Helaman 14 - signs of Christ's death

[telnetd]

From verses 20-22.

But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, 
in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give 
his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon 
the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space 
of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead.

Yea, at the time that he shall yield up the ghost there shall be thunderings and 
lightnings for the space of many hours, and the earth shall shake and tremble; and 
the rocks which are upon the face of this earth, which are both above the earth and 
beneath, which ye know at this time are solid, or the more part of it is one solid 
mass, shall be broken up;

Yea, they shall be rent in twain, and shall ever after be found in seams and in 
cracks, and in broken fragments upon the face of the whole earth, yea, both above 
the earth and beneath.

According to verse 20, did the darkness begin only from the moment he died or did
it also include the entire part of the day that preceded the crucifixion? Did all 
of the western hemisphere or just the Nephite land endure the three days of darkness?

I can understand the temple veil being torn in twain in Jerusalem, but what is meant
by verse 22 when it says the rocks would be rent in twain and shall ever be found in
seams and cracks?

[pogi]

28 minutes ago, telnetd said:

I can understand the temple veil being torn in twain in Jerusalem, but what is meant
by verse 22 when it says the rocks would be rent in twain and shall ever be found in
seams and cracks?

I think it is just fluffy language used to accentuate how significant the shaking and trembling of the earth would be.  

I wonder what is meant by "which ye know at this time are solid, or the more part of it is one solid mass..."

Confusing.  It speaks of plural "rocks" collectively (or the more part of it) being one solid mass.   What is the singular "it" it is talking about?  

Quote

 

and the rocks which are upon the face of this earth, which are both above the earth and beneath, which ye know at this time are solid, or the more part of it is one solid mass, shall be broken up;

 

The only thing close that I can think of that might match that description is sedimentary rock like this:

 

[CV75]

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

From verses 20-22.

But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, 
in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give 
his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon 
the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space 
of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead.

Yea, at the time that he shall yield up the ghost there shall be thunderings and 
lightnings for the space of many hours, and the earth shall shake and tremble; and 
the rocks which are upon the face of this earth, which are both above the earth and 
beneath, which ye know at this time are solid, or the more part of it is one solid 
mass, shall be broken up;

Yea, they shall be rent in twain, and shall ever after be found in seams and in 
cracks, and in broken fragments upon the face of the whole earth, yea, both above 
the earth and beneath.

According to verse 20, did the darkness begin only from the moment he died or did
it also include the entire part of the day that preceded the crucifixion? Did all 
of the western hemisphere or just the Nephite land endure the three days of darkness?

I can understand the temple veil being torn in twain in Jerusalem, but what is meant
by verse 22 when it says the rocks would be rent in twain and shall ever be found in
seams and cracks?

RE: 20, it doesn't say, but the temporal and spatial references are indicated by such phrases as "unto you", "this earth", "this land", etc. But is does specify, "in that day that he shall suffer death [the signs will occur] ...from the time that he shall suffer death..."

RE:22, I have seen broken rocks in the seams of hills that appear to have collapsed together or collapsed cenotes and caves and in the cracks within canyons, barrancas, etc., some new and some old, created by earthquakes, floods, rains, etc.

Edited September 21, 2023 by CV75

[InCognitus]

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

From verses 20-22.

But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, 
in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give 
his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon 
the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space 
of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead.

Yea, at the time that he shall yield up the ghost there shall be thunderings and 
lightnings for the space of many hours, and the earth shall shake and tremble; and 
the rocks which are upon the face of this earth, which are both above the earth and 
beneath, which ye know at this time are solid, or the more part of it is one solid 
mass, shall be broken up;

Yea, they shall be rent in twain, and shall ever after be found in seams and in 
cracks, and in broken fragments upon the face of the whole earth, yea, both above 
the earth and beneath.

According to verse 20, did the darkness begin only from the moment he died or did
it also include the entire part of the day that preceded the crucifixion? Did all 
of the western hemisphere or just the Nephite land endure the three days of darkness?

The beginning time specified for the period of darkness is bolded in the quote above:  "even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of three days".  Helaman 14 is a prophesy of the events that actually took place as depicted in 3 Nephi 8:5-23.  Verses 19 and 20 say:

"And it came to pass that when the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the storm, and the tempest, and the quakings of the earth did cease—for behold, they did last for about the space of three hours; and it was said by some that the time was greater; nevertheless, all these great and terrible things were done in about the space of three hours—and then behold, there was darkness upon the face of the land.  And it came to pass that there was thick darkness upon all the face of the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof who had not fallen could feel the vapor of darkness"  (3 Nephi 8:19–20)

So basically, there was a huge earthquake and then the darkness came after that.  These conditions are common when there is a violent volcanic eruption:

[tagriffy]

8 hours ago, telnetd said:

Did all of the western hemisphere or just the Nephite land endure the three days of darkness?

The answer to this question will depend on what geographic model one subscribes to. If you hold to a hemispheric model, then the western hemisphere and Nephite land is for all practical purposes one and the same. If you hold to a limited geographic model, then the answer becomes anyone's guess. The Book of Mormon never mentions any land outside the sphere of influence of the peoples it describes, so no answer can be given vis a vis a limited geographic model.

[telnetd]

On 9/21/2023 at 6:37 PM, InCognitus said:

So basically, there was a huge earthquake and then the darkness came after that.  These conditions are common when there is a violent volcanic eruption:

I see a similar description of Helaman 14:20-22 in 1 Nephi 12:4.

"And it came to pass that I saw a mist of darkness on the face of the land of promise; 
and I saw lightnings, and I heard thunderings, and earthquakes, and all manner of 
tumultuous noises; and I saw the earth and the rocks, that they rent; and I saw mountains 
tumbling into pieces; and I saw the plains of the earth, that they were broken up; and I 
saw many cities that they were sunk; and I saw many that they were burned with fire; and 
I saw many that did tumble to the earth, because of the quaking thereof".

I didn't see a mention of one great earthquake but rather earthquakes. The number of cities 
destroyed amounts to 16 if I count correctly in 3 Nephi chapters 8 and 9.

How large of an area is the land of promise where all of these events are said to have
occurred?  Is this one super volcano or multiple volcanoes spread across all the land
of promise?

Does the description of "mountains tumbling into pieces" and "plains of the earth being
broken up" indicate that afterwards the land of promise was basically flat (no mountains,
no valleys)?

[InCognitus]

56 minutes ago, telnetd said:

I didn't see a mention of one great earthquake but rather earthquakes. The number of cities 
destroyed amounts to 16 if I count correctly in 3 Nephi chapters 8 and 9.

A series of earthquakes that shook the entire region is an accurate description.  By saying "huge earthquake" I wasn't trying to limit it to a single earthquake.  3 Nephi 10:9 says that the "dreadful groanings" and "tumultuous noises" lasted as long as three days.  This is not uncommon with volcanic eruptions.

58 minutes ago, telnetd said:

How large of an area is the land of promise where all of these events are said to have
occurred?  Is this one super volcano or multiple volcanoes spread across all the land
of promise?

Several studies have provided Book of Mormon land size approximations based on travel times described in the text (but as John E. Clark explained, judging distances based on travel times is problematic, since in his personal experience with travel times it depends on if his dad was driving or if his mom was driving - see page 16 of Revisiting "A Key for Evaluating Book of Mormon Geographies" ).  

One study provides these distances as illustrated in this map, as proposed by John W. Welch and Greg Welch:

As for how many, Jerry D. Grover, Jr. has documented as many as six volcanos that were active in the first century AD in the central Mexico and Guatemala regions (see pages 32-49 of Geology of the Book of Mormon).

58 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Does the description of "mountains tumbling into pieces" and "plains of the earth being
broken up" indicate that afterwards the land of promise was basically flat (no mountains,
no valleys)?

No.  It just means that what was there before was changed drastically.  

[JAHS]

Interesting that in Luke 23 it says:

44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the amidst.

So in other words it was dark for only 3 hours in Jerusalem but three days in the book of Mormon land.

Interesting to note that the thunderings, lightenings and earthquakes lasted for exactly the same length of time(3 hours) in the Nephite land as the darkness did in Jerusalem (3 Nephi: 8: 19).
It's possible the thunderings, earthquakes, etc. in the Nephite land may have been caused by volcanoes.
The 3 day conditions described in 3 Nephi chapter 8 sounds like what one would expect from erupting volcanos darkening the air with vapor, ash, and smoke.
This is also evident in 3 Nephi 10:9

"And it came to pass that thus did the three days pass away. And it was in the morning, and the darkness dispersed from off the face of the land, and the earth did cease to tremble, and the rocks did cease to rend, and the dreadful groanings did cease, and all the tumultuous noises did pass away." (3 Nep 10:9)

The darkness dispersing sounds like something is clearing itself out of the air (eg. ash, smoke, etc.)
Perhaps there were no volcanos going off in Jerusalem.

[mfbukowski]

Nevermind 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by mfbukowski

[telnetd]

On 9/23/2023 at 5:21 PM, JAHS said:

The 3 day conditions described in 3 Nephi chapter 8 sounds like what one would expect from erupting volcanos darkening the air with vapor, ash, and smoke.

3 days of darkness where?

[telnetd]

On 9/23/2023 at 4:34 PM, InCognitus said:

As for how many, Jerry D. Grover, Jr. has documented as many as six volcanos that were active in the first century AD in the central Mexico and Guatemala regions (see pages 32-49 of Geology of the Book of Mormon).

Thank you for that map.

Would central Mexico or Guatemala qualify as the land of promise mentioned in 1 Nephi 12:4?
 

On 9/23/2023 at 4:34 PM, InCognitus said:

On 9/23/2023 at 2:41 PM, telnetd said:

Does the description of "mountains tumbling into pieces" and "plains of the earth being
broken up" indicate that afterwards the land of promise was basically flat (no mountains,
no valleys)?

No.  It just means that what was there before was changed drastically. 

Before mountains, after pieces of rock you mean?

[JAHS]

33 minutes ago, telnetd said:

3 days of darkness where?

Not sure exactly where but in the land of the Nephites affecting several cities. (3 Nephi 8)

[InCognitus]

44 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Thank you for that map.

Would central Mexico or Guatemala qualify as the land of promise mentioned in 1 Nephi 12:4?

That's one of the areas that is being considered as a candidate for matching the geography.  Nothing is definitive, and the church has no official position on that.

46 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Before mountains, after pieces of rock you mean?

No.  I think you may be reading more into the specific language than is needed.  Remember, this is prophetic language in 1 Nephi 12.

"I saw mountains tumbling into pieces" may simply mean that there were huge rock slides down the mountains (which is common during earthquakes).  But given the likely volcanic activity, anything is possible.  When Mount St. Helens erupted in 1980, the top 1,300 feet of the mountain was blown off.

And "I saw the plains of the earth, that they were broken up" could just mean that fault lines opened up and the surface of the earth was rearranged.  

[tagriffy]

10 hours ago, telnetd said:

Would central Mexico or Guatemala qualify as the land of promise mentioned in 1 Nephi 12:4?

Good question! I have to think about it before I can give my opinion. As it so happens, I'm about to start a new read of the Book of Mormon, but it might take a couple days to answer the question as fully as I'd like.

[JAHS]

11 hours ago, telnetd said:

3 days of darkness where?

Here are some suggested maps.

Book of Mormon Geography