The Masonic Egyptian Temple Endowments

[PacMan]

The general consensus regarding masonry is that it developed in the 1400s.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/masonry?lang=eng
 

The general consensus also is that Masonry didn’t come from the Egyptian endowment. 

This makes JS’s claim that masonry was of ancient origin—a corrupted endowment with divine origins—problematic.

I think the critical response is playing too far into a lack of earlier documents.  But my point is different.  While I think it is beyond dispute that JS and his associates knew that the Rosetta Stone and been cracked and understood the rudiments of Egyptian, I’ve found no evidence that JS was (or could have been) aware of the Egyptian Temple endowment.

The interesting thing is that the Egyptian Endowment has significant parallels with the LDS endowment and Masonic ceremonies.  I think Masonry is more similar to LDS endowment in form while Egyptian is more similar to the LDS endowment in substance:

https://www.scribd.com/document/47210789/An-Egyptian-Endowment-A-Summary-of-Nibley-s-Book-on-the-Joseph-Smith-Papyri

My question is, what’s the critics’ response to the similarities with the LDS and Egyptian endowments? I have never heard a remotely adequate response to the parallels.

 

Edited August 2 by PacMan

[Pyreaux]

Initiatory rituals and resurrection dramas are so widely universal, anyone who studied royal rituals of other near-easters religions, then reads the Bible, then looks at LDS rituals, would never dismiss them. The ancient Egyptian rites were already similar to the Israelite Royal Cult's rites, the Royal Cult influenced Jesus (raised on wisdom from Egypt, sought to restore the Davidic royal temple  priesthood via ritual), then influences the Christians, then Egyptian Gnostic Christians, the Gnostics influenced members of the Royal Society, members of the Royal Society join the Masonry guilds creating Freemasonry, Freemasonry influences Joseph Smith who translates it back to the original Solomonic Temple context, and it matches a lot of the ancient Jewish Temple folklore extremely well. Prophet or not, Temple rites gleaned from freemasonry or not, Joseph Smith was certainly on to something very profound.

Edited August 4 by Pyreaux

[Dario_M]

But do Egyptians not believe in more then one God or so?

While we in the LDS believe only in the one real God. How are the endowments so similar? We do not perform endowments in the pyramids you know @PacMan

Edited August 4 by Dario_M

[ZealouslyStriving]

9 hours ago, Dario_M said:

But do Egyptians not believe in more then one God or so?

While we in the LDS believe only in the one real God. How are the endowments so similar? We do not perform endowments in the pyramids you know @PacMan

Dario-

It is important to remember that all religions descend from the one true religion that Noah and his sons brought with them through the flood- so there are elements of truth, however scarce, in all of them.

The purpose of the ongoing Restoration of the Eternal Gospel is to gather back those truths into one as fast as we are willing and able to overcome our traditions and accept those truths. But with our stubbornness- it is taking a while.

Edited August 4 by ZealouslyStriving

[Pyreaux]

16 hours ago, Dario_M said:

But do Egyptians not believe in more then one God or so?

While we in the LDS believe only in the one real God. How are the endowments so similar? We do not perform endowments in the pyramids you know @PacMan

There is One Real God, the Father, called El, he adopted seventy angels as his sons, the council of the sons of El. When Babel (and its great tower) fell, the scattered humans were divided into seventy nations, these seventy sons of El were made "lords" over these seventy nations, sometimes they are called "gods" by the people they are over. All these others come from a common Father, Yahweh "the Lord" (Jesus) became the Lord God over Israel, was the Son of El. Ba'al (Lord/Taskmaster) was lord god of Phoenicia and the son of El. Chemosh (Subduer) was the lord god of Moab and the son of El, Molech (King) was the lord god of Ammon and was the son of El, Bel (Lord) Marduk was the lord god of Babylon and the son of Ea. Ra was the lord god of Egypt and was the son of Khnum.

However, we don't "believe in", or have faith in, other gods.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, as there be gods many, and lords many, but to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Endowments of the kings in other nations as priests is so similar, obviously because they have a common origin, but people don't want to admit it, as it gives other religions some validity. The kings assume the identify of their ancient ancestor (like Adam) in a death and resurrection drama, followed by the "endowment" of the king in clothing like his god's (like a robe) in the temple. Pyramids are temples, they represent the first land to emerge from the primeval sea. Eden was that first land, Eden was at the summit of the mountain of God. The Temple of Jerusalem also represents Eden on a mountain, so mountains were carved on the back side.

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Since Dario is not a longtime member and living in an area where there isn’t a mass of Saints, you should mention this is one interpretation and not church doctrine and my guess is most LDS won’t agree with it.

* And the views of this poster are not necessarily the views of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or its members. Spiritual discretion advised.

Edited August 4 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

52 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

There is One Real God, the Father, called El, he adopted seventy angels as his sons, the council of the sons of El. When Babel (and its great tower) fell, the scattered humans were divided into seventy nations, these seventy sons of El were made "lords" over these seventy nations, sometimes they are called "gods" by the people they are over. All these others come from a common Father, Yahweh "the Lord" (Jesus) became the Lord God over Israel, was the Son of El. Ba'al (Lord/Taskmaster) was lord god of Phoenicia and the son of El. Chemosh (Subduer) was the lord god of Moab and the son of El, Molech (King) was the lord god of Ammon and was the son of El, Bel (Lord) Marduk was the lord god of Babylon and the son of Ea. Ra was the lord god of Egypt and was the son of Khnum.

However, we don't "believe in", or have faith in, other gods.

Since Dario is not a longtime member and living in an area where there isn’t a mass of Saints, you should mention this is one interpretation and not church doctrine and my guess is most LDS won’t agree with it.

Edited August 4 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, Dario_M said:

But do Egyptians not believe in more then one God or so?

While we in the LDS believe only in the one real God. How are the endowments so similar? We do not perform endowments in the pyramids you know @PacMan

Good to see you back again!   Hope all is OK and you are safe!

Well we are all trying to be like Jesus, right?

So the question becomes how far we can become "like" him in this life.  If we lived long enough, who knows?

We do believe that we can progress even after death- that's why we do genealogy for those who never heard of Jesus so that they can progress from where they are.

How far into the future can we keep on more like Father?   I imagine it depends on our individual efforts and desires.  The scriptures DO say that we will be able to "sit with him in his throne", though, but what does that mean?

Part of all this is receiving our endowments- I am not sure if you have done that yet, but we learn a lot symbolically if we concentrate on the endowment.

You should talk to your bishop or branch president about all this, if you are still in touch with them.

I do not believe that there is a "wall" preventing me from continuous growth into the future- in a million years of spiritual progression after death I am sure one can become a lot like Father.   We usually do not think that way- but I believe it is possible!!

And there are scriptures about Jacob and Abraham and others who's earth life was thousands of years ago who have progressed very far- so who knows? 

 😀!

But there is another thing about us- Father NOW is still progressing with his children- "how long" (in a world beyond time!) has He been at it?

We can never ever possibly "catch up" to him- so Father will always be OUR FATHER- he is the only one we have the privilege to worship!!

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

There is One Real God, the Father, called El, he adopted seventy angels as his sons, the council of the sons of El. When Babel (and its great tower) fell, the scattered humans were divided into seventy nations, these seventy sons of El were made "lords" over these seventy nations, sometimes they are called "gods" by the people they are over. All these others come from a common Father, Yahweh "the Lord" (Jesus) became the Lord God over Israel, was the Son of El. Ba'al (Lord/Taskmaster) was lord god of Phoenicia and the son of El. Chemosh (Subduer) was the lord god of Moab and the son of El, Molech (King) was the lord god of Ammon and was the son of El, Bel (Lord) Marduk was the lord god of Babylon and the son of Ea. Ra was the lord god of Egypt and was the son of Khnum.

How complicated

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

However, we don't "believe in", or have faith in, other gods.

Indeed right... i believe in one God only.

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, as there be gods many, and lords many, but to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Endowments of the kings in other nations as priests is so similar, obviously because they have a common origin, but people don't want to admit it, as it gives other religions some validity. The kings assume the identify of their ancient ancestor (like Adam) in a death and resurrection drama, followed by the "endowment" of the king in clothing like his god's (like a robe) in the temple. Pyramids are temples, they represent the first land to emerge from the primeval sea. Eden was that first land, Eden was at the summit of the mountain of God. The Temple of Jerusalem also represents Eden on a mountain, so mountains were carved on the back side.

Okay wel thank you for this knowledge. It's a lot though. I meight need to read it again. But thank you a lot anyway. God bless you. 🙏🫂

[Dario_M]

38 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Good to see you back again!   Hope all is OK and you are safe!

I'm save in the Netherlands on the moment thank you.

38 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Well we are all trying to be like Jesus, right?

Yeah.

38 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

So the question becomes how far we can become "like" him in this life.  If we lived long enough, who knows?

We do believe that we can progress even after death- that's why we do genealogy for those who never heard of Jesus so that they can progress from where they are.

How far into the future can we keep on more like Father?   I imagine it depends on our individual efforts and desires.  The scriptures DO say that we will be able to "sit with him in his throne", though, but what does that mean?

Part of all this is receiving our endowments- I am not sure if you have done that yet, but we learn a lot symbolically if we concentrate on the endowment.

I haven't done the endowment yet no.

38 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You should talk to your bishop or branch president about all this, if you are still in touch with them.

I'm now in the Netherlands and will stay here. No Portugal for me ever again.

I have another bishop and stake president. I don't speak much with them though.

38 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I do not believe that there is a "wall" preventing me from continuous growth into the future- in a million years of spiritual progression after death I am sure one can become a lot like Father.   We usually do not think that way- but I believe it is possible!!

And there are scriptures about Jacob and Abraham and others who's earth life was thousands of years ago who have progressed very far- so who knows? 

 😀!

But there is another thing about us- Father NOW is still progressing with his children- "how long" (in a world beyond time!) has He been at it?

We can never ever possibly "catch up" to him- so Father will always be OUR FATHER- he is the only one we have the privilege to worship!!

Amen. 👍

Edited August 4 by Dario_M

[PacMan]

14 hours ago, Dario_M said:

But do Egyptians not believe in more then one God or so?

While we in the LDS believe only in the one real God. How are the endowments so similar? We do not perform endowments in the pyramids you know @PacMan

Unfortunately, we can’t talk specifically about the similarities. You’ll understand once you go to the temple. I’m interested how the critics explain away the similarities despite their knowledge being unavailable to Joseph Smith. 

[Dario_M]

18 minutes ago, PacMan said:

Unfortunately, we can’t talk specifically about the similarities. 

Why not?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

On 8/2/2024 at 7:57 AM, PacMan said:

My question is, what’s the critics’ response to the similarities with the LDS and Egyptian endowments?

Where can I read an objective summary of the “Egyptian endowment?” From a non-Mormon Egyptologist preferably. 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I do not believe that there is a "wall" preventing me from continuous growth into the future- in a million years of spiritual progression after death I am sure one can become a lot like Father.   We usually do not think that way- but I believe it is possible!!

All things are possible with God…so with his help, eternal progression seems pretty much a given to me for anyone who desires such.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

Why not?

Being respectful for the current temple ceremonies, most devout Saints won’t share much online.  They may share more face to face or privately where they know the other person will respect the rituals, though some aspects we have covenanted to only speak them in the temple.

Edited August 4 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

objective

“Objective” is a myth, so nowhere.  😛 

[blackstrap]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

“Objective” is a myth,

Either that or , " All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”  and we replace animals with ' scholarly publications'

and equal with  ' objective ' . 

[Dario_M]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

Being respectful for the current temple ceremonies, most devout Saints won’t share much online.  They may share more face to face or privately where they know the other person will respect the rituals, though some aspects we have covenanted to only speak them in the temple.

Aawh okay i understand. Make sense indeed. 👍

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

“Objective” is a myth, so nowhere.  😛 

How about a description of the “endowment” from someone outside of Mormonism. 

[blackstrap]

20 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

“endowment”

Non-Mormon scholars rarely if ever use the word 'endowment' , but they have lots to say about ' rituals ' . Nibley purposely avoids direct parallels with the LDS ceremony , but ...

[SeekingUnderstanding]

35 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

Non-Mormon scholars rarely if ever use the word 'endowment' , but they have lots to say about ' rituals ' . Nibley purposely avoids direct parallels with the LDS ceremony , but ...

Hence why I used the quotes. I would love to read a description of the ritual in question written by someone who has no contact with Mormonism. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

7 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Hence why I used the quotes. I would love to read a description of the ritual in question written by someone who has no contact with Mormonism. 

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/religion/dailycult.html#:~:text=In ancient Egypt%2C every day,in the form of images.

🤙 Don't know if that's what you are looking for, but maybe following the links will get you there?

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

There is One Real God, the Father, called El, he adopted seventy angels as his sons, the council of the sons of El. When Babel (and its great tower) fell, the scattered humans were divided into seventy nations, these seventy sons of El were made "lords" over these seventy nations, sometimes they are called "gods" by the people they are over. All these others come from a common Father, Yahweh "the Lord" (Jesus) became the Lord God over Israel, was the Son of El. Ba'al (Lord/Taskmaster) was lord god of Phoenicia and the son of El. Chemosh (Subduer) was the lord god of Moab and the son of El, Molech (King) was the lord god of Ammon and was the son of El, Bel (Lord) Marduk was the lord god of Babylon and the son of Ea. Ra was the lord god of Egypt and was the son of Khnum.

However, we don't "believe in", or have faith in, other gods.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, as there be gods many, and lords many, but to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Endowments of the kings in other nations as priests is so similar, obviously because they have a common origin, but people don't want to admit it, as it gives other religions some validity. The kings assume the identify of their ancient ancestor (like Adam) in a death and resurrection drama, followed by the "endowment" of the king in clothing like his god's (like a robe) in the temple. Pyramids are temples, they represent the first land to emerge from the primeval sea. Eden was that first land, Eden was at the summit of the mountain of God. The Temple of Jerusalem also represents Eden on a mountain, so mountains were carved on the back side.

* And the views of this poster are not necessarily the views of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or its members. Spiritual discretion advised.

This is strictly speculation, and none of it is "doctrine".

 

[PacMan]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Hence why I used the quotes. I would love to read a description of the ritual in question written by someone who has no contact with Mormonism. 

Your best bet is to look at citations within LDS material.  After all, non-LDS are not going to be sensitive to the similarities to even look for them.
 

I have a whole library of sources, but I don't have links to them all.  Here's something worth reviewing:

https://cdn.interpreterfoundation.org/jnlpdf/ricks-v37-2020-pp319-330-PDF.pdf?src=art

 

This is particularly interesting with photos:

https://interpreterfoundation.org/knowhy-otl14a-what-similarities-are-there-between-egyptian-and-israelite-temples/

 

Edited August 5 by PacMan

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Hence why I used the quotes. I would love to read a description of the ritual in question written by someone who has no contact with Mormonism. 

The anti's will be more than happy to provide that. 

Also it would be hard to trust their sources.  Impossible, I think.  The symbols are not unlike semiphore code which connect with other given symbols.  It took me years to even notice the connections. 

And I would be contradicting myself to illustrate my own point.   So, bottom line, I don't see how it is possible.

BUT Catholic symbols are examples of the TYPE of things I am discussing, and Catholics are taught their meanings- without any worry about explaining their meanings.

Again- this has nothing to do with LDS symbols EXCEPT that they are similar in their NATURE to LDS symbols.   These KINDS of symbols occur in many many religions with ancient origins- especially I think in Orthodox Christianity.

https://catholic.store/products/hand-of-christ-1

The way I learned it in Catholic High School:  Right Index finger, thumb and middle finger extended symbolize the Trinity.

Other two folded fingers represent the two natures of Christ- divine and mortal.   These of course are not our beliefs, and strictly ok in Catholicism, any similarity is an analogy.

Edited August 5 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, Dario_M said:

I'm save in the Netherlands on the moment thank you.

Yeah.

I haven't done the endowment yet no.

I'm now in the Netherlands and will stay here. No Portugal for me ever again.

I have another bishop and stake president. I don't speak much with them though.

Amen. 👍

Netherlands! Excellent!

Dutch is VERY close to English in pronunciation- I recall being on a bus in Amsterdam listening to people behind me having a conversation, and it sounded to me that they were speaking English-all the sounds seemed IDENTICAL but I had absolutely no idea what they were talking about.   Not surprising considering its proximity to France and England!

But you should seek out your bishop.   He can help you!