Lesson 23 - The Scattering and Gathering of Israel

[marineland]

I'm into lesson 23 of the Religion 275 class manual.  

108 - Explain to students that in the Book of Mormon, the word Gentiles usually refers 
to those who are not from the tribe of Judah or from the land of Judah.

Which part(s) of the Book of Mormon specifically show the descendants of Lehi, Zoram,
Mulek, Ishmael, or the northern tribes can usually be referred to as "Gentiles"?

Edited July 23, 2024 by marineland

[CV75]

2 hours ago, marineland said:

I'm into lesson 23 of the Religion 275 class manual.  

108 - Explain to students that in the Book of Mormon, the word Gentiles usually refers 
to those who are not from the tribe of Judah or from the land of Judah.

Which part(s) of the Book of Mormon specifically show the descendants of Lehi, Zoram,
Mulek, Ishmael, or the northern tribes can usually be referred to as "Gentiles"?

Lehi, Zoram, Mulek and Ishmael had their roots in the tribe of Judah or the land of Judah regardless of tribal affiliation.

The Lord mentions the "lost tribes" in connection with the larger covenant group, the people of Israel, in 3 Nephi 17 and 21.

Where do you find the "northern tribes" mentioned in the Book of Mormon, and where it is necessary to clarify whether they are or are not not Gentiles?

What aspect of the term "usually" prompts your question?

[marineland]

On 7/23/2024 at 6:58 PM, CV75 said:

Lehi, Zoram, Mulek and Ishmael had their roots in the tribe of Judah or the land of Judah regardless of tribal affiliation.

The Lord mentions the "lost tribes" in connection with the larger covenant group, the people of Israel, in 3 Nephi 17 and 21.

Where do you find the "northern tribes" mentioned in the Book of Mormon, and where it is necessary to clarify whether they are or are not not Gentiles?

What aspect of the term "usually" prompts your question?

What prompted the question is the teaching from the manual I quoted - Explain to students
that in the Book of Mormon, the word Gentiles usually refers to those who are not from the
tribe of Judah or from the land of Judah.

Which part of the Book of Mormon usually uses the word Gentiles to refer to Israelites who
are in the lineage of tribes other than Judah or Benjamin?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

What prompted the question is the teaching from the manual I quoted - Explain to students
that in the Book of Mormon, the word Gentiles usually refers to those who are not from the
tribe of Judah or from the land of Judah.

Which part of the Book of Mormon usually uses the word Gentiles to refer to Israelites who
are in the lineage of tribes other than Judah or Benjamin?

This is kind of the same question that prompted my first question. Substitute “northern tribes” with “those” as follows:

Where do you find “those” [or “these,” “them,” "other sheep" if that is sufficiently encompassing, etc.] mentioned in the Book of Mormon referring to Israelites other than Judah or Benjamin, and where it is necessary to clarify whether they are or are not Gentiles?

[InCognitus]

On 7/23/2024 at 1:58 PM, marineland said:

I'm into lesson 23 of the Religion 275 class manual.  

108 - Explain to students that in the Book of Mormon, the word Gentiles usually refers 
to those who are not from the tribe of Judah or from the land of Judah.

Which part(s) of the Book of Mormon specifically show the descendants of Lehi, Zoram,
Mulek, Ishmael, or the northern tribes can usually be referred to as "Gentiles"?

This can be partially answered with something I just posted to you in the other thread.

In discussing Isaiah 11:10-16, I had said, "The Ephraimites (and Manasseh) among the Gentile nations are gathered first (they are called Gentiles)".  The following was said in response:

On 7/17/2024 at 7:46 AM, theplains said:

It's peculiar to LDS theology to view it that way.  I think (maybe I could be wrong) even the Book 
of Mormon views Gentiles and Israelites as referring to the same people.

To which I just replied (here) : "It’s not really peculiar to LDS theology when you examine it.  Remember our discussion about Genesis 48:19, where Jacob set Ephraim before Manasseh?   Jacob said of Ephraim (the younger of the two), “his younger brother shall be greater than he [Manasseh], and his [Ephraim’s] seed shall become a multitude of nations.”  (Genesis 48:19).  The Hebrew word translated as “nations” in that verse is ggôyim (גֹּויִם), which is also translated as Gentiles in other places, and it’s the same word found in Isaiah 11:10, where it says 'to it [the ensign] shall the Gentiles [ggôyim] seek'.   So it’s found right in the Biblical texts."

The point, being, that the word Gentile can have different meanings (in Hebrew, Greek, or English).  It can simply mean "nations" or refer to a non-Jew or non-Judahite, or a non-Israelite, or even "those guys over there in that other land" depending on who is talking and what they are talking about.

There's a 2019 article on the Interpreter Foundation website called, Gentiles in the Book of Mormon, by John Hilton III, Ryan Sharp, Brad Wilcox and Jaron Hansen.  In the article they define the confusion that sometimes arises when defining the word Gentile (and this is not limited to a Latter-day Saint application of the word):

Quote

The term Gentile can be confusing. Two biblical scholars illuminated this confusion when they wrote, “the term ‘Gentiles’ is a Jewish (and, from the first century ce, also a Christian) term applied collectively to all non-Jews (and, by Christians, to non-Christian non-Jews), and Gentiles themselves applied other divisions … based on class (free man vs. slaves and rulers vs. subjects), gender (males and females) or ethnicity (Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, Jews, and so on).”⁹ Because of the various nuances described, it can be difficult to find an exact, uniform definition for the word Gentiles.

Paul Y. Hoskisson provided some clarity when he explained, “The word Gentile has several meanings that can be traced back etymologically to one original concept, the idea of a people or tribe. The English word Gentile comes from a Latin word that means ‘tribe, clan, family, people, etc.'” This means that Gentiles, in general terms, simply implies a segregation between various people; it gives the idea of them and us. He continued: “In this sense Gentile is a good translation of the Hebrew word goy/goyim in the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek word ethnos/ethne in the Greek New Testament, both of which also mean ‘people.'”¹⁰ Thus, when the term Gentiles is used in a biblical context, it most often refers to non-Jewish nations.

Monte S. Nyman described how the Book of Mormon uses similar language when he wrote, “The Gentiles, as the term is used in the Book of Mormon, are all those who are not Jews, including those who may be of the blood of Israel but have lost their identity and been assimilated into non-Jewish nations.”¹¹ Specifically, the authors in the Book of Mormon tended to employ Gentiles when referring to anyone who is not from their tribe, or anyone who is not a Jew.

That article might answer your question about the Book of Mormon usage, as it presents a rather in-depth analysis of the use of the word in the text.

Edited July 26, 2024 by InCognitus

[CV75]

2 hours ago, InCognitus said:

This can be partially answered with something I just posted to you in the other thread.

In discussing Isaiah 11:10-16, I had said, "The Ephraimites (and Manasseh) among the Gentile nations are gathered first (they are called Gentiles)".  The following was said in response:

To which I just replied (here) : "It’s not really peculiar to LDS theology when you examine it.  Remember our discussion about Genesis 48:19, where Jacob set Ephraim before Manasseh?   Jacob said of Ephraim (the younger of the two), “his younger brother shall be greater than he [Manasseh], and his [Ephraim’s] seed shall become a multitude of nations.”  (Genesis 48:19).  The Hebrew word translated as “nations” in that verse is ggôyim (גֹּויִם), which is also translated as Gentiles in other places, and it’s the same word found in Isaiah 11:10, where it says 'to it [the ensign] shall the Gentiles [ggôyim] seek'.   So it’s found right in the Biblical texts."

The point, being, that the word Gentile can have different meanings (in Hebrew, Greek, or English).  It can simply mean "nations" or refer to a non-Jew or non-Judahite, or a non-Israelite, or even "those guys over there in that other land" depending on who is talking and what they are talking about.

There's a 2019 article on the Interpreter Foundation website called, Gentiles in the Book of Mormon, by John Hilton III, Ryan Sharp, Brad Wilcox and Jaron Hansen.  In the article they define the confusion that sometimes arises when defining the word Gentile (and this is not limited to a Latter-day Saint application of the word):

That article might answer your question about the Book of Mormon usage, as it presents a rather in-depth analysis of the use of the word in the text.

Since the Book of Mormon was written by and about the descendants of people from the "land of Jerusalem" (as introduced and used in 1 Nephi), wherever a distinction between them and the Gentiles is made, other descendants and remnants of the chosen people from other tribes and lands of Israel such as the "[land of the] northern kingdom" would not be under direct consideration. So in the Book of Mormon, naturally / typically / usually the word “Gentiles” refers to those who are from the tribe of Judah or from the land of Judah.

Those passages addressing this set and others from among chosen people in terms such as twelve tribes, lost tribes, Israel, remnants of Israel, other sheep, etc. never (which is far less than "usually") refer to them as “Gentiles,” or similarly stated, the term "Gentiles" never refers to them.

The Jaredites are not referred to as "Gentiles." 

[marineland]

On 7/26/2024 at 7:15 PM, InCognitus said:

There's a 2019 article on the Interpreter Foundation website called, Gentiles in the Book of Mormon, by John Hilton III, Ryan Sharp, Brad Wilcox and Jaron Hansen.  In the article they define the confusion that sometimes arises when defining the word Gentile (and this is not limited to a Latter-day Saint application of the word):

That article might answer your question about the Book of Mormon usage, as it presents a rather in-depth analysis of the use of the word in the text.

Thank you.

[marineland]

On 7/26/2024 at 2:35 PM, CV75 said:

This is kind of the same question that prompted my first question. Substitute “northern tribes” with “those” as follows:

Where do you find “those” [or “these,” “them,” "other sheep" if that is sufficiently encompassing, etc.] mentioned in the Book of Mormon referring to Israelites other than Judah or Benjamin, and where it is necessary to clarify whether they are or are not Gentiles?

Let me rephrase my question and quote again what Religion 275 said.  Focus on the tribal
identity and the condition of  or.

108 - Explain to students that in the Book of Mormon, the word Gentiles usually refers 
to those who are not from the tribe of Judah  or  from the land of Judah.

How are those in the Book of Mormon (the descendants of Lehi, Zoram, and Ishmael;
who are not from the tribe of Judah) usually referred to as Gentiles?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

Let me rephrase my question and quote again what Religion 275 said.  Focus on the tribal
identity and the condition of  or.

108 - Explain to students that in the Book of Mormon, the word Gentiles usually refers 
to those who are not from the tribe of Judah  or  from the land of Judah.

How are those in the Book of Mormon (the descendants of Lehi, Zoram, and Ishmael;
who are not from the tribe of Judah) usually referred to as Gentiles?

They are not referred to as Gentiles. Not being from the tribe of Judah still allows them to be from the land of Judah; maybe you can consider line 108 from that perspective. This this basis for my comments in this post: Posted Friday at 09:32 PM

 

[theplains]

On 7/26/2024 at 7:15 PM, InCognitus said:

To which I just replied (here) : "It’s not really peculiar to LDS theology when you examine it.  Remember our discussion about Genesis 48:19, where Jacob set Ephraim before Manasseh?   Jacob said of Ephraim (the younger of the two), “his younger brother shall be greater than he [Manasseh], and his [Ephraim’s] seed shall become a multitude of nations.”  (Genesis 48:19).  The Hebrew word translated as “nations” in that verse is ggôyim (גֹּויִם), which is also translated as Gentiles in other places, and it’s the same word found in Isaiah 11:10, where it says 'to it [the ensign] shall the Gentiles [ggôyim] seek'.   So it’s found right in the Biblical texts."

The point, being, that the word Gentile can have different meanings (in Hebrew, Greek, or English).  It can simply mean "nations" or refer to a non-Jew or non-Judahite, or a non-Israelite, or even "those guys over there in that other land" depending on who is talking and what they are talking about.

There's a 2019 article on the Interpreter Foundation website called, Gentiles in the Book of Mormon, by John Hilton III, Ryan Sharp, Brad Wilcox and Jaron Hansen. 

Thanks. I'll check it out. 

[marineland]

On 7/28/2024 at 2:12 PM, CV75 said:

They are not referred to as Gentiles. Not being from the tribe of Judah still allows them to be from the land of Judah; maybe you can consider line 108 from that perspective. This this basis for my comments in this post: Posted Friday at 09:32 PM

 

It might be clearer if I just quoted the first part of what the manual said:

108 - Explain to students that in the Book of Mormon, the word Gentiles usually refers 
to those who are not from the tribe of Judah

So, it seems the descendants of Lehi are usually referred to as Gentiles.

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, marineland said:

It might be clearer if I just quoted the first part of what the manual said:

108 - Explain to students that in the Book of Mormon, the word Gentiles usually refers 
to those who are not from the tribe of Judah

So, it seems the descendants of Lehi are usually referred to as Gentiles.

I'm not sure why you keep trying to leave off the last part of the sentence from the manual, since the entire context is significant to your question.  The full quote from the manual is:

"Explain to students that in the Book of Mormon, the word Gentiles usually refers to those who are not from the tribe of Judah or from the land of Judah."

Since Lehi and his family clearly departed from "the land of Jerusalem" (i.e. Judah), which according to scholars consisted of Jerusalem and its surrounding area at that time, why would you think Lehi and his family should be considered "Gentiles" using this definition, unless you purposely leave off the portion of the definition that includes Lehi and his family in the area that would not be called "Gentiles"?

[CV75]

2 hours ago, marineland said:

It might be clearer if I just quoted the first part of what the manual said:

108 - Explain to students that in the Book of Mormon, the word Gentiles usually refers 
to those who are not from the tribe of Judah

So, it seems the descendants of Lehi are usually referred to as Gentiles.

Yes, I understood from your previous explanation how you derived that notion from the way you prefer to construe the use of "or" or omitting the second half of the construction altogether. Which is why I suggested you consider the construction that leads to the fuller and more correct understanding of who the Book of Mormon refers to as Gentiles (or the explanation provided previously). Good luck! Or not!

Moroni had the same problem with phrasing: "And behold, I would write it also if I had room upon the plates, but I have not; and / or I have none." -- Mormon 8:5

[marineland]

On 8/2/2024 at 5:36 PM, InCognitus said:

I'm not sure why you keep trying to leave off the last part of the sentence from the manual, since the entire context is significant to your question.  The full quote from the manual is:

"Explain to students that in the Book of Mormon, the word Gentiles usually refers to those who are not from the tribe of Judah or from the land of Judah."

Since Lehi and his family clearly departed from "the land of Jerusalem" (i.e. Judah), which according to scholars consisted of Jerusalem and its surrounding area at that time, why would you think Lehi and his family should be considered "Gentiles" using this definition, unless you purposely leave off the portion of the definition that includes Lehi and his family in the area that would not be called "Gentiles"?

Thank you. I see your point about me not putting emphasis about the second half of that
teaching - "or from the land of Judah".

Let's look at the first part - "who are not from the tribe of Judah".  Where does the Book
of Mormon usually refer to Gentiles as those of Manasseh and Ephraim that were not 
from the land of Judah and other Israelite tribes such as Dan or Naphtali?

Edited August 7, 2024 by marineland

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

Thank you. I see your point about me not putting emphasis about the second half of that
teaching - "or from the land of Judah".

Let's look at the first part - "who are not from the tribe of Judah".  Where does the Book
of Mormon usually refer to Gentiles as those of Manasseh and Ephraim that were not 
from the land of Judah and other Israelite tribes such as Dan or Naphtali?

The easiest one to see is from the Title Page of the Book of Mormon (which was part of the translation from the plates), where it says:

"Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God."

The "by way of the Gentile" was through Joseph Smith, who was of the tribe of Ephraim.  But it uses similar references all through the Book of Mormon.

[Dario_M]

On 7/23/2024 at 9:58 PM, marineland said:

I'm into lesson 23 of the Religion 275 class manual.  

 

What is that for stuff?  Book of Mormon or Doctrines & covenands?

Edited August 8, 2024 by Dario_M

[Calm]

13 hours ago, Dario_M said:

What is that for stuff?  Book of Mormon or Doctrines & covenands?

For some reason, the link is stalling out for me, so I may be mistaken, but Religion 275 usually on this board refers to an Institute level class, which are religion courses available to LDS college age kids.  They are a required part of BYU curriculum and part of an extracurricular religious study/social program at nonBYU universities that will often have an Institute building nearby for the students to meet and socialize in. Institute has many classes for all the scriptures as well as some general church doctrine and history classes.  They are not the usual academic type of religion classes, but are more like Bible study classes (I am guessing here as I have never been to a nonLDS Bible Study class).  Iow, they are not critically/academically studying the texts and history, but doing so with the intent to strengthen faith.  

The Institute manuals are online so anyone can study from them.  I used to own all the scripture ones, just to check what was said.  The Old Testament ones are not ones I would recommend imo.  They are quite out of date for biblical info.  They should have been rewritten decades ago.  They also have some crazy stuff about the creation of the earth that is not the least bit doctrinal or official church teaching, but pure speculation and pseudoscience that was rebutted long ago.  The Institute manuals that are more recently done try to stay away from speculation and are better, but still devotional rather than academic and likely always will be.  Institute is meant to help us be better disciples of Christ, not like the usual college stuff.
 

Does that answer your question or were you thinking of something else?

[Dario_M]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

The Institute manuals are online so anyone can study from them.  I used to own all the scripture ones, just to check what was said.  The Old Testament ones are not ones I would recommend imo.  They are quite out of date for biblical info.  They should have been rewritten decades ago.  They also have some crazy stuff about the creation of the earth that is not the least bit doctrinal or official church teaching, but pure speculation and pseudoscience that was rebutted long ago.  The Institute manuals that are more recently done try to stay away from speculation and are better, but still devotional rather than academic and likely always will be.  Institute is meant to help us be better disciples of Christ, not like the usual college stuff.
 

Does that answer your question or were you thinking of something else?

Yes this answers my question indeed. 

It's funny what you said about the old testament. I feel the same about the old testament. I can't even read that thing. And how the earth has been created and such. I don't like speculations i want facts you know.  

Anyway.. thank you for your explenation. I have so much to learn. 

Edited August 9, 2024 by Dario_M

[Calm]

I love the Old Testament, but I don’t treat it as a history at all. I think Brigham Young was on target when he called them baby stories in the sense they are meant to teach us how those in the past thought about about the world and God in very simple ways…though I wouldn’t use “baby stories” myself given the PG-13 and R-rated nature of many of the stories, lol. 

And since we are missing out so much of the context that would have been understood by ancient readers and have to guess so much to fill out the stories, I look on that Testament’s purpose as less to provide answers and more to drive us to seek out God for the answers he wants to give us if we ask of him and especially to establish our own relationship with God as they saw themselves as having one once they sought out God in response to his reaching out to them, but it will be in ways that are meaningful to us as their forms of connections were meaningful to them. 

Edited August 9, 2024 by Calm

[marineland]

On 8/7/2024 at 1:47 PM, InCognitus said:

The easiest one to see is from the Title Page of the Book of Mormon (which was part of the translation from the plates), where it says:

"Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God."

The "by way of the Gentile" was through Joseph Smith, who was of the tribe of Ephraim.  But it uses similar references all through the Book of Mormon.

How do you identify an Ephraimite who is not a Gentile?

[marineland]

On 8/8/2024 at 2:50 AM, Dario_M said:

What is that for stuff?  Book of Mormon or Doctrines & covenands?

Teachings and Doctrine of the Book of Mormon Teacher Manual.

[Dario_M]

29 minutes ago, marineland said:

Teachings and Doctrine of the Book of Mormon Teacher Manual.

But the Doctrines & Covenands are not in the Book of Mormon. They are in another book. A black book from what i have heard.

[webbles]

3 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

But the Doctrines & Covenands are not in the Book of Mormon. They are in another book. A black book from what i have heard.

"Teachings and Doctrine of the Book of Mormon" isn't referencing the "Doctrine & Covenants" (I'm shortening it to D&C from now on).  You are right that the D&C is a separate book from the Book of Mormon.  But the Book of Mormon contains "teachings" (people teach in it and we can learn from their teachings) and "doctrines" (beliefs and knowledge).  So, the book "Teachings and Doctrine of the Book of Mormon" is a book that talks about the "teachings and doctrine" that is contained inside of the Book of Mormon.

[marineland]

On 8/9/2024 at 11:12 AM, Dario_M said:

But the Doctrines & Covenands are not in the Book of Mormon.

Correct.  I am reaching from a seminary manual about the Book of Mormon.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/12557_eng.pdf?lang=eng

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

Correct.  I am reaching from a seminary manual about the Book of Mormon.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/12557_eng.pdf?lang=eng

Oh really? How interesting.