 3) separate beings... there is one. God the Father (soul), being the father of our spirits, Jesus being the physical embodiment of God and the Holy Spirit which is, I guess, God's spirit... I don't know, this is where I get lost. But in anycase it is like Maureen said:You are a human being; man/woman. Therefore you have a body, soul and spirit. You have 3 parts, but are only one being... so it is with God, or so other Christian religions beleive. Link to comment
Magyar Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 If God has a physical body, how can He be in more than one place at once? Very good question! His influence and his knowledge ARE everywhere. That doesn't require his body to be, any more than a disc jockey must be in every city that receives his broadcast, or even than I have to be everywhere in the world where I've installed a Web camera.His presence can also be felt everywhere via the Holy Ghost, who is solely spirit. There's a reason why the Holy Ghost is part of the Godhead. Link to comment
Jan Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 I believe God took on flesh to provide atonement for our sins and so that we will be resurrected from the dead. Furthermore, so that we can have a relationship with God the Father through Christ. Brent,I have a question for you - not to be argumentative but interested in how you reconcile this.I assume you believe that God took on flesh as the man Jesus Christ. Christ died and was resurrected with a glorified, perfect body.Where is that body of God's now? Link to comment
juliann Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Are you suggesting God is not all-powerful? No. But you are requiring that all powerful requires being a formless "spirit". This become even more odd when you consider that Satan is considered to be unembodied yet not all powerful. You are going to have to make the connection between a glorified body and lack of power. This is an idea that has been inherited from the science of the days when Christianity was forming. It makes no sense (as if anything in this unknowable realm of mysticism makes "sense".)You are getting swarmed, Brent. It isn't usually like this...I think too many of us are on vacation. Don't feel like you have to respond to everything. You will go crazy. You need to be aware that Mormon theology is not systematic and you will run into a divergence of opinion and theory...even from our leaders. Link to comment
Kenngo1969 Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Actually, God still is a man, albeit a glorified, perfect, immortal, incorruptible man, but a man nonetheless... What about John 4:24? God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.Ken Responds: Dang! We Marminz been done in buh Brent's incisive proof-textin', folks! Jes' one verse from duh Bah-bull, an' das all she wrote! Das'us all it took! Will the last one to leave the Church please turn out the lights? Actually, we know quite a bit about the nature of God from Joseph Smith's conversations with Him... Shocking as it might seem to you, we actually believe Joseph Smith saw what he said he saw... It's little wonder, then, that so many of our detractors, rather than dealing with the substance of those encounters, are reduced to attempting to dig up any dirt they can find on Joseph Smith. "Yes, we know he was sincere, and that you are sincere," they say, "but one can still be sincere Link to comment
juliann Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 You have 3 parts, but are only one being... so it is with God, or so other Christian religions beleive. I'm not going to speak for them but I have seen an observable movement in my ten years online toward a description of three persons (there is a standard word used that makes a difference to them..."persons" may not be it). What you are describing sounds more like modalism...and they have to walk a very thin line to avoid a couple of ancient "heresies". The Trinitarian belief inheirited from neo-Platonism is becoming increasingly unwieldy in modern thinking....as you can see it cannot be upheld logically and to anyone not immersed in the technicalities it all sounds the same anyway. It is all right to revert to the "it's a mystery" (which we all must ultimately do)...but not when you are demanding that another religion justify their "mystery". Link to comment
suem Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Ken Responds: Dang! We Marminz been done in buh Brent's incisive proof-textin', folks! Jes' one verse from duh Bah-bull, an' das all she wrote! Das'us all it took! Will the last one to leave the Church please turn out the lights?That wasn't very nice. Link to comment
Edward Lalone Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 John 4:24 reads, "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." The phrases, "God is light," (1 John 1:5), "God is love," (1 John 4: have the same meaning as "God is spirit," (John 4:24), and John 4:24 does not mean that "God is a spirit" whether it means that God is spirit, and we must worship him in spirit. The word spirit is used twice in John 4:24, and both have the same meaning. Its the same greek word. Now, once we understand that John was saying God is spirit in the same way as he was saying God is love, that is describing his attributes we better understand what John was saying, when he sad we "must worship in spirit and truth." He was saying, God is love therefore we must worship in love and truth, or God is light therefore we must worship in light and truth. In John 3:6, John defines what he means by spirit, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."John was trying to tell us something, he was trying to give us a lesson in how we should worship God, that we should be born of the spirit, and worship God as God is for God is spirit, and we too must be spirit or worship in spirit and truth to be like God. We are being told that we should be "born again," putting off the carnal man and taking on the spirit of Christ, of God. For God is love therefore we should love, God is light therefore we should worship in light, God is spirit therefore we should worship in spirit. Basically, John was telling us to worship in spirit the way God is spirit. He wasn't defining spirit as being without a body. Even though now it often means that. He was defining spirit as meaning not being of the natural man. For God is not a natural, but a spiritual man, just like we should be for we are to put off the natural man, the carnal man.Most of Christianity will not accept this definition of what John meant by God is spirit, but it is what he meant. He was telling us to worship God as God is. To step out of the natural man, and to become spiritual as God is spiritual. There is no other reason why he would say, "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth" but to show an attribute of God, and say that we should be the same, it was like saying, "God is light, and his worshippers must worship in light and in truth." Link to comment
Zakuska Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Where is Paul Osborne when you need him!!!I think Brent needs some biblical education:The late Raymond Brown [Catholic Theologian] who was considered by many in the world to be the Worlds leading scholar/Theologian on the Gospel of John stated regarding John 4:24 -" This is not an essential definition of GOD, but of GOD'S dealing with men; it means that GOD is spirit tward men because he gives the spirit [xivv 16] which begets them anew". There are in fact two other descriptions in Johns writtings : "GOD is light [1 JN 1:5], GOD is Love [ JN 4:8], thou no one has argued that GOD is a light or a species of Love . In short one miust worship the Father "Through the Spirit" which he has given to the Church [John 14: 16], there no hint of suggestion that he "himself" is a "spirit". See Anchor Bible, John, 172. Hmmm... So John 4:24 doesn't say what Brent thinks it says!Paul Calls the ressurected Man Jesus Christ a Spirit. Angels are even called spirits. And Im pretty sure that even men are called spirits. Hmm but that contradicts what Christ says in Luke. Could there be different classes of "Spirits"? Ones that have bodies and ones that do not? Ghosts anybody? Link to comment
Kenngo1969 Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Ken Responds: Dang! We Marminz been done in buh Brent's incisive proof-textin', folks! Jes' one verse from duh Bah-bull, an' das all she wrote! Das'us all it took! Will the last one to leave the Church please turn out the lights?That wasn't very nice. What, exactly, "wasn't very nice" about my previous post, SueM? The fact that I'm skeptical that the Church of which I'm a faithful member (and its doctrines) is/are such a flimsy house(s) of cards that it/they can be demolished by one Scripture from the Bible? The fact that I think anyone who believes that it/they can be so easily demolished is more than just a little naive? The fact that I used humor when making those points? Yes, I admit it! I'm a Big, Mean, Green Ogre!!!Or perhaps you and those of your ilk are just a wee bit thin-skinned. P.S. Sue, your screen name gave me an idea: perhaps Brent should sue me for Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress! I would be more than happy to represent him, but there are two problems with that arrangement: (1) It would be rather a conflict of interest, since I'm the defendant; and (2) I haven't passed the Bar yet. CI? Smac97? What about it? Anybody with the requisite credentials willing to represent Brent in his case against me? Link to comment
Krisjhn Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Are you suggesting God is not all-powerful?God is not all powerful. I know it is childish but the question can God make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it actually has a lot of insight in it. Gods power comes from his obedience to the laws of the priesthood. God cannot act outside those laws or he ceases to become God. If God has a physical body, how can He be in more than one place at once?Brent, not to pick on you...you are getting hit from all sides on this...The best way for me to understand the idea of God having a body and being everywhere at once is to understand this passage of scripture in Revelations 21: 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. So Brent lets say you overcome and thus you get to inherit all things. Well if you get to inherit ALL things what about me? What if I overcome? How can you and I both inherit ALL things. It is not possible. Either one of use gets ALL or the other does.Unless, the all things being refered to is intellect and knowledge. Then both you and I can inherit it. Knowledge is the one thing that can be shared with everybody and there it always more left over. I see God being everwhere at once in the same regard. His influence and knowledge are everywhere, but his body is in one place. I hope this makes sense. Link to comment
The Traveler Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Jesus was once a man. Why would a Christian ask this question?The Traveler Link to comment
The Traveler Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 I see God being everwhere at once in the same regard. His influence and knowledge are everywhere, but his body is in one place. I hope this makes sense. It does not make sense to me. G-d is not in evil. Also man is fallen - man fell from G-d the Father and his heavenly place. If G-d the Father is every place than man is not fallen and has no need of a Mediator or Redeemer. If G-d is every where then we have no need of a "way" back.The Traveler Link to comment
Zakuska Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Here's a paradox for you... If man was cast out of the Garden (ie out of Gods presence) then man cannot exist since God being everywhere there wouldn't be a place for man to be cast out of his presence too since his presence is everywhere, including in the man that is being cast out so how can a man be cast out of his self...Im getting dizzy just thinking about it!!!!If Im not mitasken the bible doesnt say God is every where... just that there is nowhere a "man" can go to escape the all seeing eye of God. Link to comment
suem Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Kenngo1969 Posted on Jul 13 2005, 02:26 PM What, exactly, "wasn't very nice" about my previous post, SueM? The fact that I'm skeptical that the Church of which I'm a faithful member (and its doctrines) is/are such a flimsy house(s) of cards that it/they can be demolished by one Scripture from the Bible? The fact that I think anyone who believes that it/they can be so easily demolished is more than just a little naive? The fact that I used humor when making those points? Yes, I admit it! I'm a Big, Mean, Green Ogre!!!Or perhaps you and those of your ilk are just a wee bit thin-skinned. Thin-skinned? I think not. Considerate of others? Yes. Perhaps I don't get your sense of humor. Perhaps it is a bit too crass for me. In any case, I feel that a representative of the ONE true church that spends much time and money trying to recruit new members (and hold onto the ones they have) should be a little more kind and leave the sarcasm out of it.Just out of curiosity, why do people capitalize the "s" in my ID? And why did you capitalize the "m"? It is no big deal to me, but people (on this board and others) do it all the time. I find it curious. Link to comment
Hemidakota Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 I understand there is debate over what was truly said on that day of the King Folette discourse, but humor me. Most of my LDS friends will say Joe's words are taken out of context and/or improperly recorded. That is an acceptable answer.If Joseph really did say that, however, he was in direct contradiction with Moroni 8:18 and Mormon 9:9-10. Both scriptures are taken out of content.ANSWER: If you could seen HIM, then you will know for sure HE is a gloryfied man. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Kenngo1969 Posted on Jul 13 2005, 02:26 PM What, exactly, "wasn't very nice" about my previous post, SueM? The fact that I'm skeptical that the Church of which I'm a faithful member (and its doctrines) is/are such a flimsy house(s) of cards that it/they can be demolished by one Scripture from the Bible? The fact that I think anyone who believes that it/they can be so easily demolished is more than just a little naive? The fact that I used humor when making those points? Yes, I admit it! I'm a Big, Mean, Green Ogre!!!Or perhaps you and those of your ilk are just a wee bit thin-skinned. Thin-skinned? I think not. Considerate of others? Yes. Perhaps I don't get your sense of humor. Perhaps it is a bit too crass for me. In any case, I feel that a representative of the ONE true church that spends much time and money trying to recruit new members (and hold onto the ones they have) should be a little more kind and leave the sarcasm out of it.Just out of curiosity, why do people capitalize the "s" in my ID? And why did you capitalize the "m"? It is no big deal to me, but people (on this board and others) do it all the time. I find it curious. Might I answer... Because it follows proper internet user name parameters.Capital First Leter First name 'S' ue, Capial Letter of the Last name 'M'. Link to comment
Krisjhn Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 It does not make sense to me. G-d is not in evil.Also man is fallen - man fell from G-d the Father and his heavenly place. If G-d the Father is every place than man is not fallen and has no need of a Mediator or Redeemer. If G-d is every where then we have no need of a "way" back.Travellor, if you reread my post I state that the intellect and knowledge of God is everywhere.. This does not make Him evil [i am not sure I even understand that statement are you suggesting that only evil can be everywhere?] The influence of God and His knowledge are everywhere. The fact that the Earth circles the sun and all the stars are in their place testify to this. I think you confuse God's presence with God's intellect and knowledge. We have need of a way back so that we may be in His presence. You are correct in that we fell and are no longer in His presence. But we are still surrounded by His influence and knowledge. God's influence, knowledge, and intellect can be everywhere while His body or presence remains in His glorified kingdom to which we all hope one day to return. Link to comment
Proverbs_28_1 Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 I voted No. Not at as man here on earth. I think he took on a body at one point in his existence but I do not know when/how. Link to comment
Restformationist Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 I believe God took on flesh to provide atonement for our sins and so that we will be resurrected from the dead. Furthermore, so that we can have a relationship with God the Father through Christ. So do Mormons. I never said otherwise. Link to comment
Restformationist Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 I believe God took on flesh to provide atonement for our sins and so that we will be resurrected from the dead. Furthermore, so that we can have a relationship with God the Father through Christ. Brent,I have a question for you - not to be argumentative but interested in how you reconcile this.I assume you believe that God took on flesh as the man Jesus Christ. Christ died and was resurrected with a glorified, perfect body.Where is that body of God's now? Good questions.Yes, I believe as you said.Where is His body now? Christ descended; I suspect His body dematerialized. Link to comment
Restformationist Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 Ok, it appears some people do genuinely believe God is not eternal, but was once a mortal, sinful man just like me. (Correct me if I've misunderstood.) To those people I ask, who created this exalted man (God) of ours? Wouldn't there have to be a high God who created all things, including God? Link to comment
Zakuska Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Looks like some one needs to re read 1 Corinthinas 15 again. Paul answers the question of Jans and its not what you just said.Dematerialized? Christ "descended" before he was raised from the dead. He was on his way back up Jacobs ladder when Mary saw him at the tomb. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Ok, it appears some people do genuinely believe God is not eternal, but was once a mortal, sinful man just like me. (Correct me if I've misunderstood.) To those people I ask, who created this exalted man (God) of ours? Wouldn't there have to be a high God who created all things, including God? Hmm. Justin Martyr asked the same question. Link to comment
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