A Sincere "Thank You" to Ex-Mos

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I think you need to read ALL my posts in this thread.

Addendum: I have much sympathy for those who sincerely struggle and esp. their family members, having put my parental figure through that.

Those who life's mission is to attack the Church... not so much. As I don't excuse my own previous behavior.

I think you are missing my point.

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

I think you are missing my point.

Must be.

[ZealouslyStriving]

"One may ask. Have you any feelings of hatred in your heart toward those who delight in persecuting and oppressing you? If they were hungry, and it was in my power, I would feed them; I desire not to bear malice or hatred towards any of the children of my heavenly Father. We must fight the battles of truth, with a desire for the ascendancy of truth, and not personal gratification, remembering that those who oppose us are of the same family, hereafter to be rewarded for the good or evil which they may do while in the flesh" (John H. Smith, JD 26:29)

*My sentiments exactly*

[MustardSeed]

I’d like to sincerely thank all who left my birthday party at 7, which started at 6, because it allowed those who remained to have a better time. 
 

Im not sure how this post is defendable, even considering all that followed.  Sorry. 

[Calm]

46 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

"One may ask. Have you any feelings of hatred in your heart toward those who delight in persecuting and oppressing you? If they were hungry, and it was in my power, I would feed them; I desire not to bear malice or hatred towards any of the children of my heavenly Father. We must fight the battles of truth, with a desire for the ascendancy of truth, and not personal gratification, remembering that those who oppose us are of the same family, hereafter to be rewarded for the good or evil which they may do while in the flesh" (John H. Smith, JD 26:29)

*My sentiments exactly*

All this confirms is I and others possibly misread your opening post and believed you had feelings you didn’t.

Consider you may be doing the same when you perceive bitterness where others are claiming they feel happiness.

Quote

As for the claim of some who leave, yet continually advocate against the Church, your claims of being happier than you've ever been in your life is contradictory to the bitterness contained in many of your post. Your fruits are not displaying that happiness. Just sayin'

 

[Rain]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I know so it seems the members can't get a break. But a lot of times members don't even bring up missing not seeing those that quit coming, or ask why.

I have heard much discussion of those that are missing over the years as I was in leadership or my husband was in leadership. Also a lot fo assumptions of why people were missing, but also a lot of plans to bring people back without knowing why.  What my husband and I have both seen in ward councils was a lot of concerns, but not very good plan-making or planning to understand. I think people get overwhelmed with not only their own lives, but the many people who are missing and the others who have struggles of every kind. 

Then there are also worries like mentioned by someone above that they don't want to offend.  You just never know if you should contact someone or not. 

whatever it is I think most of the time it's not that people don't care or don't miss those not attending anymore. It's more the road to good intentions...We need to learn to love those who have stayed when we haven't and those who have left when we haven't.  And have some grace for the mistakes we both make.   

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Is it because they've been warned about doubters or ? The first counselor and bishop knew of my doubts because I brought it up to the counselor when he was calling me to teach Primary after being released as RS secretary after serving for the full time. I wasn't sure if I could truthfully testify to the lessons I'd be teaching since it was the D&C year of study.

 

[Rain]

5 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I think you need to read ALL my posts in this thread.

Addendum: I have much sympathy for those who sincerely struggle and esp. their family members, having put my parental figure through that.

Those who life's mission is to attack the Church... not so much. As I don't excuse my own previous behavior.

I find most people who attack are actually wounded in some way.  That doesn't mean we should open ourselves up to more attacks (even if the scriptures say turn the other cheek), but it does mean that sometimes we should have patience and love for them and see if we can understand them better to help them heal.

Edited March 29 by Rain

[california boy]

I just listened to David Archuleta's new song that he just released. The lyrics are all about his journey leaving the Church and how much he valued the love his mother showed over his journey    Here are the lyrics that I think are very interesting.

Quote

 

"Hell Together"

Bow your head Don't be bold You'll survive by Doing what you're told Said love is earned And we can't choose But the more you grow You know the truth

And all I want is to make you proud If I would run would I let you down? You said If I have to live without you I don't wanna live forever In someone else's heaven So let em close the gates

Oh if they don't like the way you're made Then they're not any better If Paradise is pressure Oh We'll go to Hell together You and me That's all we need Blood is thicker Than the pages

That they read I'm afraid Of letting go Of the version of me That I used to know Crying tears in Sunday crowds

Took my hand, and we walked out You said If I have to live without you I don't wanna live forever In someone else's heaven So let em close the gates

Oh if they don't like the way you're made Then they're not any better If Paradise is pressure

Oh We'll go to Hell together Hallelujah What's it doing for ya? When it's in the way? Hallelujah

Wish we knew it sooner Walking out with grace If I have to live without you I don't wanna live forever In someone else's heaven

So let em close the gates If they don't like the way you're made Then they're not any better If Paradise is pressure Oh We'll go to Hell together  

 

 

The song is much more impactful than the words.  Here is a link to Spotify  https://open.spotify.com/album/6A7coJEq3Bh4g0hNjpjIHD. If you don't have Spotify, you can also find it on Apple Music, Pandora etc just type his name and the song title "Hell Together"

I definitely identify with what he is saying here.  I too was afraid of letting go of the version of me that I used to know while being in the Church.  But I also realized that I would rather be in "Hell Together" with someone I love and can share this life with.  And if the gates of heaven are closed to me, then it sounds like someone else's version of paradise.

I think this is why many leave the Church.  What the Church's teaches about the "Plan of Happiness" doesn't sound so happy for many.  Not just the LGBT community, but for those that love friends/sons/daughters/fathers/ brothers/ that are LGBT.  Not just LGBT people but as I read the thread on single members share many of the same disappointment of what the "Plan of Happiness" offers them both in this life and the next.  "So let em close the gates If they don't like the way you're made Then they're not any better If Paradise is pressure Oh We'll go to Hell together "

No matter what the reasons for leaving the Church are, whether it was the false narrative of Church history that we were taught our whole lives, the falling apart of Book of Mormon claims, or the Book of Abraham "written by the very hand of Abraham" claims or just not fitting into "The plan of Happiness", there are reasons why people have left to find a different path.  We didn't leave because we no longer loved the company of the members and the many good things the Church does.  You don't need to paint us all as hating the Church or attacking your faith, or leaving because we want to sin or are lazy learners, or whatever term is used to belittle our significants.  You just have to decide if our criticism is an attack against the Church or us pointing out the things about the Church that make the tent much smaller than it needs to be and wish it was a bigger tent so that we too could fit.

When @Analytics advocates for more financial transparency and a better effort to use the wealth of the Church on more humanitarian goals rather than a bigger portfolio, he is not attacking the Church.  He is trying to get the Church to do better. Or @Teancum   who corrects some of the false narrative that sometimes pops up.  Or @Seeking Understanding and me, who wishes the Church had a better place for the LGBT community.  They aren't attacks.  They are things to consider to make the Church more honest, more accountable and a bigger tent.

 

Edited March 29 by california boy

[MiserereNobis]

On 3/28/2024 at 4:40 PM, bluebell said:

From my understanding, buddhism discourages attachment in love (including romantic love).

Buddhism claims that all attachment is part of suffering. One of the Buddha's claimed insights is that all things are temporary and without a Self (meaning something that endures through changes).

On 3/28/2024 at 4:40 PM, bluebell said:

 I thought they also discouraged emotions as inherently temporary, and that some consider love to be an emotion.  Perhaps that is why they do not believe that love sometimes includes sorrow (like at death, for example, or when a loved one does something to harm themselves, like is addicted to drugs)?

There's not a discouragement of emotion, because we can't control that. But emotions, like all things, are temporary. So watch the emotion arise, live, and fade away, without becoming attached to it as part of yourself (since you do not have a Self, and neither do the emotions).

On 3/28/2024 at 4:40 PM, bluebell said:

I read that Theravada is the more conservative of the different types (is that the right word?) of Buddhism.  What does that mean, more conservative?

I think traditional would be a better word. Theravada ("the way of the elders") focuses solely on the traditional teachings. The other major school of Buddhism, Mahayana ("the greater vehicle") uses teachings from monks/masters/Bodhisattvas that came after the Buddha. Americans are usually more familiar or exposed to Mahayana, because that includes Tibetan Buddhism, Chinese Buddhism, and Japanese Buddhism (Zen).