An examination of the test.

[ZealouslyStriving]

4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’ve never heard an active member claim this. 

 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Quote

Nope.  Grace applies in the complete absence of works, and there is in any case no work that you can do to pay the price for your sins.  That is what the infinite atonement of Jesus Christ is for.  All one has to do is accept the offer Jesus makes, and that is done by faith (belief), repentance, etc.  God wants you to come back and join the family.  His plan of salvation is very clever.

I’ve never heard an active member claim this. 

Well, you have now.  Just what part of nope don't you understand?

“after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.”  2 Nephi 10:24

We must rely “wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.” 2 Ne 31:19

Abinadi’s midrash on Isaiah 52:7 tells us what the Gospel (Good News/Tidings) is all about:

O how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet

of him that bringeth good tidings,

                                that is the founder of peace,

                                yea, even the Lord, who has redeemed his people;

                                yea, him who has granted salvation unto his people;   Mosiah 15:18

Which is really the whole point of Christmas.

[tana]

On 12/23/2024 at 11:07 AM, MrShorty said:

So, it seems that the test is in two parts -- 1) Discerning "What God says," and 2) doing it. It often seems to me that the first half is as difficult if not more difficult. I would even venture to say that most of the really hard, divisive questions tend to be questions around exactly what God said, if He said something at all.

Did God, through Samuel, command Saul to slaughter his neighbors?
Did God command/approve of slavery throughout Biblical history?
Did God command the 19th century church to withhold priesthood and temple blessings from Black Africans?
Does God command trans-gender people to abstain from any kind of gender transition?
Does God command people to abstain from tea?

It seems to me that a big part of the need for mercy and grace is that our ability to discern God's will is imperfect.

Yeah, it's just not very clear is it MrShorty. So, what does that leave us with to try to sort things out... Our logic I guess.

Dividing 150 billion souls up into four classes without having anyone on the cut line is hard for me to envision. To say that all it takes for one to be in is to accept Jesus as ones savior and that there will be no scrutinizing of levels of sincere-ness is forgetting about guys like Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart. Isn't it?

 

Edited January 18, 2025 by tana

[MrShorty]

On 1/17/2025 at 7:44 PM, tana said:

To say that all it takes for one to be in is to accept Jesus as ones savior and that there will be no scrutinizing of levels of sincere-ness is forgetting about guys like Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart. Isn't it?

I don't know that I can speak to this in any thorough way, but this idea of sincerity intrigues me. I went through a thought train recently and, though I can't remember the details, the conclusion was to suggest that maybe God is more interested in being sincere about our beliefs rather than the being absolutely correct in our beliefs. It might have been in response to someone's observation that God grants some Christians  spiritual witness that the Book of Mormon is scripture that the Joseph Smith was a prophet, while He grants to another Christian an opposite spiritual witness. The thinking would be that God doesn't care exactly what we believe, as long as we are sincere. Of course, I eventually bump up against something that seems so "wrong" that even sincerity seems unable to redeem the belief. Referring to the list I gave, if I sincerely believe that God wants me to kill my neighbors, is that sincerity enough to absolve me of sin?

I don't know the answers, but sincerity does seem to be something to consider here. My LDS upbringing has taught me to believe that God knows how to "reeducate" people in the next life, so maybe being sincere is more important than being correct (at least in most things).

[webbles]

On 1/17/2025 at 7:44 PM, tana said:

Dividing 150 billion souls up into four classes without having anyone on the cut line is hard for me to envision. To say that all it takes for one to be in is to accept Jesus as ones savior and that there will be no scrutinizing of levels of sincere-ness is forgetting about guys like Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart. Isn't it?

Won't everyone know how sincere they are?  Won't they be able to know whether they are sincere enough to go to the Celestial Kingdom or not sincere enough?  I think everyone involved will know where they go.  No one will complain about being above the "cut" or below because we will know our own sincerity and behavior.

[MustardSeed]

On 12/24/2024 at 2:08 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Well, you have now.  Just what part of nope don't you understand?

“after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.”  2 Nephi 10:24

We must rely “wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.” 2 Ne 31:19

Abinadi’s midrash on Isaiah 52:7 tells us what the Gospel (Good News/Tidings) is all about:

O how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet

of him that bringeth good tidings,

                                that is the founder of peace,

                                yea, even the Lord, who has redeemed his people;

                                yea, him who has granted salvation unto his people;   Mosiah 15:18

Which is really the whole point of Christmas.

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.  There has always been an emphasis on works in our church- and much of our reputation outside the church is based on that reality.  It feels dismissive to be denied my experience and understanding that significant weight on works has been a thing. 
 

I get that Grace is the much better part of what we believe in- and I wish that my whole life the emphasis had been on Grace in the youth program especially. I’m fighting for my spiritual life now days to lean into messages of Grace and not battle all the previous and honestly current messaging that I need to do and be more. 

[MustardSeed]

Just now, MustardSeed said:

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.  There has always been an emphasis on works in our church- and much of our reputation outside the church is based on that reality.  It feels dismissive to be denied my experience and understanding that significant weight on works has been a thing. 
 

I get that Grace is the much better part of what we believe in- and I wish that my whole life the emphasis had been on Grace in the youth program especially. I’m fighting for my spiritual life now days to lean into messages of Grace and not battle all the previous and honestly current messaging that I need to do and be more. 

And, I’ll add, I much prefer a message of grace.  It’s much more hopeful and compassionate.   I’m on board 💯 

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.  There has always been an emphasis on works in our church- and much of our reputation outside the church is based on that reality.  It feels dismissive to be denied my experience and understanding that significant weight on works has been a thing. 

No, you are not crazy, and Martin Luther himself did not understand the meaning.  Jesus himself emphasizes works: 

Quote

Matthew 16:27 "he shall reward every man according to his works."  John 5:29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."  (Matthew 5:16, 7:16, 13:23, 25:40, Luke 6:35, John 3:21, 8:39, 14:15; 1 Nephi 15:32-33, 2 Nephi 9:44, Mosiah 3:24, 16:10, Alma 7:27, 9:28, 3 Nephi 12:16, 26:4, 27:11-15, Mormon 3:18,20, 6:21, Moroni 7:5)

So, why does his brother James emphasize faith (grace)?

5 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I get that Grace is the much better part of what we believe in- and I wish that my whole life the emphasis had been on Grace in the youth program especially. I’m fighting for my spiritual life now days to lean into messages of Grace and not battle all the previous and honestly current messaging that I need to do and be more. 

As the Epistle of James points out repeatedly, faith without works is dead as a body without a soul.  Yet faith is all you really need -- the grace provided by Jesus, His infinite atonement.  The thing is that faith is shown forth by works.  The faithful are known by their fruits.  Yet, those works or fruits are not necessary at the outset.  They are merely epiphenomena.   After all, anyone can pretend to have faith and do good works so as to be approved of men (Matthew 6:1).  That is why it is true to say, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

[tana]

It seems to me that a prime example of the point I'm shooting for is Jimmy Swag. He gets caught visiting prostitutes, claims to repent, then a few years later gets caught again. For all we know this guy is just claiming to love Jesus to fleece flocks but is actually a bigger atheist than Mr. Spock.

 

If it is just up to us to put ourselves in the proper place in the hereafter what would keep a liar from just continuing to lie at the pearly gates? A scrutinizer. And not based on spirit brain chip schematics or reading passing thoughts, but behavior. Accepting Jesus must also be a rateable behavior.

[webbles]

7 minutes ago, tana said:

It seems to me that a prime example of the point I'm shooting for is Jimmy Swag. He gets caught visiting prostitutes, claims to repent, then a few years later gets caught again. For all we know this guy is just claiming to love Jesus to fleece flocks but is actually a bigger atheist than Mr. Spock.

 

If it is just up to us to put ourselves in the proper place in the hereafter what would keep a liar from just continuing to lie at the pearly gates? A scrutinizer. And not based on spirit brain chip schematics or reading passing thoughts, but behavior. Accepting Jesus must also be a rateable behavior.

Why do you think we could lie ourselves through?  God knows our heart.  We know our heart.  It isn't something you can fake in front of God.

[tana]

All stages of the LDS ideas of incarnations are testing stations. Except for The highest level of the CK, and perhaps the uncreated intelligence realm. The temporary eternal punishment stages must also be testing stages as it seems people can eventually move up. During all of these stages the person is not perfect and so therefor could potentially be deceitful. The only thing then that would be a check on keeping people from lying their way up would be an outside rater system/guy Again, this must be behavior based because if god could just do a read out on the spirit brain chip schematics  there would be no need for any testing stations at all.

Edited January 20, 2025 by tana

[webbles]

22 minutes ago, tana said:

All stages of the LDS ideas of incarnations are testing stations. Except for The highest level of the CK, and perhaps the uncreated intelligence realm. The temporary eternal punishment stages must also be testing stages as it seems people can eventually move up. During all of these stages the person is not perfect and so therefor could potentially be deceitful. The only thing then that would be a check on keeping people from lying their way up would be an outside rater system/guy Again, this must be behavior based because if god could just do a read out on the spirit brain chip schematics  there would be no need for any testing stations at all.

Umm, how does someone lie to God?  I don't understand your point.

[tana]

I think what you're saying is there in not an outside of the person watchdog. The person is just rating himself and placing himself in the proper spot according to his conscience. He/she does this because they know that if they tried to cheat the system an outside watchdog would catch them.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, tana said:

Again, this must be behavior based because if god could just do a read out on the spirit brain chip schematics  there would be no need for any testing stations at all.

Unless it’s about who we become through the testing…muscles tested by weight lifting become stronger.  Well made tests in schools will have you end up more skilled and perhaps more knowledgeable than before you took it.  I have talked to musicians and singers who say performances (a test) improve their skills, there is something in performing that affects them differently than just practicing on their own.  I don’t know if every musician or artist feels the same.

Also maybe there is something about the Spirit and being in the presence of God that prevents you from lying to yourself.  That somehow he shows us who we are as he truly sees us.  Hard to lie if so and may be a needed confrontation to break past a habit of lying to ourselves so we can move on to the next stage.

Edited January 20, 2025 by Calm

[Nofear]

9 hours ago, tana said:

Again, this must be behavior based because if god could just do a read out on the spirit brain chip schematics  there would be no need for any testing stations at all.

In addition to Calm's insightful statement, I'll add an additional thought.

Each of us contains some degree of imperfection that inclines us to behaviors contrary to God's will or behavior that would be inconsistent with a Celestial Society. But, the inclination does not compel us. Competing attributes within in our core being can help us choose the good instead of the bad. Justice, however, has no claim on inclination*. Justice punishes the actions. All of us, could, in theory go through this life without sinning. None of us do/did (save one). We all sin. But we don't have to sin. Even though God knows we'll fail, he does not judge us Minority Report style.

The Atonement, in part, is about changing our fundamental nature (something we cannot do ourselves) -- removing even the inclination to sin. This is a grace, an open mercy, not something we deserve or can earn in anyway. At the same time, God does not (cannot) force the power of the Atonement upon us. It is made freely and openly to us all but we nonetheless have to partake of the Atonement. That does require some effort on our part. Our works, in a manner consistent with Calm's post, are part of what enables us to partake of the Atonement freely made available to us to access.

 

* Exaltation has a more exacting standard than just not sinning. One does not simply grant all power to an individual who suppresses the inclination to do bad. If there is even a minuscule chance that one might give into a bad inclination than Exaltation will be withheld. The inclinations must be purged, a process we call sanctification.

[Mfbnew]

On 12/20/2024 at 6:14 PM, tana said:

I've always been a bit fascinated with trying to imagine the actual logistics of how things in a deity based existence theory could work. Take for instance the merit/reward and punishment aspect. How can it work?
 

Yeah, I can see that would a little hard to understand because like all of us, you are NOT a god, nor are you GOD HIMSELF.

You make God into a living human and then try to figure out how HE does stuff.

Best wishes.

Ants are not Einsteins.

You either feel in your heart that HE has it covered, or you don't.

[manol]

On 12/20/2024 at 9:15 PM, Calm said:

My envisioned method is we are “punished” by living the same experiences we put others through when at some time after death, but before resurrection we share each others’ memories to such a degree it is as if we lived their lives. So the pain and suffering they experienced becomes our pain. And while some causes of the pain is likely healed or perhaps even all for those who accept the atonement, for those who haven’t fully accepted the atonement they won’t be able to comprehend what it is, so they will feel the pain even if the person who originally suffered it no longer does.

Doesn’t need any calculation because the experience is what matters, not how wrong or sinful something was.

However, the purpose of the sharing isn’t actually punishment, but learning. I don’t see justice as so important in an eternal sense that it justifies punishment that has no effect on someone save to make them suffer the torment that they ‘earned’ through bad deeds.  So one experiences the pain they caused others so they can learn that they should care about hurting others and therefore they no longer desire to sin in that way.

Apologies for the zombie thread thing, but I just came across an interview with a near-death experiencer that brought to mind this post of yours.  As you can see by the time lapsed between then and now (over nine months), your post made a lasting impression on me. 

The person describes a life review in which her friends-on-the-other-side are able to "step into" her earth-life experiences and experience them as if they were there themselves!  The video linked below is cued up to where that part starts, about 2:06, and you might watch until about 7:00.  I think she presents an interesting perspective which is consistent with your idea that learning, rather than punishment, is what we get out of our mistakes... and perhaps even out of others' mistakes as well.  She also presents an interesting description of who or what we really are, which is in some ways reminiscent of D&C 88.  Turn on closed captioning if you'd rather read than listen.  You might need to run some of what she says through your filters but imo there's some good stuff here:

She DIED During Surgery & Learned The Truth About Heaven, Hell & Humanity - YouTube

 

Edited August 31, 2025 by manol

[Calm]

4 hours ago, manol said:

Apologies for the zombie thread thing

I was excited to see Mfb made it back.  But it was not to be…

[Navidad]

On 12/21/2024 at 1:36 PM, Calm said:

Telestial and Terrestrial are heavens of glory, not realms of punishment. 
 

And if teachings are correct (referred to by webbles), it won’t suck because we will be as joyful or happy as we can possibly be in the state of being/place we find ourselves postjudgment.  Judgment fulfills our desires more than anything else, imo; the punishment if there was any, takes place prior to judgment on our heavenly destination.

And by the time judgment comes around we likely will know ourselves well enough to actually understand what our true desires are and not just wishes based on false assumptions of what we like and don’t like if given to us without strings attached (iow, if there is no personal investment needed, if we don’t have to show our actual level of interest, how do we know we are truly interested?)

For me, living for eternity in the absence of the Father and Son would be hell in the sense of sheol.

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, Navidad said:

For me, living for eternity in the absence of the Father and Son would be hell in the sense of sheol.

That is, imo, a reasonable interpretation if one focuses on what is missing in those Kingdoms and one desires most what is absent there.

But I think that ignores that if one desires to be with the Father and the Son so much, that any place without them would be hell, no matter how glorious, one will be accepting the gifts of God that allow one to progress further and accept the ultimate blessings of being fully one with God, so they won’t end up in the Telestial or the Terrestrial.

Speculation:  IOW, such places won’t be hell for those who are there because they won’t desire more, but prefer not to be where the Father and the Son are.  That may be hard to believe for some, that anyone knowing the possibility of what God offers in love would refuse it.  I find it easy to believe if we stayed in the same place mentally, emotionally, and spiritually as we are at death for eternity, but LDS doctrine rejects that limitation, imo.  At the very least even the most sinful (with the exception of the very few Sons of Perdition who are a very unusual case of once being among the most godly of humans to have such a clear understanding and acceptance of God and yet turn away from him to the point they would crucify Christ again) are purified, made sinless as in no longer desiring to sin (otherwise how could they abide even the glory of God that exists in the Telestial?).  If all are purified, then it becomes imo more about how much we are willing to accept from God, how much we are willing to align our wills with his.  And I personally believe given the framework of eternity, endless time, that as time goes on and we experience the benefits of even the most limited alignment, our hearts will be softened and we will turn more to God and accept more.  So I believe in progression within and between the Kingdoms.

Edited August 31, 2025 by Calm

[Navidad]

I don't think God begins from a position of neutrality. I believe verses like John 3:17, "For God sent not his son into the the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." Even if the word might is subjunctive, it implies an intent. Therefore, God the Father and Christ at the judgment day will be seeking to save, not to condemn. I really don't understand the concept of exaltation. I understand sanctification. Perhaps exaltation is sanctification (becoming more like Christ) the continues into the heavenlies. In fact, I am pretty sure it will as we learn and grow in the eternities. 

We know Christ is the "way," which means to me that Christ decides . . . No one is allowed to the Father except by Him (Christ). So Christ is the center point of salvation - the means, the process, and the decider-in-chief. Grace is the causative factor; works are the symptoms. I find grace comforting. In the opposite sense, sometimes we see racism as a causative factor -the problem to be solved. It isn't. It is but a symptom of the causative factors, which include ranking, generalizing, normalizing, dehumanizing, onlying, and othering. That's why we can't solve racial challenges. We focus on the symptom, not the causes.

So it is with the positive side. Grace is the cause; works are the symptoms - the outward evidence of the inward increase of grace and the fruits of the spirit. I don't worry about the sins bothering Christ that much in the future, but the lack of the manifestation of the gifts and fruits that He grants us. We already know that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." That is a given. If that is the data point of the scale, we are all condemned.  Certitude (certainty) can be seen as a sin. I see it that way. Certainty is a causal factor, not a symptom. Arrogance, pride, and exclusivity are the symptoms. When I think of the judgment seat, I want to dig deeper into what will be the causes involved in how Christ will decide, given his stated preference that all be saved. 

Sorry, I did this rushing. It is going to rain, and I have animals to feed. They won't mind the rain. I will. Bye for now.