The dragon pursued the woman (Revelation 12:13)

[theplains]

"And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman 
who had given birth to the male child."

According to the Joseph Smith Translation of Revelation 12:7, the woman is the church of
God.

"And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was 
the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of 
our God and his Christ" (JST)

After Satan was thrown down to the earth, when did he first pursue the woman (the church of 
God as the JST identifies her)?

Edited September 12, 2023 by theplains

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, theplains said:

After Satan was thrown down to the earth, when did he first pursue the woman (the church of 
God as the JST identifies her)?

Is there a time that he hasn't? 

[Pyreaux]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

After Satan was thrown down to the earth, when did he first pursue the woman (the church of 
God as the JST identifies her)?

... I'm not sure you are ready; When was Jesus, the man-child born here? When was the Motherly Goddess/Asherah figure, the Sun, Moon, and Stars exiled from Jerusalem?

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

"And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman 
who had given birth to the male child."

According to the Joseph Smith Translation of Revelation 12:7, the woman is the church of
God.

"And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was 
the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of 
our God and his Christ" (JST)

After Satan was thrown down to the earth, when did he first pursue the woman (the church of 
God as the JST identifies her)?

I answered this exact same question from you in this post here.  Repeating what I said previously:

Jesus said he saw Satan cast down to the earth before John ever wrote Revelation (likely in the beginning - see Luke 10:18).  From John's perspective, Satan began persecuting "the woman" immediately after Jesus was born, but Satan has been making war with God's people since the beginning.  Revelation chapter 12 depicts the woman going into the wilderness multiple times with Satan (the dragon or serpent) going after her to persecute her multiple times. 

Verse 4 says that the dragon stood before the woman which was about to be delivered to devour her child as soon as it was born, and verse 6 says the woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her.

Then verses 7 through 10 talks about the war in heaven and Satan being cast out down to earth (that's the flashback), and how Satan is "the accuser of our brethren", and verse 11 explains that those saints overcame him by the blood of the Lamb.

Verse 12 pronounces woes to the inhabitants of the earth, because the devil was cast down to earth.

And verse 13 depicts the dragon persecuting the woman after she brought forth the man child, and this goes with verse 4 which says that the dragon was there before she was to be delivered.  

And verse 14 depicts the woman going into the wilderness again (a repeat of what it says in verse 4).

And verses 15-17 depict the persecution of the saints of God by the dragon, with the dragon making "war with the remnant of her seed".  There is a "remnant" left, but they become martyrs as John said earlier in Revelation.

So it's not a chronological depiction of events in this chapter, since it repeats events to provide information about why the saints of God were persecuted and put to death after the time of John.

[Freedom]

On 9/12/2023 at 3:16 PM, InCognitus said:

I answered this exact same question from you in this post here.  Repeating what I said previously:

Jesus said he saw Satan cast down to the earth before John ever wrote Revelation (likely in the beginning - see Luke 10:18).  From John's perspective, Satan began persecuting "the woman" immediately after Jesus was born, but Satan has been making war with God's people since the beginning.  Revelation chapter 12 depicts the woman going into the wilderness multiple times with Satan (the dragon or serpent) going after her to persecute her multiple times. 

Verse 4 says that the dragon stood before the woman which was about to be delivered to devour her child as soon as it was born, and verse 6 says the woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her.

Then verses 7 through 10 talks about the war in heaven and Satan being cast out down to earth (that's the flashback), and how Satan is "the accuser of our brethren", and verse 11 explains that those saints overcame him by the blood of the Lamb.

Verse 12 pronounces woes to the inhabitants of the earth, because the devil was cast down to earth.

And verse 13 depicts the dragon persecuting the woman after she brought forth the man child, and this goes with verse 4 which says that the dragon was there before she was to be delivered.  

And verse 14 depicts the woman going into the wilderness again (a repeat of what it says in verse 4).

And verses 15-17 depict the persecution of the saints of God by the dragon, with the dragon making "war with the remnant of her seed".  There is a "remnant" left, but they become martyrs as John said earlier in Revelation.

So it's not a chronological depiction of events in this chapter, since it repeats events to provide information about why the saints of God were persecuted and put to death after the time of John.

one of the challenges of a modern reader who expects expository writing when what we have is apocalyptic writing which is concerned with types and shadows than tangible timelines, events, and things. 

[theplains]

On 9/12/2023 at 6:16 PM, InCognitus said:

From John's perspective, Satan began persecuting "the woman" immediately after Jesus was born, but Satan has been making war with God's people since the beginning.  Revelation chapter 12 depicts the woman going into the wilderness multiple times with Satan (the dragon or serpent) going after her to persecute her multiple times. 

How does verse 1 (“clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a 
crown of twelve stars”) identify the woman as the church like the JST says?

If the woman is the church, why would Satan not be persecuting the church before Jesus 
was born?

How do you interpret verse 6 (“…and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a 
place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days”)?

Where does Revelation 12 indicate the woman went into the wilderness multiple times?  
Does Revelation 12:6 (1,260 days) and 12:14 (time, times, and half a time) represent two 
events or the same event? 

[CV75]

On 9/12/2023 at 3:12 PM, theplains said:

"And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman 
who had given birth to the male child."

According to the Joseph Smith Translation of Revelation 12:7, the woman is the church of
God.

"And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was 
the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of 
our God and his Christ" (JST)

After Satan was thrown down to the earth, when did he first pursue the woman (the church of 
God as the JST identifies her)?

The symbolism conveys the doctrine that the church prepares the world for the millennial reign of Christ. The "throw down," "pursuit" and "preparation" are dynamics that occur* in pre-mortality (the war in heaven), Eden (the Fall and covenant of Redemption), mortality (the war continues). I think the phrase, "time, times and half a time" indicates these dynamics play out periodically, with their final cycle to play out according to a predetermined timetable, the specifics of which should be revealed as needed according to the signs.

*ETA: also reasonably includes the post-millennial period (final battle between Gog and Magog) before the Church of the Firstborn on the celestial Earth is permanently realized.

Edited September 14, 2023 by CV75

[InCognitus]

15 hours ago, theplains said:

How does verse 1 (“clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a 
crown of twelve stars”) identify the woman as the church like the JST says?

Israel in the Old Testament represents the people of God.  Israel is portrayed as a “woman” several times in the Old Testament (Isaiah 54:1-6, Jeremiah 4:31, Micah 4:9-10, for example) and sometimes (as those same verses show) even as a woman in labor.  And Israel in Old Testament times, and the church in New Testament times, are portrayed as God’s bride, or the bride of Christ (a woman).  The people of God during John’s time were found in the church of God, so it’s no wonder that the “woman” of Revelation 12 is the church of God.  The crown represents a symbol of victory for overcoming the world, and the twelve stars the twelve apostles (or perhaps even the twelve tribes of Israel).  Being clothed with the sun can be a representation of her purity and the brilliance of her countenance, even celestial glory.  The moon under her feet would be the reflected light from her brilliance.  

15 hours ago, theplains said:

If the woman is the church, why would Satan not be persecuting the church before Jesus 
was born?

As I said in my post above, Satan has been making war with God’s people since the beginning.  But with the coming of the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer, Satan knew he needed to act quickly to try to disrupt God’s plan of salvation and to try to destroy all those who take upon them his name.  Verse 4 says (in the KJV) that Satan (the dragon) “stood” before the woman which was ready to be delivered.  The delivery, of course, is of the kingdom of God and his Christ, and Satan has been anticipating its coming and has positioned himself to try to thwart God’s kingdom since the beginning.

15 hours ago, theplains said:

How do you interpret verse 6 (“…and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a 
place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days”)?

The woman fleeing into the wilderness for a long period of time is for her to go into hiding and be protected by God during that time.  You’ll notice that verse 5 says that the child was caught up to God and to his throne, so it wasn’t the time for God’s kingdom to be implemented in its fulness.  It was hidden away and protected for a period of time.

The restoration of the gospel was when the woman came out of the wilderness once again.  As it says in Doctrine and Covenants 33:5:  “And verily, verily, I say unto you, that this church have I established and called forth out of the wilderness.”  (also in 5:14, and 109:73).  

15 hours ago, theplains said:

Where does Revelation 12 indicate the woman went into the wilderness multiple times?  
Does Revelation 12:6 (1,260 days) and 12:14 (time, times, and half a time) represent two 
events or the same event? 

When I said Revelation 12 depicts the woman going into the wilderness multiple times, I was referring to the fact that it describes the woman going into the wilderness in more than just one place in the chapter (in verses 6 and 14), and I did not mean that there was more than one time that the woman went into the wilderness (that was bad wording on my part).   Both verses describe the same event but in different ways.  

[Pyreaux]

The war in heaven is an ancient story of a divine mother of the First Born Son of God and the Satanic figure who refuses to bow to him and is cast out for it (Rev 12:7-9; Heb 1). The woman in Revelations is clearly an inhuman "woman", especially since in the apocalyptic code: a human figure = divine being, furthermore she possessed robes of the sun and wings by which she fled into to exile after giving birth to the "man child" (apocalyptic code: a divine child), recognized as Christ (Rev 12:1-6). This mother of Christ figure is classically identified as Mary, while the Bride of the Lamb is Christ's church, or the new city of Jerusalem as a collective whole. These two are actually the same inhuman woman, when the Whore of Babylon is burned, the exiled woman returns from exile dressed as a royal bride in her priestly linen robes to be the "bride of the lamb", portrayed as a representation of the people of the new city of God (Rev 21:9-14),

These individual interpretations are all correct, because it is in fact the Holy Spirit of Wisdom it is describing, Wisdom manifested itself in each of these things. She came upon Mary to have her conceive, she is the agent that aids in miraculous births of Israelite women, including the birth of John the Baptist and Jesus the Christ, "Wisdom is justified of Her children" (Matthew 11:19). Wisdom is the "Holy Spirit" (Wisdom of Solomon 9:17; Prov 1:2; 8). The Temple is Wisdom's house, her rest (Prov 9:1), she found her rest in Jerusalem (Ben Sira 24:7) and lost her rest when the Temple of Solomon was destroyed (1 Enoch 42). After the Temple of Solomon was brought down, she was in exile. Ezra returned from Babylon, rebuilt the temple, but a Babylonian spirit thereafter rested there, drunk with the blood of prophets the Jews killed there, she sat on the Temple's Edenic "many waters", adorned in gold and precious stones (the temple interior walls), the spirit in the temple of Jerusalem, and she would be burned by Rome, the red dragon (Rev 17:1-5). The Spirit of Wisdom is the city and the original spirit of the temple.

Zion, the City of God, which is described as a woman (LXX, Zech 2:15; Isa 62:4-12; Jer 50:5; 4 Ezra 9f; Rev 21). The city of Jerusalem and the Land of Israel is thought to be an incarnation of the feminine Spirit of Wisdom, coined as 'Mother Zion'. After the fall of Jerusalem and Temple, Ezra is portrayed seeing a woman who was morning for having lost her son, when he calls to her to be mindful of the tragedy of "Zion the mother of us all" (4 Ezra 10:7) her face shines, she transfigures before him (4 Ezra 10:25) and the Archangel Uriel tells Ezra, "this woman whom you saw... is Zion" (4 Ezra 10:46) and explains that her "son" was born when Solomon built the temple. Zion's sons, the Davidic kings, were born in the temple (LXX, Ps 109:3).

Zion is the "mother" (LXX, Ps 87:4-5) of all those "born in her" (Ps 87:4-5), mother of the fruitful (Isa 62; Rev 21:9), the mother of the city and all those in the land (Isa 66:8; Jer 15:9; 2 Kg 19:21-28). As the holy patron of the city, her home is the temple (Prov 9:1) and her bed is the Holy of Holies (4 Ezra 9:38-10:24; Pesikta-Rabbati 26:7). The Rabbis say of the "Shekinah", that her house is the Temple, her rest, so one of the Jewish names for the Temple is the "bed chamber" (Talmud, b. Ta'anit 16a; Song of Songs Rabbah 1:66) or rather the resting place.

She acts as a guardian angel over the city, and also as a one that "bringest [mebasseret (H#1309) a heraldess]" (a feminine form of the masculine word for a herald, a "mebasser (H#1319)" such as in Isaiah 52:7) who brings good tidings to Zion (Isa 40:9). By this, the feminine spirit entity has become identified with the abstraction of being the city itself or it's people within it as a whole (Isa 54:1). When the Lord is in the city, euphemisms are created where the city is his fiancé, while at other times a type of being his mother (Zeph 3:11-17; Zech 2:10-11), and as a woman in labor (Isa 66:7).

Like the "sons of God", the male angel patron gods of the nations, there are female patrons. The Holy Spirit, the female patron of Israel is sometimes called the "virgin daughter", the "virgin daughter of Zion" (Isa 37:22; Lam 2:13), the "virgin of Israel" (Jer 18:13; Amos 5:2). Foreign lands each possessed a patron virgin spirit, the "virgin daughter of Egypt" (Jer 46:11), "virgin daughter of Sidon" (Isa 23:12), and the "virgin daughter of Babel" (Isa 47:1).

The Virgin Daughter of Zion sings when the Lord takes away judgment against her (Zeph 3:14-20) and the Lord renews her with love (Zeph 3:17). She, as though an entity, has a voice that "scorns" the king of Assyria (Isa 37:22) she wears beautiful "garments" (Isa 52:1), and precious stones (Isa 54:11-12), like the temple interior, like a royal bride, as a fertility agent, a virgin who conceives royal children, kings, and she will give birth to a son without labor pains (Isa 66:7). Micah depicts the daughter of Zion as a woman in labor, who then flees the city into the wilderness, but the Lord will rescue her and she will return (Mic 4:8-10; Jer 4:31), she will give birth to the great shepherd (Mic 5:2-4).

Edited September 18, 2023 by Pyreaux

[theplains]

On 9/15/2023 at 2:15 AM, InCognitus said:

When I said Revelation 12 depicts the woman going into the wilderness multiple times, I was referring to the fact that it describes the woman going into the wilderness in more than just one place in the chapter (in verses 6 and 14), and I did not mean that there was more than one time that the woman went into the wilderness (that was bad wording on my part).   Both verses describe the same event but in different ways.

Revelation 12:13 says, "And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, 
he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child." 

What is the time frame of when the dragon is thrown down to the earth and the time frame 
of when he pursues the woman who had just given birth to the male child?

For the nourishment of the woman in the wilderness, does the 1,260 days signify a literal 
amount of time? If yes, what is it and when did the count down start?

[theplains]

On 9/14/2023 at 4:54 PM, CV75 said:

The symbolism conveys the doctrine that the church prepares the world for the millennial reign of Christ. The "throw down," "pursuit" and "preparation" are dynamics that occur* in pre-mortality (the war in heaven), Eden (the Fall and covenant of Redemption), mortality (the war continues). I think the phrase, "time, times and half a time" indicates these dynamics play out periodically, with their final cycle to play out according to a predetermined timetable, the specifics of which should be revealed as needed according to the signs.

*ETA: also reasonably includes the post-millennial period (final battle between Gog and Magog) before the Church of the Firstborn on the celestial Earth is permanently realized.

Did the dragon pursue the woman (the church) in pre-mortality after Jesus was born there as 
the first spirit child of heavenly parents?

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Revelation 12:13 says, "And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, 
he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child." 

What is the time frame of when the dragon is thrown down to the earth and the time frame 
of when he pursues the woman who had just given birth to the male child?

As I said above, Satan has been making war with God’s people since the beginning.  You reference verse 13, but notice that verse 4 also says that the dragon was cast down to earth, and his "tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven".  And in that verse it says "the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."  He has been ready and waiting for the delivery since the time the first man was upon the earth.  This is also why it's impossible to put a verse by verse chronology in chapter 12 of Revelation (apocalyptic literature doesn't generally work that way), because even verses 9 and 12 says that the dragon was cast down to earth, and his angels were cast out with him.  It's a repetition of events to explain why the saints of God (in and after John's time) were being persecuted to their deaths (as John said, "it is the last time" - 1 John 2:18).

1 hour ago, theplains said:

For the nourishment of the woman in the wilderness, does the 1,260 days signify a literal 
amount of time? If yes, what is it and when did the count down start?

It's not a literal amount of time.  The JST renders this verse as "years" instead of days, which I would say is not literal as well.  It just means the church fled into the protection of the wilderness for a long period of time.

Edited September 19, 2023 by InCognitus

[Pyreaux]

The 1,260 days of the dragon’s pursuit of the woman (Rev. 11:2, years in the JST), seems to indicate that this beast has at least a 1,200 year long history of wreaking havoc with the children of God on the earth during a time of deep distress. Say @theplains, are you a JW? Do you think Satan fell during WWII or something like that?

[The Nehor]

16 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

The 1,260 days of the dragon’s pursuit of the woman (Rev. 11:2, years in the JST), seems to indicate that this beast has at least a 1,200 year long history of wreaking havoc with the children of God on the earth during a time of deep distress. Say @theplains, are you a JW? Do you think Satan fell during WWII or something like that?

It was 1914 that many JWs now claim was when Satan was cast down. It was an attempt to salvage and justify yet another failed Second Coming date. They retroactively decided it triggered the First World War.

Satan being cast out of heaven at the end is also a thing in some of the American End-times churches. A belief that Satan was still allowed to enter heaven and accuse the Saints though Satan didn’t dwell in heaven full time.

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

It was 1914 that many JWs now claim was when Satan was cast down. It was an attempt to salvage and justify yet another failed Second Coming date. They retroactively decided it triggered the First World War.

Satan being cast out of heaven at the end is also a thing in some of the American End-times churches. A belief that Satan was still allowed to enter heaven and accuse the Saints though Satan didn’t dwell in heaven full time.

I guess a few other Protestants assume Satan's fall was either a contemporary event or future event, too? A departure from the classic Catholic narrative that Satan fell in the ancient past, via St Jerome. In my understanding of apocalyptic ascension tradition that John was invited in the heavenly Holy of Holies, he's seeing the backside of the parokhet (temple veil), it's from here, similar to other Jewish sources, John is seeing a panoramic of all history, past and future as one event.

[InCognitus]

31 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

I guess a few other Protestants assume Satan's fall was either a contemporary event or future event, too?

I have heard that view expressed by a few Protestants, believing that everything in the book of Revelation depicts end time events.  But Jesus seems to dispute the idea that the fall of Satan is a future event by declaring that he beheld him fall as a past event:  "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." (Luke 10:18)

[Pyreaux]

The modern Jews refute that Satan fell at all, claiming he's just God's agent, a prosecutor, and those saying he's evil is just a Christian invention they've superimposed on the Torah. It's an anti-angel myth/anti-Christian cover up.

Rahab, the Angel of the Sea, Leviathan, the Dragon and the Rebellion of the Waters

In the Canaanite myth of Ba'al, the lord god of Phoenicia, help make the cosmos habitable by fighting and killing "Yam", the sea dragon or Yam the primeval sea of "chaos". Yam was also called the Prince River, because sea and river was interchangeable (Canaanite Myth, Hebrew Epic, page 112-124 ).

Because the faiths weren't so dissimilar, Israelite Psalmists would take older Canaanite hymns and swap Ba'al's name with Yahweh's name, usually with regards to being as the king of the gods. And also like Ba'al there are signs in the psalms and other scriptures that Yahweh had defeated a sea dragon in a similar fashion in the past.

Genesis may account for this when it says "the sea [H#3220 Yam]" already existed "without form [tohu (H#8414), chaos]" that stood on the "void [vohu (H#922)]", the "darkness" of the "deep [tehom (H#8415) the abyss, ocean]", also known as a place of swallowing (Ecclesiastes 1:7). Fortunately, the "spirit [ruah (H#7307) feminine noun, wind/spirit]" fluttered or had power over it (Genesis 1:2) and by extension the dragons in it (Genesis 1:21).

After the first day, the light was separated from the darkness. On the second day, how the waters below were separated from the waters that formed the firmament (Gen 1:6). The waters is depicted as rebellious (Psalms 93:3) so the waters had to be rebuked so land would appear (Genesis 1:9; Nah 1:4) to keep it separated, the Lord set a boundary for the sea (Jer 5:22). Israelite poetry portrays the enemies of Israel as sea monsters and flood waters (Ps 69:1-4; 93:1-4). Which is strange for a land with little water, that isn't subject to flooding, to personify evil with water that Israel is endanger from. They are actually referring to an ancient enemy.

Job says the shades and the inhabitants of the water trembled in the abyss as the north stretched over the void, the waters were bound into thick clouds (the firmament) becoming as a veil to cover the face of the throne (Job 24:5-9). God marked out a circle between the day and the night (light and the darkness), and split the "proud" of the sea, so that that sea would stay still, thus the heavens were made pure by the "Spirit [Ruah]" and pierced the serpent (Job 26:10-13).

The rebel angel of Sea is named "Rahab" (Job 9:13). Rahab is also the dragon, the "Leviathan" (Job 41:1; Isa 22:1). The Lord drove back the sea and smashed the heads of the monsters in the waters (Ps 74:13). Rahab the Dragon was slain (Isa 27:1; 51:9; Ps 89:10), defeated (Isa 51:9) or tamed (Job 40:1, 45). The star-sons of God “sang for joy” to witness the sea defeated when foundations of the earth were laid the third day (Job 38:7) and bonds were set for the "waves" of the "proud" (Job 38:8-11).

Beliar the Prince of Darkness and the War in Heaven

Beliar the Prince of Darkness is a known satanic figure the Rabbis say existed before the creation of the world, and sinfully declared himself equal with God (Pesikta Rabbati 20:2; 53:2; Yalkut Re'uveni 1:19; Midrash Alphabetot 434), which some angels followed, ultimately leading to the "binding" of Beliar, the Prince of Darkness (Isaiah 24:22-23; Testament of Levi 18:12).

Genesis may elude to this event. It speaks of Day One as the separation of the light and the darkness (Gen 1:4). Other Bible passages describe a pre-existing light that came from a primordial darkness, that both were once one thing, and the light was created by separating them, "I formed [yotzor (H#3335)] light and create [borei (H#1254)] darkness" (Isa 45:7). This is moment is described as a purification of heaven before the foundation of world (1 Samuel 22:12; Psalms 18:9; Job 26:12-13).

Angel revolt that created "[nephilim (H#5303), fallen ones]" (Gen 6). There is an ongoing conflict between the "sons of light" (Luke 16:8 (1-13); John 12:36; Ephesians 5:8; 1 Thes 5:5; Mt 5:14-16; Thomas 50) as opposed to the "sons of Belair" (1 Samuel 1:16; 2:12; 2 Corinthians 6:14-15), or devil (Matthew 23:33; Luke 3:7; John 8:44; 12:34) or perdition (John 17:12; 2 Thes 2:3).

Daniel's The Sea Monsters and the Little Horn

There are rebel spiritual forces that remain in heaven, Psalms calls on the punishment of the "[elohim]" (Ps 58:1; Ps 82). Job portrays the Lord leading the "sons of God", a council full of malicious Holy Ones desiring to test mankind (Job 15:7; 1:6) whom seem doomed to be expulsed (Ps 82:7). Through breaking the covenant sets wild angels originally sealed in nature loose causing disaster and tyranny, so the original war repeats over and over.

Daniel draws upon the ancient story, but as it compared to four contemporary empires, because once again evil arose from the sea to oppress the people of God. This is the reason the kings of the rebellious nations are portrayed as sea monsters, is because their antecedents were originally sea monsters (Dan 7:17). An unnamed (sacred named?) warrior guardian angel of Israel, called the "son of man" (Dan 7:13), which is a title for Christ (Rev 1:13-15), fights four beasts that rise up out of "the great sea" that come against him (Dan 7:2-7). One is slain (or defeated) while the others are allowed to live, but their power is taken from them (Dan 7:11-12).

The story is then repeated again, a "little horn" of a goat has set himself against the "host" and "stars" of heaven, and was eventually "cast down" (Dan 8:9-11). While the Angel of Israel (the Lord) fights a sea monster, the prince of Persia, "Michael, one of the chief princes," as one of the archangels, comes to the Lord's aid (Dan 10:5-6).

John the Revelator seems to repeat Daniel's story, the archangel "Michael" comes to the “man-child's” aid in the defeat of a "dragon" the "old serpent, called the devil and Satan" during the "war in heaven" (Rev 12:7-9). While portraying the future, the beasts rise out of the sea, Christ returns simply called the "Word" as he possesses a secret name, and the leader of an angel army against Satan (Rev 19:12-13).

Other Sources

Apocryphal texts describe the war, the Odes of Solomon says that Christ had "descend[ed] from on high" and defeated "the dragon with seven-heads" (Odes of Solomon 22:1, 5). Nag Hammadi texts speak of an evil archon saying "I am God" (HA CG:II:4:86, 94; 5:10; V:4:56). The Quran says Satan, "Iblis", refused to bow (Quran 7:11) as it does in Ethiopian texts also (Life of Adam and Eve 12: 13:2-3; 14:1-3). These works show a theme not confined to a specific tradition, that evil on earth today originates from an angelic revolt long ago

2 Enoch accounts, out of fire, God "created the ranks of bodiless armies..." however, "one from the order of the archangels deviated together with the division the was under his authority. He thought up the impossible idea, the he might place his throne higher than the clouds... And I hurled him out of the heights, together with his angels, he was flying around in the air, ceaselessly above the Bottomless. And thus I created the entire heavens. And the third day came" (2 En 29:3-6).

In the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Melchizedek text fragments discovered in 1956, where Melchizedek appears to be an angelic-elohim judge of a council of elohim-gods, sent before the last judgment to atone for "the sons of (light), (the l)ot of Mel(ch)izedek" and to judge "the sons of darkness" free his people from "Belial and his angels" (11Q13). In the Testament of Amram, there is a warrior called the "Prince of Light", a great Watcher and his enemy is the "Prince of Darkness" (4Q'Amram), but other fragments of 4Q also calls the two "Melchizedek" (king of righteousness) and "Melchiresa" (king of evil) (4Q 286-287, 280-282).

King Melchizedek seems to be an pre-incarnate angelic member of the angelic council who plays a role in the judgment, but its also as likely that this is actually Yahweh, using the title "Melchizedek" (king of righteousness). “[Tzedek]” was an Epitaph for the Messiah, the texts also identify "Righteousness [Tzedek]" (Isaiah 51:4-5) to be a messianic title (1QIsaiah), so is "Righteous One" (Acts 3:14; 7:52; 22:14; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 John 2:1; 1 Enoch 38:2; 53:6).

The War Scroll accounts a heavenly war, "the Prince of Light thou hast appointed from ancient times to come to our support... and all the spirits of truth as under his domain." (1QM XIII). "All the children of light are ruled by the Prince of Light and walk in the ways of light, but the children of falsehood are ruled by the Angel of Darkness and walk in the ways of darkness." (1QS III).

Edited September 21, 2023 by Pyreaux

[CV75]

On 9/19/2023 at 4:13 PM, theplains said:

Did the dragon pursue the woman (the church) in pre-mortality after Jesus was born there as 
the first spirit child of heavenly parents?

Yes, in the sense that he fought against God, Michael and his angels, which can be construed as a church. We believe the point at which he commenced was the "council in heaven" and continues the war here. Related topics and scripture references can be found here: War in Heaven (churchofjesuschrist.org)

[theplains]

On 9/19/2023 at 5:48 PM, InCognitus said:

It's not a literal amount of time.  The JST renders this verse as "years" instead of days, which I would say is not literal as well.  It just means the church fled into the protection of the wilderness for a long period of time

Thanks.  I had not noticed swap for "years".

[theplains]

On 9/20/2023 at 9:05 PM, Pyreaux said:

The 1,260 days of the dragon’s pursuit of the woman (Rev. 11:2, years in the JST), seems to indicate that this beast has at least a 1,200 year long history of wreaking havoc with the children of God on the earth during a time of deep distress. Say @theplains, are you a JW? Do you think Satan fell during WWII or something like that?

Hi.  Not, I am not a JW. But I heard that they believe Jesus returned invisibly some time in 1914. Their
predicted date of 1975 was probably their last and most recent failed prophecy.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120111203220/http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/lifeeverlasting/1966_Life_Everlasting.pdf

"Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God".    The relevant parts are found on pages 26-30.

[theplains]

On 9/19/2023 at 5:48 PM, InCognitus said:

The JST renders this verse as "years" instead of days, which I would say is not literal as well.

In Doctrine and Covenants 77:6-7, do each of the 1,000 year periods equal 1,000 literal
years or do they equal 7 periods of unequal, indeterminate, very long lengths of time?

[CV75]

8 hours ago, theplains said:

In Doctrine and Covenants 77:6-7, do each of the 1,000 year periods equal 1,000 literal
years or do they equal 7 periods of unequal, indeterminate, very long lengths of time?

I think the plan of salvation was designed on an ideal 7,000-year timeframe of the temporal presentation of the eternal covenant, but that things had, have and will yet have to be adjusted along the way to work around the consequences of humankind's corruption of the perfect plan and covenant. This is strange testing ground, where human agency so often supersedes God's will (for the time being). But the original plan serves as the Lord’s reference point, and things will play out qualitatively as if they were quantitatively following these kinds of scriptures to the letter, for He has reconciled all deviations.

[InCognitus]

On 9/28/2023 at 9:31 AM, theplains said:

In Doctrine and Covenants 77:6-7, do each of the 1,000 year periods equal 1,000 literal
years or do they equal 7 periods of unequal, indeterminate, very long lengths of time?

I think the 1,000 year periods are not exact, but an indicator of a long span of time of similar duration.  It's not as if we're watching a calendar and a clock, and as soon as the clock reaches midnight at the end of an exact period of 6,000 years, we go to bed and wake up the next morning and find ourselves in the millennial reign of Christ.