Where in the Bible did Joseph learn this?

[Bernard Gui]

Quote

 

Helaman 8: 17 Yea, and behold, Abraham saw of his coming, and was filled with gladness and did rejoice.

18 Yea, and behold I say unto you, that Abraham not only knew of these things, but there were many before the days of Abraham who were called by the order of God; yea, even after the order of his Son; and this that it should be shown unto the people, a great many thousand years before his coming, that even redemption should come unto them.

 

Three questions come to mind….

Where in the Bible did Abraham see the coming of the Lord and rejoice?

Where in the Bible does it refer to men called by the order of God, after the order of his Son?

If not from the Bible, how did Joseph obtain these notions?

[the narrator]

31 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Where in the Bible did Abraham see the coming of the Lord and rejoice?

 

John 8:56

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, the narrator said:

John 8:56

You apparently know your Bible, I'm thinking.

[the narrator]

Adam Clarke's commentary for John 8:56 adds this:

Quote

"And he saw it" - Not only in the first promise, Gen. iii. 15, for the other patriarchs saw this as well as he

And, interestingly, his commentary for 1 Chron. 16:22 has:

Quote

"Touch not mine anointed" - By this title the patriarchs are generally understood: they had a regal and sacerdotal power in the order of God. In the behalf of the patriarchs God had often especially interfered: in behalf of Abraham, Gen. xii. 17; xx. 3; and of Jacob, Gen. xxxi. 24; xxxiv. 26; xxxv. 5.

Colby Townsend has a forthcoming article, where IMO he makes a strong case that Clarke's commentary was being consulted for some of the Isaiah chapters, and I think that his commentary for Lev. 18:21 may be the source for Brant Gardner's insight that BofM names with m-l-k roots are dealing with kings.

[aw.smoot]

Hey Bernard! I'd suggest that this is not found in the biblical narrative that we have today. But our understanding of the composition of the Bible today suggests a far more interesting story. Rather than the Biblical cannon being a text that was passed down from author to author for thousands of years, the Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament) first began its composition near the end of the 7th century BCE in Jerusalem (or the Kingdom of Judah). And the evidence suggests that the book came together from 3 or 4 primary sources: Jahwist/Elohist (JE), Deuteronomist (D), and the Priestly (P) source. For several decades, J & E were separated and at least half of these were seen to have come from a Northern Kingdom source, but today most scholars suggest that all three JE, D, P were all Judahite sources or persons belonging to the Kingdom of Judah and therefore all parts demonstrating a favorable Judahite spin. We see this in a lot of the passages that villainize Israelite kings of the Northern Kingdom and attempts to make Judah appear to be the most favored tribe/son of Israel. While these texts were composed in the 7th century in Judah, there is evidence suggesting that sparse portions do originate from the Northern Kingdom and are in fact the oldest portions of the biblical cannon such as the Song of Deborah in Judges 5. I'll post a list below of these oldest passages, but what is interesting is that we  can see that originally the Norther Kingdom of Israel that existed between 1000 BCE and 722 BCE held a notion of the "divine council" which was presided over by God the Father (Elyon) and "the sons of God", with the most beloved of these being YHWH (which Latter-day Saints interpret as being pre-mortal Jesus Christ). And that Elyon appointed YHWH to preside over Israel, but eventually became the appointed ruler over all the earth under the direction of the Father. So according to our best scholarship, there did exist a Father/Son relationship, along with a notion of a broader divine council. However, after the fall of the Northern Kingdom, Israelites fled to the Southern Kingdom and merged with Judah and here is where we see Elyon and YHWH conflated as a single deity and Israelites (primarily Judah) restructure their beliefs into a type of Judean Monotheism. Where they believe there are other Gods in the world, but their God, YHWH is the only God that they worship and the only God that matters because their God is more powerful than all other Gods. The Book of Mormon, produced in 1830's amidst Protestant Christianity then radically reasserts that the Father and Son are two separate and distinct beings and that originally, this was known to ancient Israel. While scholars today see figures like Abraham as Legendary, the data suggests that a Father/Son narrative was prominent in ancient Israel, although nothing has yet come to light that seems to suggest that they conceived of a time that the Son would come down amongst us in the world and atone for our sins and redeem us from the Fall. 

1. The Song of the Sea (Exodus 15:1–18): This is a poetic hymn celebrating the Israelites' escape from Egypt and the crossing of the Red Sea. It is considered one of the most ancient texts, possibly dating to the 12th–10th century BCE.

2. The Song of Deborah (Judges 5): This passage describes a victory over the Canaanites and is another early poem, likely dating to the 12th–11th century BCE.

3. Blessing of Jacob (Genesis 49): This poetic text contains blessings for the tribes of Israel, and many scholars believe it originated during the early tribal confederation period.

4. Blessing of Moses (Deuteronomy 33): Like the Blessing of Jacob, this passage is a poetic collection of blessings for the tribes of Israel, thought to be an early text.

5. Covenant Code (Exodus 20:22–23:19): This legal collection is considered one of the oldest parts of the Torah, reflecting ancient Israelite customs and laws.

6. Priestly Blessing (Numbers 6:24–26): The blessing "The Lord bless you and keep you…" is considered an early priestly text and has been found inscribed on amulets from the 7th century BCE.

[Bernard Gui]

Where did Jacob say?

Alma 46: 24 Yea, let us preserve our liberty as a remnant of Joseph; yea, let us remember the words of Jacob, before his death, for behold, he saw that a part of the remnant of the coat of Joseph was preserved and had not decayed. And he said—Even as this remnant of garment of my son hath been preserved, so shall a remnant of the seed of my son be preserved by the hand of God, and be taken unto himself, while the remainder of the seed of Joseph shall perish, even as the remnant of his garment.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, the narrator said:

John 8:56

Thank you. Yes, that is a source, but I am asking where this is found in the actual story of Abraham in the Old Testament.

Quote

Adam Clarke's commentary for John 8:56 adds this:

And, interestingly, his commentary for 1 Chron. 16:22 has: 

"Touch not mine anointed" - By this title the patriarchs are generally understood: they had a regal and sacerdotal power in the order of God. In the behalf of the patriarchs God had often especially interfered: in behalf of Abraham, Gen. xii. 17; xx. 3; and of Jacob, Gen. xxxi. 24; xxxiv. 26; xxxv. 5.

Clarke's comment pales in the light of Alma 13. Did Joseph crib this from Adam Clarke? Could he have extrapolated all that from Clarke's comment?

I don't see a mention of "after the order of his Son"...except in Alma 13, which I consider the source for Helaman 8. Clarke's comment pales in the light of Alma 13.

Quote

1. I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord God gave these commandments unto his children; and I would that ye should remember that the Lord God ordained priests, after his holy order, which was after the order of his Son, to teach these things unto the people. 2 And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption...9 Thus they become high priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years, who is full of grace, equity, and truth. 

This suggests to me that the BoM writers had sources which we do not have today.

 

Quote

Colby Townsend has a forthcoming article, where IMO he makes a strong case that Clarke's commentary was being consulted for some of the Isaiah chapters, and I think that his commentary for Lev. 18:21 may be the source for Brant Gardner's insight that BofM names with m-l-k roots are dealing with kings.

When, where, and how did Joseph consult Clarke's commentary? How about a sneak preview? 

Edited September 12, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[the narrator]

12 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thank you. Of course that is a source, but it is not found in the actual story of Abraham in the Old Testament.

 

Well in that case, there is clearly no source in the Hebrew Bible, since none of them were expecting Jesus Christ (or at least none of them wrote anything that still exists indicating that they were).

[Bernard Gui]

18 minutes ago, the narrator said:

Well in that case, there is clearly no source in the Hebrew Bible, since none of them were expecting Jesus Christ (or at least none of them wrote anything that still exists indicating that they were).

Yes, that is what I am asking. 

It is found in The Pearl of Great Price Book of Abraham and the Apocalypse of Abraham...the former may have been in the Brass Plates and the latter not. 

No one expected the Spanish Inquisition, either.  Sorry, couldn't resist. 🙂

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, aw.smoot said:

Hey Bernard! I'd suggest that this is not found in the biblical narrative that we have today. But our understanding of the composition of the Bible today suggests a far more interesting story. Rather than the Biblical cannon being a text that was passed down from author to author for thousands of years, the Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament) first began its composition near the end of the 7th century BCE in Jerusalem (or the Kingdom of Judah). And the evidence suggests that the book came together from 3 or 4 primary sources: Jahwist/Elohist (JE), Deuteronomist (D), and the Priestly (P) source. For several decades, J & E were separated and at least half of these were seen to have come from a Northern Kingdom source, but today most scholars suggest that all three JE, D, P were all Judahite sources or persons belonging to the Kingdom of Judah and therefore all parts demonstrating a favorable Judahite spin. We see this in a lot of the passages that villainize Israelite kings of the Northern Kingdom and attempts to make Judah appear to be the most favored tribe/son of Israel. While these texts were composed in the 7th century in Judah, there is evidence suggesting that sparse portions do originate from the Northern Kingdom and are in fact the oldest portions of the biblical cannon such as the Song of Deborah in Judges 5. I'll post a list below of these oldest passages, but what is interesting is that we  can see that originally the Norther Kingdom of Israel that existed between 1000 BCE and 722 BCE held a notion of the "divine council" which was presided over by God the Father (Elyon) and "the sons of God", with the most beloved of these being YHWH (which Latter-day Saints interpret as being pre-mortal Jesus Christ). And that Elyon appointed YHWH to preside over Israel, but eventually became the appointed ruler over all the earth under the direction of the Father. So according to our best scholarship, there did exist a Father/Son relationship, along with a notion of a broader divine council. However, after the fall of the Northern Kingdom, Israelites fled to the Southern Kingdom and merged with Judah and here is where we see Elyon and YHWH conflated as a single deity and Israelites (primarily Judah) restructure their beliefs into a type of Judean Monotheism. Where they believe there are other Gods in the world, but their God, YHWH is the only God that they worship and the only God that matters because their God is more powerful than all other Gods. The Book of Mormon, produced in 1830's amidst Protestant Christianity then radically reasserts that the Father and Son are two separate and distinct beings and that originally, this was known to ancient Israel. While scholars today see figures like Abraham as Legendary, the data suggests that a Father/Son narrative was prominent in ancient Israel, although nothing has yet come to light that seems to suggest that they conceived of a time that the Son would come down amongst us in the world and atone for our sins and redeem us from the Fall. 

1. The Song of the Sea (Exodus 15:1–18): This is a poetic hymn celebrating the Israelites' escape from Egypt and the crossing of the Red Sea. It is considered one of the most ancient texts, possibly dating to the 12th–10th century BCE.

2. The Song of Deborah (Judges 5): This passage describes a victory over the Canaanites and is another early poem, likely dating to the 12th–11th century BCE.

3. Blessing of Jacob (Genesis 49): This poetic text contains blessings for the tribes of Israel, and many scholars believe it originated during the early tribal confederation period.

4. Blessing of Moses (Deuteronomy 33): Like the Blessing of Jacob, this passage is a poetic collection of blessings for the tribes of Israel, thought to be an early text.

5. Covenant Code (Exodus 20:22–23:19): This legal collection is considered one of the oldest parts of the Torah, reflecting ancient Israelite customs and laws.

6. Priestly Blessing (Numbers 6:24–26): The blessing "The Lord bless you and keep you…" is considered an early priestly text and has been found inscribed on amulets from the 7th century BCE.

Thank you. Would you please explain how this relates to Helaman 8:17 and Alma 46:24?

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

You apparently know your Bible, I'm thinking.

And....?

[Bernard Gui]

Furthermore, Jacob, brother of Nephi, wrote: 

Quote

4: 4 For, for this intent have we written these things, that they may know that we knew of Christ, and we had a hope of his glory many hundred years before his coming; and not only we ourselves had a hope of his glory, but also all the holy prophets which were before us. 5 Behold, they believed in Christ and worshipped the Father in his name, and also we worship the Father in his name. 

7: 11 Behold, I say unto you that none of the prophets have written, nor prophesied save they have spoken concerning this Christ.

8:21...behold, the prophet Zenos did testify boldly; for the which he was slain, 20 And behold, also Zenock, and also Ezias, and also Isaiah, and Jeremiah...

This is certainly extra-biblical. How did Joseph Smith come by this assertion?

Edited September 13, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[rpn]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

This suggests to me that the BoM writers had sources which we do not have today.

We know that Mormon culled the Book of Mormon from 1000's of years of records, after the vision.   So it is easy to believe that.

[aw.smoot]

 

43 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

This is certainly extra-biblical. How did Joseph Smith come by this assertion?

So I agree that there are a number of details in the Book of Mormon that are not found in the biblical narrative that still remains unaccounted for by the dominant critical narrative. A few that come to mind is the entire premise of the narrative: Lehi & his family being of the tribe of Manasseh but are living in Jerusalem ~600 BCE. The biblical narrative explicitly states that the Northern Kingdom was carried off in the Assyrian conquest. And even more striking is that Lehi has "lived in Jerusalem all of his days" and Nephi explicitly refers to Jerusalem as "their land of inheritance" rather than the northern lands of Manasseh. Yet, the historical record affirms that contrary to the biblical narrative, thousands of refugees during the Assyrian conquest migrated to Jerusalem and abandoned the Northern Kingdom and adopted a Judahite identity. Additionally, Nephi's vision explicitly refers to the Bible as "the writing of the Jews" or "of Judah", when the majority of the authors in the Hebrew Bible are traditionally attributed to non-Judahite authors. Today, the consensus of scholars affirm that the JE, D, & P sources were almost certainly Judahite scribes, and the Bible is almost entirely composed by Jewish authors. The allegory in Jacob 5 suggest that whole branches from a wild olive tree was grafted into Israel after the Assyrian Conquest but before Lehi's departure from Jerusalem and again the historical record affirms this very details, yet this detail is glaringly absent from the biblical narrative, and for good reason. Then, of course, it's a bit odd that Lehi knows he's of the tribe of Manasseh, but seems not to have known for certain if he was an *actual* descendant of the legendary patriarchal figure in Israelite history, Joseph. Again, the historical record clarifies this. These are all startling details in the Book of Mormon that have been mocked and ridiculed for nearly two centuries and are well beyond Joseph's grasp in the 19th century, but are affirmed today in critical Biblical scholarship. That's not to ignore the very modern elements found in the Book of Mormon as well, but there are indeed very ancient elements present in the text that Joseph has not business knowing. It's fascinating. 

[the narrator]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yes, that is what I am asking. 

It is found in The Pearl of Great Price Book of Abraham and the Apocalypse of Abraham...the former may have been in the Brass Plates and the latter not. 

That was not what you were asking though. You asked:

Quote

If not from the Bible, how did Joseph obtain these notions?

Did you mean to ask how Helaman did? Because if you were asking about Joseph, then commentaries and sermons of his day seem to be the obvious answer.

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, the narrator said:

That was not what you were asking though. You asked:

Yes, I was asking that. The adversarial dialogue between Jesus and the Jews in John 8 confirms that they knew very little about Abraham, and Jesus did not feel the need to say much much more to them than a few cryptic rejoinders that just served to infuriate them. 

7 hours ago, the narrator said:

Did you mean to ask how Helaman did? Because if you were asking about Joseph, then commentaries and sermons of his day seem to be the obvious answer.

Helaman or Joseph, either one is fine. I come from the position that Helaman wrote it and Joseph translated it. 

Jacob made it clear right from the start that Nephite prophets gained their religious knowledge either from the Brass Plates or fronm personal revelation. Since we agree that the OT is not the source of Nephite statements about Abraham, Jacob, Melchizedek, and Jesus Christ, we are left with just two possibilities: 1) They were quoting sources in the Brass Plates, or 2) Joseph made it all up either from his imagination, plagiarism, or both. Maybe you suggest more?

1) is the answer I prefer;  moreover, I believe that the Brass Plates contained information that we now have by revelation in the Book of Abraham. 

2) is not a satisfactory explanation IMO because the BoM was written in the presence of several other people whose descriptions of the process do not fit this scenario. I think it is a real stretch to suggest Joseph extracted such obscure details from a Bible commentary or random sermons he may or may not have heard and then plugged them in when he needed them. 

Edited September 13, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, aw.smoot said:

 

So I agree that there are a number of details in the Book of Mormon that are not found in the biblical narrative that still remains unaccounted for by the dominant critical narrative. A few that come to mind is the entire premise of the narrative: Lehi & his family being of the tribe of Manasseh but are living in Jerusalem ~600 BCE. The biblical narrative explicitly states that the Northern Kingdom was carried off in the Assyrian conquest. And even more striking is that Lehi has "lived in Jerusalem all of his days" and Nephi explicitly refers to Jerusalem as "their land of inheritance" rather than the northern lands of Manasseh. Yet, the historical record affirms that contrary to the biblical narrative, thousands of refugees during the Assyrian conquest migrated to Jerusalem and abandoned the Northern Kingdom and adopted a Judahite identity. Additionally, Nephi's vision explicitly refers to the Bible as "the writing of the Jews" or "of Judah", when the majority of the authors in the Hebrew Bible are traditionally attributed to non-Judahite authors. Today, the consensus of scholars affirm that the JE, D, & P sources were almost certainly Judahite scribes, and the Bible is almost entirely composed by Jewish authors. The allegory in Jacob 5 suggest that whole branches from a wild olive tree was grafted into Israel after the Assyrian Conquest but before Lehi's departure from Jerusalem and again the historical record affirms this very details, yet this detail is glaringly absent from the biblical narrative, and for good reason. Then, of course, it's a bit odd that Lehi knows he's of the tribe of Manasseh, but seems not to have known for certain if he was an *actual* descendant of the legendary patriarchal figure in Israelite history, Joseph. Again, the historical record clarifies this. These are all startling details in the Book of Mormon that have been mocked and ridiculed for nearly two centuries and are well beyond Joseph's grasp in the 19th century, but are affirmed today in critical Biblical scholarship. That's not to ignore the very modern elements found in the Book of Mormon as well, but there are indeed very ancient elements present in the text that Joseph has not business knowing. It's fascinating. 

Thank you for this interesting post. Yes, I agree that there are innumerable fascinating things in the BoM. I wonder how Lehi’s genealogy came to be in the Brass Plates, and why did Laban’s ancestors keep the records. It’s interesting that the thread is kept alive and greatly amplified when Lehi’s gave his blessing to his son Joseph. (2 Nephi 3).  Joseph is far more significant in the future of the world than the Old Testament reveals.  

[Bernard Gui]

Joseph of Egypt is extraordinarily important in the BoM, but not so much in the OT. Where did Joseph Smith get the astounding information about this Joseph -  quotes of his own words; God’s covenants with him and his posterity; his prophecies about Moses, Mormon and Joseph Smith; his future ties with the Lehites; his prophecies about Mormon’s writings and their importance to the salvation of the Lehites?

Some might say that Joseph Smith made it all up to aggrandize himself, but to manufacture a complex and lengthy chapter just to do that?

[aw.smoot]

I tend to spend a great deal of time studying critical biblical scholarship. This, of course, challenges a lot of assumptions we make about the authority of the Bible and the reliability of the narratives it contains, but I'm interested in the truth -- no matter where it comes from. An interesting detail in the scholarly consensus today in secular studies is that the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the Southern Kingdom of Judah were separate and distinct groups up until 722 BCE after the Assyrian conquest. At this time, thousands of Israelites from the north appear to have fled to the southern kingdom to seek refuge, which would explain why Lehi's family is residing there ~600BCE. It is also around this time that the Hebrew Bible is beginning its composition and which will be largely composed and edited during the Babylonian Exile (post Lehi's departure). With that said, scholars believe that the Biblical narrative contains myths, legends, and actual history belonging to both kingdoms that are then parsed and stitched together in order to create one cohesive narrative and history that combines Israel and Judah together as one people. Perhaps the most fascinating detail of this is that these prominent figures in history such as Moses, Joseph, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob seem to also be stitched together. With most scholars suggesting the the Patriarch's narrative comes from Judah and two prominent figures of the Northern Kingdom are the accounts of Moses and Joseph. To me at least, it's fascinating that Lehi and his family draw so heavily on these two figures (Moses and Joseph) time and again as as major figures in their discourse. This aligns with the type of rhetoric you would expect from Northern Kingdom refugees residing in Jerusalem and that's exactly what we find in Nephi's record. For example, when Nephi and his brothers are about to go up to Jerusalem, Nephi says, "let us go up; let us be strong like unto Moses;" and frequently likens his inflictions in the desert with his brothers to the story of Joseph in the desert of Egypt. Describing his the sorrow of his parents as "their grey hairs were about to be brought down to lie in the dust; yea, even they were near to be cast with sorrow into a watery grave." (1N18:18). A clear allusion to Gen 44, when Joesph's brothers describe that the news of losing his son "shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave." (Gen. 44:31). Nephi's entire rhetorical structure is based on the accounts of Moses and Joseph, two distant northern kingdom figures of his heritage. Tremendously insightful details for a mere 23-YO farm boy.

 

[aw.smoot]

15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Joseph of Egypt is extraordinarily important in the BoM, but not so much in the OT.

I tend to spend a great deal of time studying critical biblical scholarship. This, of course, challenges a lot of assumptions we make about the authority of the Bible and the reliability of the narratives it contains, but I'm interested in the truth -- no matter where it comes from. An interesting detail in the scholarly consensus today in secular studies is that the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the Southern Kingdom of Judah were separate and distinct groups up until 722 BCE after the Assyrian conquest. At this time, thousands of Israelites from the north appear to have fled to the southern kingdom to seek refuge, which would explain why Lehi's family is residing there ~600BCE. It is also around this time that the Hebrew Bible is beginning its composition and which will be largely composed and edited during the Babylonian Exile (post Lehi's departure). With that said, scholars believe that the Biblical narrative contains myths, legends, and actual history belonging to both kingdoms that are then parsed and stitched together in order to create one cohesive narrative and history that combines Israel and Judah together as one people. Perhaps the most fascinating detail of this is that these prominent figures in history such as Moses, Joseph, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob seem to also be stitched together. With most scholars suggesting the the Patriarch's narrative comes from Judah and two prominent figures of the Northern Kingdom are the accounts of Moses and Joseph. To me at least, it's fascinating that Lehi and his family draw so heavily on these two figures (Moses and Joseph) time and again as as major figures in their discourse. This aligns with the type of rhetoric you would expect from Northern Kingdom refugees residing in Jerusalem and that's exactly what we find in Nephi's record. For example, when Nephi and his brothers are about to go up to Jerusalem, Nephi says, "let us go up; let us be strong like unto Moses;" and frequently likens his inflictions in the desert with his brothers to the story of Joseph in the desert of Egypt. Describing his the sorrow of his parents as "their grey hairs were about to be brought down to lie in the dust; yea, even they were near to be cast with sorrow into a watery grave." (1N18:18). A clear allusion to Gen 44, when Joesph's brothers describe that the news of losing his son "shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave." (Gen. 44:31). Nephi's entire rhetorical structure is based on the accounts of Moses and Joseph, two distant northern kingdom figures of his heritage. Tremendously insightful details for a mere 23-YO farm boy.

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, aw.smoot said:

I tend to spend a great deal of time studying critical biblical scholarship. This, of course, challenges a lot of assumptions we make about the authority of the Bible and the reliability of the narratives it contains, but I'm interested in the truth -- no matter where it comes from. An interesting detail in the scholarly consensus today in secular studies is that the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the Southern Kingdom of Judah were separate and distinct groups up until 722 BCE after the Assyrian conquest. At this time, thousands of Israelites from the north appear to have fled to the southern kingdom to seek refuge, which would explain why Lehi's family is residing there ~600BCE. It is also around this time that the Hebrew Bible is beginning its composition and which will be largely composed and edited during the Babylonian Exile (post Lehi's departure). With that said, scholars believe that the Biblical narrative contains myths, legends, and actual history belonging to both kingdoms that are then parsed and stitched together in order to create one cohesive narrative and history that combines Israel and Judah together as one people. Perhaps the most fascinating detail of this is that these prominent figures in history such as Moses, Joseph, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob seem to also be stitched together. With most scholars suggesting the the Patriarch's narrative comes from Judah and two prominent figures of the Northern Kingdom are the accounts of Moses and Joseph. To me at least, it's fascinating that Lehi and his family draw so heavily on these two figures (Moses and Joseph) time and again as as major figures in their discourse. This aligns with the type of rhetoric you would expect from Northern Kingdom refugees residing in Jerusalem and that's exactly what we find in Nephi's record. For example, when Nephi and his brothers are about to go up to Jerusalem, Nephi says, "let us go up; let us be strong like unto Moses;" and frequently likens his inflictions in the desert with his brothers to the story of Joseph in the desert of Egypt. Describing his the sorrow of his parents as "their grey hairs were about to be brought down to lie in the dust; yea, even they were near to be cast with sorrow into a watery grave." (1N18:18). A clear allusion to Gen 44, when Joesph's brothers describe that the news of losing his son "shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave." (Gen. 44:31). Nephi's entire rhetorical structure is based on the accounts of Moses and Joseph, two distant northern kingdom figures of his heritage. Tremendously insightful details for a mere 23-YO farm boy.

 

Could you break up your writing please?  Even if not necessary because of new ideas.

I have a very hard time concentrating on anything bigger than 10 lines, five lines or less is ideal for me, especially if using a more advanced or technical vocabulary.  My eyes start jumping around as if there is nothing to anchor on whenever I see a big block of text and I struggle to get through it and often fail even when very interested.  Sometimes blocking out what’s been read helped, more times it doesn’t.  There are others who have similar issues with blocks of text, it would be a shame if we weren’t able to enjoy your posts when it can be remedied by hitting return or speaking “next line” if dictating.

Edited September 13, 2024 by Calm

[GoCeltics]

On 9/13/2024 at 1:05 AM, Bernard Gui said:

It’s interesting that the thread is kept alive and greatly amplified when Lehi’s gave his blessing to his son Joseph. (2 Nephi 3).  Joseph is far more significant in the future of the world than the Old Testament reveals.

Lehi's son is in the lineage of Manasseh.  As the more significant lineage for the future of the world, it would be Judah.  

[the narrator]

On 9/12/2024 at 10:35 PM, Bernard Gui said:

I think it is a real stretch to suggest Joseph extracted such obscure details from a Bible commentary or random sermons he may or may not have heard and then plugged them in when he needed them. 

He did this with scripture in his personal letters and writings. Why not elsewhere?

[aw.smoot]

On 9/13/2024 at 3:16 PM, Calm said:

Could you break up your writing please?

Sorry about that. Here:

I tend to spend a great deal of time studying critical biblical scholarship. This, of course, challenges a lot of assumptions we make about the authority of the Bible and the reliability of the narratives it contains, but I'm interested in the truth -- no matter where it comes from.

An interesting detail in the scholarly consensus today in secular studies is that the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the Southern Kingdom of Judah were separate and distinct groups up until 722 BCE after the Assyrian conquest. At this time, thousands of Israelites from the north appear to have fled to the southern kingdom to seek refuge, which would explain why Lehi's family is residing there ~600BCE. It is also around this time that the Hebrew Bible is beginning its composition and which will be largely composed and edited during the Babylonian Exile (post Lehi's departure).

With that said, scholars believe that the Biblical narrative contains myths, legends, and actual history belonging to both kingdoms that are then parsed and stitched together in order to create one cohesive narrative and history that combines Israel and Judah together as one people. Perhaps the most fascinating detail of this is that these prominent figures in history such as Moses, Joseph, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob seem to also be stitched together. With most scholars suggesting the the Patriarch's narrative comes from Judah and two prominent figures of the Northern Kingdom are the accounts of Moses and Joseph. To me at least, it's fascinating that Lehi and his family draw so heavily on these two figures (Moses and Joseph) time and again as as major figures in their discourse.

This aligns with the type of rhetoric you would expect from Northern Kingdom refugees residing in Jerusalem and that's exactly what we find in Nephi's record. For example, when Nephi and his brothers are about to go up to Jerusalem, Nephi says, "let us go up; let us be strong like unto Moses;" and frequently likens his inflictions in the desert with his brothers to the story of Joseph in the desert of Egypt. Describing his the sorrow of his parents as "their grey hairs were about to be brought down to lie in the dust; yea, even they were near to be cast with sorrow into a watery grave." (1N18:18). A clear allusion to Gen 44, when Joesph's brothers describe that the news of losing his son "shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave." (Gen. 44:31). Nephi's entire rhetorical structure is based on the accounts of Moses and Joseph, two distant northern kingdom figures of his heritage.

Tremendously insightful details for a mere 23-YO farm boy.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, aw.smoot said:

Sorry about that. Here:

I tend to spend a great deal of time studying critical biblical scholarship. This, of course, challenges a lot of assumptions we make about the authority of the Bible and the reliability of the narratives it contains, but I'm interested in the truth -- no matter where it comes from.

An interesting detail in the scholarly consensus today in secular studies is that the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the Southern Kingdom of Judah were separate and distinct groups up until 722 BCE after the Assyrian conquest. At this time, thousands of Israelites from the north appear to have fled to the southern kingdom to seek refuge, which would explain why Lehi's family is residing there ~600BCE. It is also around this time that the Hebrew Bible is beginning its composition and which will be largely composed and edited during the Babylonian Exile (post Lehi's departure).

With that said, scholars believe that the Biblical narrative contains myths, legends, and actual history belonging to both kingdoms that are then parsed and stitched together in order to create one cohesive narrative and history that combines Israel and Judah together as one people. Perhaps the most fascinating detail of this is that these prominent figures in history such as Moses, Joseph, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob seem to also be stitched together. With most scholars suggesting the the Patriarch's narrative comes from Judah and two prominent figures of the Northern Kingdom are the accounts of Moses and Joseph. To me at least, it's fascinating that Lehi and his family draw so heavily on these two figures (Moses and Joseph) time and again as as major figures in their discourse.

This aligns with the type of rhetoric you would expect from Northern Kingdom refugees residing in Jerusalem and that's exactly what we find in Nephi's record. For example, when Nephi and his brothers are about to go up to Jerusalem, Nephi says, "let us go up; let us be strong like unto Moses;" and frequently likens his inflictions in the desert with his brothers to the story of Joseph in the desert of Egypt. Describing his the sorrow of his parents as "their grey hairs were about to be brought down to lie in the dust; yea, even they were near to be cast with sorrow into a watery grave." (1N18:18). A clear allusion to Gen 44, when Joesph's brothers describe that the news of losing his son "shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave." (Gen. 44:31). Nephi's entire rhetorical structure is based on the accounts of Moses and Joseph, two distant northern kingdom figures of his heritage.

Tremendously insightful details for a mere 23-YO farm boy.

Thank you, much easier to read and quite interesting.