An examination of the test.

[2BizE]

It is always good to see someone apply critical thinking skills regarding religious beliefs. Keep thinking.

[tana]

Thank you  for the excellent input everyone.

I think that a person could easily conclude from the writings that God is very particular as to how he wants things done and is pretty harsh on people who don't keep up. From ancient mass casualty events to the one slated for later. According to D&C 64 I am scheduled for being burned. To say anything other almost feels like falling into - saved by grace, not by works.

 

But, even saved by grace is going to be a judgement call by god. I mean, yes we are saved by grace but you still gotta do the work. You still have to be a decent human.

I do get it though, when someone excepts Jesus into their heart and is born again they automatically are compelled to do good things. I still want to challenge though that every one of these people that become born again do so at different levels of faith, or conviction. Everyone, and I do mean everyone is going to have some level of doubt, since no one actually knows for scientific certainty what happens to the consciousness when we die.

And so, someone, God, is going to have to make some tough calls as to what level of born again conviction makes the cut. How will he do that - I'm just trying to thought experiment a way that he might go about it. That's all.

[tana]

2 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

It is always good to see someone apply critical thinking skills regarding religious beliefs. Keep thinking.

Thanks guy!

[webbles]

18 minutes ago, tana said:

I think that a person could easily conclude from the writings that God is very particular as to how he wants things done and is pretty harsh on people who don't keep up. From ancient mass casualty events to the one slated for later. According to D&C 64 I am scheduled for being burned. To say anything other almost feels like falling into - saved by grace, not by works.

The burning in D&C 64 is about the Lord's coming, not the final judgement.  I thought you were talking about only the final judgement.

 

[tana]

Just citing precedent for why there is no reason to believe God will be lenient at finals.

In D&C 64 God says those who don't pay tithing will be burned. Do you think that that means everyone on the planet who don't pay LDS tithing, or just the LDS members who do not pay LDS tithing?

Edited December 22, 2024 by tana

[webbles]

27 minutes ago, tana said:

Just citing precedent for why there is no reason to believe God will be lenient at finals.

In D&C 64 God says those who don't pay tithing will be burned. Do you think that that means everyone on the planet who don't pay LDS tithing, or just the LDS members who do not pay LDS tithing?

It actually says:

Quote

Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.

It doesn't say that those who don't pay will be burned.  Only that those who do pay will not be burned.  That implies that some who don't pay will be burned, but it doesn't mean everyone.  Since we believe that people of other faith will still be alive in the millennium, then there will be those that aren't tithed that survive.  Also, it only talks about burning, so someone who is tithed can still die at His coming but just through other means.

But I don't see what this has anything to do with the final judgement.  It is a vastly different situation.  Final Judgment is final.  When and how a person dies in this life doesn't stop their "test".

[tana]

Well, all we have to go off for what to expect at final is what God has shown so far. In the pre-existence he dealt pretty harshly with the one third, and it was once taught the less valiant were sanctioned. In the mortal he drowned the entire planet and has fire planned for his next kill off. What reason is there to think the test in the hereafter will be easier?

[manol]

3 hours ago, tana said:

I think that a person could easily conclude from the writings that God is very particular as to how he wants things done and is pretty harsh on people who don't keep up.

 

2 hours ago, tana said:

there is no reason to believe God will be lenient at finals.

 

1 hour ago, tana said:

all we have to go off for what to expect at final is what God has shown so far.

 

Despite the preponderance of the evidence found in “the writings”, in my opinion we have no truly valid reason to fear God. Imo the fearful language found in “the writings” is there for effect, rather than because it is the highest level of truth on the subject. See D&C 19:6-12.

Imo “the writings” are not God's only means of communicating with us. And perhaps sometimes their fear-inducing language is designed to impel us to “seek, that [we] may find”.

Consider the following sentence to be entirely hypothetical: The message of “the writings” is not necessarily the same as the message of “the experiences”.

But imo even in "the writings" there are hints of something extraordinarily hopeful. 

Edited December 22, 2024 by manol

[webbles]

34 minutes ago, tana said:

Well, all we have to go off for what to expect at final is what God has shown so far. In the pre-existence he dealt pretty harshly with the one third, and it was once taught the less valiant were sanctioned. In the mortal he drowned the entire planet and has fire planned for his next kill off. What reason is there to think the test in the hereafter will be easier?

The expulsion of the third part is similar to the final judgment for the rest of us after our death.  But we have absolutely no idea on what was used to determine who was thrown out.  It could have been a full on spiritual war with spirit tanks, bazookas, f-35s, etc (it would be really awesome if it was) and so those on the loosing side was lost.  Or it could have been a really nit picky type of judgement based on how many times they looked at Lucifer.  We have no idea, though, so using it to determine what the final judgement will be like is useless.

Who dies and when they die and whether it is God caused (flood, burning, etc) in this mortal realm is nothing like the final judgement.  It isn't final!  I don't see any reason it should be used to explain the final judgement.

[tana]

This kinda reminds me of a divorce I went through 20 years ago. My ex explained that all would go just swimmingly for everyone -  as long as I went along with all of her writings scriptures demands.

Similarly, all will be well for those who believe. I sure hope it turns out I'm right as I don't think one can reason with a holy hand grenade.

[webbles]

 

1 hour ago, tana said:

This kinda reminds me of a divorce I went through 20 years ago. My ex explained that all would go just swimmingly for everyone -  as long as I went along with all of her writings scriptures demands.

Similarly, all will be well for those who believe. I sure hope it turns out I'm right as I don't think one can reason with a holy hand grenade.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

 

But D&C 76 does explain how the final test will work and I think it shows that it isn't a scoring system.

Let's start at the Telestial Kingdom.   In verse 103, it says:

Quote

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

That sounds like a scoring system since it says that if you are one of those, you go to the Telestial Kingdom.  But how does Christ's atonement work for that?  Does that really mean that John Taylor (who lied about polygamy in his France mission) is going to the Telestial Kingdom?

It also says in verse 82 and 83:

Quote

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

And I think this is important.  Because it is saying they didn't accept Christ (but also didn't deny the Holy Spirit as that sends them to Outer Darkness).  So they didn't accept His atonement.  They have to suffer for their sins instead of letting Christ do it for them.  So, they aren't being judged on how many sins they committed or even what type of sins they committed.  They are being judged on whether they accepted Christ or not.  That's a pretty easy scoring system.  A true/false question.

Let's now move to the Terestrial Kingdom.  At this point, what sins they committed doesn't matter because they accepted Christ.  So how are they judged?

Verses 74, 75, and 79 describe them:

Quote

74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus;

To me, this appears to be decided on how strongly the person accepted Christ.  The meaning of the first verse has to be tweaked a bit because of later revelation (D&C 137: 7-8) that says that those who had no opportunity in this life can accept Christ and still reach the Celestial Kingdom.  I think D&C 137: 9 is also useful to explain it.

Quote

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

So, the scoring system that separates Terrestrial and Celestial is based on how much the person desires to follow Christ and how much effort (works) the person puts into it.  If a person just accepts Christ and doesn't put any work into it, then they would be in the Terrestrial.  If a person accepts Christ and desires to do a lot but isn't able to, then they would be in the Celestial.  It isn't a pure calculation on what the person did, it has to take into account what the person also desires.  And that's why I think this is more based on the person's trajectory instead of just what they actually did.  As long as a person desires and strives to be more Christlike, they make it.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 12/20/2024 at 7:14 PM, tana said:

I've always been a bit fascinated with trying to imagine the actual logistics of how things in a deity based existence theory could work. Take for instance the merit/reward and punishment aspect. How can it work?
.......................

So, eventually we come to the finish line and are waiting to see if we made the cut. It's a very precise cut. It has nothing to do with mercy or austerity, only absolute fairness and a person could miss the cut by a billionth of a billionth of a percentage point. Mercy and austerity are relative.  God can't just let someone in because they're really close and he's in a good mood. If he lets them in he has just simply lowered the bar for everyone.........................

Both Jews and Latter-day Saints believe that we are saved by grace, not by works.  God's quantum computer may indeed keep track of everything, including the tab we have run up against natural law, but our Redeemer paid that price already.  We merely have to accept his kind offer.  Either here or hereafter.

[CV75]

23 hours ago, tana said:

Thank you  for the excellent input everyone.

I think that a person could easily conclude from the writings that God is very particular as to how he wants things done and is pretty harsh on people who don't keep up. From ancient mass casualty events to the one slated for later. According to D&C 64 I am scheduled for being burned. To say anything other almost feels like falling into - saved by grace, not by works.

 

But, even saved by grace is going to be a judgement call by god. I mean, yes we are saved by grace but you still gotta do the work. You still have to be a decent human.

I do get it though, when someone excepts Jesus into their heart and is born again they automatically are compelled to do good things. I still want to challenge though that every one of these people that become born again do so at different levels of faith, or conviction. Everyone, and I do mean everyone is going to have some level of doubt, since no one actually knows for scientific certainty what happens to the consciousness when we die.

And so, someone, God, is going to have to make some tough calls as to what level of born again conviction makes the cut. How will he do that - I'm just trying to thought experiment a way that he might go about it. That's all.

I think we determine the kingdom in which we dwell by what we have become (the glory by which we are quickened), not by some externally measured threshold of achievement that we might barely miss or exceed, and what we become is whatever we are comfortable with. I think we will be given opportunity to achieve our highest aspirations, or to compromise and settle as the case may be. It isn't easy holding off being quickened until we are perfect in Christ, but I think He would say it is worth it. Some may believe that and wait, and others may choose a more immediate quickening. He may even have His own timing in mind (first, second, last resurrections, etc.), which we will find to be quite satisfactory (just, merciful and graceful).

[tana]

On 12/21/2024 at 9:27 PM, tana said:

This kinda reminds me of a divorce I went through 20 years ago. My ex explained that all would go just swimmingly for everyone -  as long as I went along with all of her writings scriptures demands.

Similarly, all will be well for those who believe. I sure hope it turns out I'm right as I don't think one can reason with a holy hand grenade.

 

On 12/21/2024 at 11:21 PM, webbles said:

 

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

 

But D&C 76 does explain how the final test will work and I think it shows that it isn't a scoring system.

Let's start at the Telestial Kingdom.   In verse 103, it says:

That sounds like a scoring system since it says that if you are one of those, you go to the Telestial Kingdom.  But how does Christ's atonement work for that?  Does that really mean that John Taylor (who lied about polygamy in his France mission) is going to the Telestial Kingdom?

It also says in verse 82 and 83:

And I think this is important.  Because it is saying they didn't accept Christ (but also didn't deny the Holy Spirit as that sends them to Outer Darkness).  So they didn't accept His atonement.  They have to suffer for their sins instead of letting Christ do it for them.  So, they aren't being judged on how many sins they committed or even what type of sins they committed.  They are being judged on whether they accepted Christ or not.  That's a pretty easy scoring system.  A true/false question.

Let's now move to the Terestrial Kingdom.  At this point, what sins they committed doesn't matter because they accepted Christ.  So how are they judged?

Verses 74, 75, and 79 describe them:

To me, this appears to be decided on how strongly the person accepted Christ.  The meaning of the first verse has to be tweaked a bit because of later revelation (D&C 137: 7-8) that says that those who had no opportunity in this life can accept Christ and still reach the Celestial Kingdom.  I think D&C 137: 9 is also useful to explain it.

So, the scoring system that separates Terrestrial and Celestial is based on how much the person desires to follow Christ and how much effort (works) the person puts into it.  If a person just accepts Christ and doesn't put any work into it, then they would be in the Terrestrial.  If a person accepts Christ and desires to do a lot but isn't able to, then they would be in the Celestial.  It isn't a pure calculation on what the person did, it has to take into account what the person also desires.  And that's why I think this is more based on the person's trajectory instead of just what they actually did.  As long as a person desires and strives to be more Christlike, they make it.

What I was trying to say is, mercy and austerity are relative. They are just simply the standards that are set. Replace the term mercy with 'reasonable'. God: I will be reasonable in my administration. I will deal justly in all things brought before me. My take is, mercy is a term people like to bandy about to evoke images of god being lenient on evil-doers, because they are part time evil-doers.  But the hard reality is, God is indeed merciful... as long as one does what he says. Don't do what he says and you better lawyer up because you are scheduled for the endless napalm drip.

 

I feel like you are extrapolating a lot from a little. But, if it works for you then, great.

 

 

 

 

,

[tana]

14 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Both Jews and Latter-day Saints believe that we are saved by grace, not by works.  God's quantum computer may indeed keep track of everything, including the tab we have run up against natural law, but our Redeemer paid that price already.  We merely have to accept his kind offer.  Either here or hereafter.

 

On 12/21/2024 at 5:50 PM, tana said:

 

 

But, even saved by grace is going to be a judgement call by god. I mean, yes we are saved by grace but you still gotta do the work. You still have to be a decent human.

I do get it though, when someone excepts Jesus into their heart and is born again they automatically are compelled to do good things. I still want to challenge though that every one of these people that become born again do so at different levels of faith, or conviction. Everyone, and I do mean everyone is going to have some level of doubt, since no one actually knows for scientific certainty what happens to the consciousness when we die.

And so, someone, God, is going to have to make some tough calls as to what level of born again conviction makes the cut. How will he do that - I'm just trying to thought experiment a way that he might go about it. That's all.

 

[tana]

15 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think we determine the kingdom in which we dwell by what we have become (the glory by which we are quickened), not by some externally measured threshold of achievement that we might barely miss or exceed, and what we become is whatever we are comfortable with. I think we will be given opportunity to achieve our highest aspirations, or to compromise and settle as the case may be. It isn't easy holding off being quickened until we are perfect in Christ, but I think He would say it is worth it. Some may believe that and wait, and others may choose a more immediate quickening. He may even have His own timing in mind (first, second, last resurrections, etc.), which we will find to be quite satisfactory (just, merciful and graceful).

It seems that many feel that everything above outer darkness is considered heaven. That even people that don't make top heaven will be just happy as a clam living for eternity as a TK smoothie. With nothing to do all day because he doesn't have grandkids to build swing sets for. He doesn't have kids/family/relatives to argue politics and religion with. He doesn't have a wife to share his innermost feeling with.

 

He doesn't have a job because he doesn't have to work because he doesn't have to provide for himself because he doesn't have to eat because he can't die. He's become bored with jumping into the wood chipper for fun. He has no idea how he's going to spend the rest of ever trying to figure out how to get endorphins to his brain.

 

It also seems that many feel that the pre and post existences are also testing phases. I'm guessing as an attempt to explain away the harshness and inequality of just the one mortal test to decide forever. If these are testing stations also then they can have no resemblance whatsoever to this mortal format of the carrot and the stick. The main thing being that since one cannot die there will be no mystery as to whether or not there is a soul that continues after death. There is no reason to indicate that the subject will not have full awareness of God since that is what got the one-third kicked out. They had full awareness and rejected him. I'd be curious then for someone to thought experiment on how a test in the spirit land might be formatted.

[webbles]

56 minutes ago, tana said:

And so, someone, God, is going to have to make some tough calls as to what level of born again conviction makes the cut. How will he do that - I'm just trying to thought experiment a way that he might go about it. That's all.

God isn't going to base the "cut" only on what we do but also on what we desire.  And for me, desire makes it obvious.  If I desire to be more like Christlike but also don't care to do the work, do I really desire it then?  I feel the judgment is going to be obvious to us because we know what we really desire.  It isn't going to be "Oh, Johnny only went tithed 9.9999999% of his income instead of the required 10%'.  Yes, actions are important as they are an outward expression of our desire.  But they don't always line up.  Someone could be a perfect tithe payer but be doing it for the wrong reason.

[webbles]

4 minutes ago, tana said:

It seems that many feel that everything above outer darkness is considered heaven. That even people that don't make top heaven will be just happy as a clam living for eternity as a TK smoothie. With nothing to do all day because he doesn't have grandkids to build swing sets for. He doesn't have kids/family/relatives to argue politics and religion with. He doesn't have a wife to share his innermost feeling with.

 

He doesn't have a job because he doesn't have to work because he doesn't have to provide for himself because he doesn't have to eat because he can't die. He's become bored with jumping into the wood chipper for fun. He has no idea how he's going to spend the rest of ever trying to figure out how to get endorphins to his brain.

Well, DC 76: 89 does say that the Telestial Kingdom's glory surpasses all understanding.  We have very little knowledge of what happens in there but it is apparently far better than we can possible imagine.

6 minutes ago, tana said:

It also seems that many feel that the pre and post existences are also testing phases. I'm guessing as an attempt to explain away the harshness and inequality of just the one mortal test to decide forever. If these are testing stations also then they can have no resemblance whatsoever to this mortal format of the carrot and the stick. The main thing being that since one cannot die there will be no mystery as to whether or not there is a soul that continues after death. There is no reason to indicate that the subject will not have full awareness of God since that is what got the one-third kicked out. They had full awareness and rejected him. I'd be curious then for someone to thought experiment on how a test in the spirit land might be formatted.

There are only 2 tests.  All of us passed the one in the pre-earth life as we all are born here.  The second test doesn't end till the final judgment.  Dying doesn't end the test.

[Benjamin McGuire]

1 hour ago, tana said:

It also seems that many feel that the pre and post existences are also testing phases. I'm guessing as an attempt to explain away the harshness and inequality of just the one mortal test to decide forever. If these are testing stations also then they can have no resemblance whatsoever to this mortal format of the carrot and the stick. The main thing being that since one cannot die there will be no mystery as to whether or not there is a soul that continues after death.

Or, as Elder James Talmage suggested:

Quote

It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase. - James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith [1899 edition] pp. 420-421

You seem to be inclined to believe that not only is there some sort of absolute in terms of judgement (the notion of an algorithm) but also that there is some sort of absolute in terms of post-mortal state - instead of a continuing eternal progression for everyone. Given an eternity, the rate of progression is simply a relative issue - allowing everyone the opportunity to progress to where God is now - even if for some it takes much, much longer than for others. And yet, even among the leaders of the LDS Church, we find those who disagree with these assumptions that you have.

It's not about whether there is testing going on. The testing that occurs in mortality seems to be related (at least according to 2 Nephi 2) to the limited free agency we are given in mortality. It seems obvious that we had some degree of agency in the pre-existence (or else there couldn't have been a choice). To the extent that we should consider mortality to be a test, why shouldn't we also consider that pre-existence to be some sort of test?

As to the "harshness and inequality" - that seems to have little basis in LDS theology that isn't speculative. And that makes this discussion difficult because you start from a position where there isn't any agreement and it isn't on solid theological footing. How should someone respond who starts from a position of belief that accepts that 1) eternal progression occurs for everyone who doesn't end up in outer darkness, and 2) that eternal progression allows for progression between kingdoms in that postmortal condition, meaning that everyone who inherits a kingdom of glory will eventually have the opportunity to gain celestial glory?

[MrShorty]

3 hours ago, tana said:

But the hard reality is, God is indeed merciful... as long as one does what he says. Don't do what he says and you better lawyer up because you are scheduled for the endless napalm drip.

So, it seems that the test is in two parts -- 1) Discerning "What God says," and 2) doing it. It often seems to me that the first half is as difficult if not more difficult. I would even venture to say that most of the really hard, divisive questions tend to be questions around exactly what God said, if He said something at all.

Did God, through Samuel, command Saul to slaughter his neighbors?
Did God command/approve of slavery throughout Biblical history?
Did God command the 19th century church to withhold priesthood and temple blessings from Black Africans?
Does God command trans-gender people to abstain from any kind of gender transition?
Does God command people to abstain from tea?

It seems to me that a big part of the need for mercy and grace is that our ability to discern God's will is imperfect.

[MustardSeed]

Personal experience and opinion here. 
 

I have on occasion been the recipient of somebody’s honest wholehearted apology. When that happens, all of my resentment and anger and hurt disappear as if it never existed.   
 

I imagine the afterlife providing all of us a clear sense of knowing…  Knowing how we have impacted others.  The knowing is the hell.  We will have opportunity to take accountability for those actions and to make restitution through accountability to those we have hurt.  This will heal them.  If we do not follow through with apology, we will continue to live in our own angst until we do apologize wholeheartedly. (I think most will.  Usually when we see the big picture and see ourselves clearly it’s easier to take accountability. )

We will be our own judge. No ledger needed.  It will be like nature, the knowing and the accountability.  
 

IMO. 

 

Edited December 23, 2024 by MustardSeed

[Robert F. Smith]

On 12/21/2024 at 6:50 PM, tana said:

..............................

I think that a person could easily conclude from the writings that God is very particular as to how he wants things done and is pretty harsh on people who don't keep up. From ancient mass casualty events to the one slated for later. According to D&C 64 I am scheduled for being burned. To say anything other almost feels like falling into - saved by grace, not by works.

Nope.  Grace applies in the complete absence of works, and there is in any case no work that you can do to pay the price for your sins.  That is what the infinite atonement of Jesus Christ is for.  All one has to do is accept the offer Jesus makes, and that is done by faith (belief), repentance, etc.  God wants you to come back and join the family.  His plan of salvation is very clever.

On 12/21/2024 at 6:50 PM, tana said:

 

But, even saved by grace is going to be a judgement call by god. I mean, yes we are saved by grace but you still gotta do the work. You still have to be a decent human.  

 

I do get it though, when someone excepts Jesus into their heart and is born again they automatically are compelled to do good things. I still want to challenge though that every one of these people that become born again do so at different levels of faith, or conviction. Everyone, and I do mean everyone is going to have some level of doubt, since no one actually knows for scientific certainty what happens to the consciousness when we die.  

 

And so, someone, God, is going to have to make some tough calls as to what level of born again conviction makes the cut. How will he do that - I'm just trying to thought experiment a way that he might go about it. That's all.

Nope.  You don't have to be a "decent human," and you don't "gotta do the work."  You don't have to make the cut with God.  This life is  not a competition.  He has got you covered, but only if you at least believe in him (John 3:16) and accept his generous offer, here or hereafter.

No one is "automatically ... compelled to do good things."  We are not robots or androids of God.  That was Satan's plan.

A human is always flawed, even if he is sincere.  God doesn't ask for perfection from you, only that you take a shot at it. And that applies both here and hereafter (where ordinances are done for and perhaps accepted by the dead).

 

[manol]

@tana, if you are open to the possibility of "all that God does now reveal" not being limited to official LDS sources, you might consider taking a look at what near-death experiencers have to say about why we're here, what really matters, how God sees us, that sort of thing. 

Here is a YouTube video which is a compilation of near-death experiencers describing meeting God on the other side.  The first clip is a man with an LDS background:

 

 

This particular YouTube channel has many such video compilations arranged by topic.  Imo we live at a unique time in human history where we have ready access to hundreds if not thousands of first-hand reports by those who have been on the other side and returned to report.

 

Edited December 24, 2024 by manol

[CV75]

10 hours ago, tana said:

It seems that many feel that everything above outer darkness is considered heaven. That even people that don't make top heaven will be just happy as a clam living for eternity as a TK smoothie. With nothing to do all day because he doesn't have grandkids to build swing sets for. He doesn't have kids/family/relatives to argue politics and religion with. He doesn't have a wife to share his innermost feeling with.

 

He doesn't have a job because he doesn't have to work because he doesn't have to provide for himself because he doesn't have to eat because he can't die. He's become bored with jumping into the wood chipper for fun. He has no idea how he's going to spend the rest of ever trying to figure out how to get endorphins to his brain.

 

It also seems that many feel that the pre and post existences are also testing phases. I'm guessing as an attempt to explain away the harshness and inequality of just the one mortal test to decide forever. If these are testing stations also then they can have no resemblance whatsoever to this mortal format of the carrot and the stick. The main thing being that since one cannot die there will be no mystery as to whether or not there is a soul that continues after death. There is no reason to indicate that the subject will not have full awareness of God since that is what got the one-third kicked out. They had full awareness and rejected him. I'd be curious then for someone to thought experiment on how a test in the spirit land might be formatted.

I think one has to be where they are before they determine whether they like it or not, and there is no harshness in inequality. "Test" means different things to different people, but I'd say the most neutral attitude toward it is that it represents an opportunity to progress. I think this is reflected in each estate (pre-mortal spirit, mortal soul, post-mortal spirit, resurrected soul). Opportunities to progress cease when the intelligence decides to stop "do[ing] all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them," and we see this happen in each estate also. I guess "casting out" and "cutting off" are just a couple of designations among the Lord's many spheres, mansions, kingdoms, glories, etc. He also exalts two parts more, at least did what was necessary to be able to offer them that.

PS If the third part are the accountable who never get bodies and the other two parts do get bodies, perhaps one part is accountable in mortality and the other part is not. The numbers in each of these three parts is unknown (to me), but seem pretty unequal (thank goodness!).

 

[MustardSeed]

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Nope.  Grace applies in the complete absence of works, and there is in any case no work that you can do to pay the price for your sins.  That is what the infinite atonement of Jesus Christ is for.  All one has to do is accept the offer Jesus makes, and that is done by faith (belief), repentance, etc.  God wants you to come back and join the family.  His plan of salvation is very clever.

I’ve never heard an active member claim this.