The broad way (being single) leads to death?

[JVW]

I recently read a really nice article about the topic of fearing God which I liked a lot. I highly recommend you check out this 5-10 minute article if you'd like more perspective on what it means to fear God. https://www.oneforisrael.org/bible-based-teaching-from-israel/why-is-it-good-to-fear-god/

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Dario_M said:

And i fear God a lot. Without him i will go to hell. And i anbsolutely don't wanna go to hell. That's maybey the biggist fear that i have on the moment. 

If you truly don’t want to go to hell you won’t imo.  You may need time in spirit prison before entering paradise, but I suspect that is more school than punishment because why would God punish someone willing to repent if only they knew what they needed to repent/change in order to be better aligned with what God wants for us.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng#p8

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, JVW said:

I recently read a really nice article about the topic of fearing God which I liked a lot. I highly recommend you check out this 5-10 minute article if you'd like more perspective on what it means to fear God. https://www.oneforisrael.org/bible-based-teaching-from-israel/why-is-it-good-to-fear-god/

I like his upside down world quote except for this part below…I am wondering about the context, if this is “purposeful suffering purifies” (as in making hard sacrifices for something that benefits those one loves) I might be able to get behind it; if it is we should glory in any tragedy because that proves to God we are sincere, I am less likely to agree.

Quote

and happiest when he feels worst.

 

Edited July 8, 2024 by Calm

[JVW]

That part is a strange part to me. The only thing I can think of is that God requires a broken heart and contrite spirit in order to be acceptable before him. The broken heart is one of sorrow and tragedy. It also is humble and open to receiving the touch of the divine which brings peace that surpasses all understanding. That's my way of attempting to make sense of that bit.

[ZealouslyStriving]

54 minutes ago, Calm said:

If you truly don’t want to go to hell you won’t imo.  You may need time in spirit prison before entering paradise, but I suspect that is more school than punishment because why would God punish someone willing to repent if only they knew what they needed to repent/change in order to be better aligned with what God wants for us.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng#p8

The condition of hell prior to resurrection is reserved for the willfully rebellious- general spirit prison is a place of learning and repentance.

"Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom." (Gospel Principles, Chapter 41)

Edit: or what calm linked to. 🥴

Edited July 8, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[smac97]

On 7/4/2024 at 10:32 AM, telnetd said:

In Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-25, where the context is the law of marriage, why is footnote b in verse 25 (deaths) referencing both Topical Guide "Death, Spiritual, First" and "Death, Spiritual, Second"?

"For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me".

"Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths (b); and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law".

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng#note25b
 

Footnote b in verse 25 also references Matthew 7:13-14, which states:

Quote

13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I think the general principle here is obedience to God.  Disobedience is the broad gate.  Faithful obedience is the strait gate.

Thanks,

-Smac

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

The condition of hell prior to resurrection is reserved for the willfully rebellious- general spirit prison is a place of learning and repentance.

"Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom." (Gospel Principles, Chapter 41)

Edit: or what calm linked to. 🥴

Not according to the Book of Mormon. There the Spirit World is a strict divide between the blessed and the suffering.

The ‘Spirit World is a place of learning’ idea sounds just and good but it is not scriptural and the only thing that kind of hints at this obliquely is Joseph F. Smith’s vision but even that only tells how Jesus interacted with people in the Spirit World and very little about the state of those there.

Then again the Book of Mormon has an absolutist take on the Spirit World and the post-Resurrection judgement. It only teaches the extremes. In it you have exaltation or you have Outer Darkness with no mention of anything between.

[ZealouslyStriving]

19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Not according to the Book of Mormon. There the Spirit World is a strict divide between the blessed and the suffering.

The ‘Spirit World is a place of learning’ idea sounds just and good but it is not scriptural and the only thing that kind of hints at this obliquely is Joseph F. Smith’s vision but even that only tells how Jesus interacted with people in the Spirit World and very little about the state of those there.

Then again the Book of Mormon has an absolutist take on the Spirit World and the post-Resurrection judgement. It only teaches the extremes. In it you have exaltation or you have Outer Darkness with no mention of anything between.

"Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little..."

Terrestrial:

"73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;"

Telestial:

"106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;"

(Doctrine and Covenants 76)

*You still seem under the impression that I haven't studied my scriptures.

But... it is good to know that you are now accepting the Book of Mormon as authoritative. May I presume you will be joining with the Temple Lot Saints- or are the Pentecostal stylings of the Bickertonites more your flavor?

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

"Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little..."

Okay.

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Terrestrial:

"73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;"

Then we learn in D&C 138 that the Son did not visit them.

I am aware the D&C teaches the three degrees of glory. The Book of Mormon does not.

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Telestial:

"106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;"

(Doctrine and Covenants 76)

I always find it interesting that this suggests that only those who lived a life fit for a Telestial glory don’t get the gospel taught to them the way Terrestrial goers do.

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

*You still seem under the impression that I haven't studied my scriptures.

You seem to be under the impression that I am unaware of the D&C and what it teaches. Or that I was caught by surprise by your rebuttal. I point out that the Book of Mormon taught a simpler system of judgement and you think I am shocked to find out that other scriptures teach something different and more expansive.

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

But... it is good to know that you are now accepting the Book of Mormon as authoritative. May I presume you will be joining with the Temple Lot Saints- or are the Pentecostal stylings of the Bickertonites more your flavor?

Tempting. If I converted I wouldn’t have to go to church three hours early for Bishopric meeting.

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Then we learn in D&C 138 that the Son did not visit them.

Aaaannnddd, it explains what was meant:

"29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead."

Through the ministry of His servants He preached to them:

"...whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same."

[ZealouslyStriving]

There is no contradiction, but clarification.

 

[Dario_M]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

If you truly don’t want to go to hell you won’t imo.  You may need time in spirit prison before entering paradise, but I suspect that is more school than punishment because why would God punish someone willing to repent if only they knew what they needed to repent/change in order to be better aligned with what God wants for us.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng#p8

Yeah okay that's true. Spirit prison is fine with me. If i go there after i die that will not be a problem. Thank you for the link. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Yeah okay that's true. Spirit prison is fine with me. If i go there after i die that will not be a problem. Thank you for the link. 

I think most people in and out of the Church are going to spend time there unless there is quite a bit of teaching and progression in paradise as well.

Edited July 9, 2024 by Calm

[Dario_M]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

I think most people in and out of the Church are going to spend time there unless there is quite a bit of teaching and progression in paradise as well.

Yeah i also believe that.

So at least i will not be alone when the situation comes so far that i will go to a place like that someday when my time has come. 

God bless you Calm. ✝️

[manol]

On 7/6/2024 at 8:12 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Don't let the antis here fool you with their sophistry... Like all their lot anciently, those opposed to the truth twist scripture, hoping to lead astray the underinformed. Don't fall for it.

It sounds to me like I may have violated my own values and caused you to fear that I'm “opposed to the truth” and trying to “lead astray the uninformed”.

Can we have a conversation about what I said that set off your alarms? It would be educational for me, and we might find some common ground.

Edited July 13, 2024 by manol

[ZealouslyStriving]

22 minutes ago, manol said:

It sounds to me like I may have violated my own values and caused you to fear that I'm “opposed to the truth” and trying to “lead astray the uninformed”.

Can we have a conversation about what I said that set off your alarms? It would be educational for me, and we might find some common ground.

I went back to reacquaint myself with that particular exchange. I was referring less to your post than to the characterization by another poster of God torturing people.

I believe a proper understanding of what Godly fear is and isn't is important. I also believe that there are those who should fear God in the sense that many interpret the word fear- but those are generally the types that don't have the proper fear of God and are proud and rebellious.

Edited July 13, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[manol]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I went back to reacquaint myself with that particular exchange. I was referring less to your post than to the characterization by another poster of God torturing people.

Thanks for letting me know. 

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I also believe that there are those who should fear God in the sense that many interpret the word fear- but those are generally the types that don't have the proper fear of God and are proud and rebellious.

I think you are talking about those who would benefit from a solid kick in the backside, so to speak, to get them started in the direction they should go.  Imo the teaching that "fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" is about fear as an incentive for beginners (which we all are at some times and in some ways!), but imo fear of the Lord it is not the destination and endpoint of wisdom's path. 

I believe that the destination and endpoint of wisdom's path is perfect love, and that "perfect love casts out fear."

In other words, despite the preponderance of scripture which promotes fear of God, I believe there is a valid perspective from which there is absolutely no need to fear God.  And I understand that that's probably a pretty weird idea, and certainly do not expect anyone to change their mind on the subject because of an anonymous post on an internet message board! 

Just to be clear, I DO believe in responsibility and accountability. I believe that we are responsible for our deeds, our words, our thoughts, our attitudes, and even our perceptions.  I believe we are accountable for all of our choices, but that we are never rejected by God over them.  I believe everything that comes along is an opportunity to align ourselves with the light to the best of our ability in the moment. 

Edited July 13, 2024 by manol

[ZealouslyStriving]

5 minutes ago, manol said:

Thanks for letting me know. 

I think you are talking about those who would benefit from a solid kick in the backside, so to speak, to get them started in the direction they should go.  Imo the teaching that "fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" is about fear as an incentive for beginners (which we all are at some times and in some ways!), but imo fear of the Lord it is not the destination and endpoint of wisdom's path. 

I believe that the destination and endpoint of wisdom's path is perfect love, and that "perfect love casts out fear."

In other words, despite the preponderance of scripture which promotes fear of God, I believe there is a valid perspective from which there is absolutely no need to fear God.  And I understand that that's probably a pretty weird idea, and certainly do not expect anyone to change their mind on the subject because of an anonymous post on an internet message board! 

Just to be clear, I DO believe in responsibility and accountability. I believe that we are responsible for our deeds, our words, our thoughts, our attitudes, and even our perceptions.  I believe we are accountable for all of our choices, but that we are never rejected by God over them.  I believe everything that comes along is an opportunity to align ourselves with the light to the best of our ability in the moment. 

I think we are have different ideas of what "fear" is.

* You appear to interpret it in most instances of "fear" as being in dred, or scared of. Which I would agree should not be the end of our faith.

* I see "fear" as holy reverence- being in awe of Him- which I believe is something we should retain throughout eternity for our Father and God.

 

[manol]

12 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I think we are have different ideas of what "fear" is.

* You appear to interpret it in most instances of "fear" as being in dred, or scared of. Which I would agree should not be the end of our faith.

* I see "fear" as holy reverence- being in awe of Him- which I believe is something we should retain throughout eternity for our Father and God.

 

 Yes, those are very different definitions.  I don't use the word "fear" to mean "reverence and awe", and it did not occur to me that you were using it that way.  Apparently we have more underlying common ground that I had assumed. 

Edited July 13, 2024 by manol

[ZealouslyStriving]

5 minutes ago, manol said:

 Yes, those are very different definitions.  I don't use the word "fear" to mean "reverence and awe", and it did not occur to me that you were using it that way. 

Fear

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/fear?lang=eng

 

[Frank11]

On this subject, I wonder how D&C 132:19 is compatible with Jesus' statement: "When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, Frank11 said:

On this subject, I wonder how D&C 132:19 is compatible with Jesus' statement: "When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

Maybe you could ask Christian author Lee Strobel ("A Case for Christ", etc...) who has started teaching that there is marriage in heaven and that they have interpreted those verses wrong. I saw him discuss it with James Robinson a couple years back.

[ZealouslyStriving]

40 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Maybe you could ask Christian author Lee Strobel ("A Case for Christ", etc...) who has started teaching that there is marriage in heaven and that they have interpreted those verses wrong. I saw him discuss it with James Robinson a couple years back.

Go to 14:16

 

[Frank11]

The context in which Jesus replied, "when the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage", is quite clear. Here the Saducees asked to whom the woman belonged who had been married seven times. Jesus wants to make it clear that none of the men has a claim to ownership of the woman, since the marriage covenant has expired. Romans 7 also says this: "For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband." That does not mean, however, that we cannot be together with our loved ones in eternity. I hardly know any Christian who does not believe that they will not be able to see their spouse, children and close friends again later. There is just no formal marriage with obligations that ensure the earthly care of the family, because then it is simply no longer necessary. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

48 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

The context in which Jesus replied, "when the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage", is quite clear. Here the Saducees asked to whom the woman belonged who had been married seven times. Jesus wants to make it clear that none of the men has a claim to ownership of the woman, since the marriage covenant has expired. Romans 7 also says this: "For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband." That does not mean, however, that we cannot be together with our loved ones in eternity. I hardly know any Christian who does not believe that they will not be able to see their spouse, children and close friends again later. There is just no formal marriage with obligations that ensure the earthly care of the family, because then it is simply no longer necessary. 

Ok 🤷