Elder Ahmad S. Corbitt speaks at Braver Angels National Convention

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No, it is not the same logic used to persecute the Jews.

It’s the exact same logic. 

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This whole argument is Soviet style whataboutism propaganda. Doing a good job here Comrade!

Nah, I couldn’t possible be a Marxist, I’m a conservative.

But all those on the left are Marxists though, right? Especially the ones who outright admit it. And since we all know that Marxists have enslaved and killed hundreds of millions of people all Marxists should be punched in the face, right? Great logic isn’t it. 

 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No, probably shouldn’t.

Oh go ahead! YOLO!

[The Nehor]

28 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

It’s the exact same logic. 

No, it is not. You assume all viewpoints are equal and the abuser is the equal of the victim. That kind of absolute neutrality is morally bankrupt.

30 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

But all those on the left are Marxists though, right?

Getting people to believe this garbage was one of the greatest propaganda coups of my lifetime. It is not the first time it has happened.

”The communists are everywhere. They must be defeated at all costs. Any alliance with anyone who opposes them is justified no matter how criminal or toxic or violent they are.” - Common sentiment in 1930s Germany and Italy

And so many keep falling for it.

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Oh go ahead! YOLO!

I can never figure out if YOLO means you only live once so go nuts and do whatever or it means you only live once so you should carefully treasure it.

I have punched some fascists. I don’t feel bad about it. That’s pretty much it.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

”The communists are everywhere. They must be defeated at all costs. Any alliance with anyone who opposes them is justified no matter how criminal or toxic or violent they are.” - Common sentiment in 1930s Germany and Italy

And so many keep falling for it.

Yeah, sadly they do.

"The nazis and fascists are everywhere. They must be defeated at all costs. Any alliance with anyone who opposes them is justified no matter how criminal or toxic or violent they are.” - Common sentiment among the left in the 21st century United States and elsewhere

[SteveO]

6 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Yeah, sadly they do.

"The nazis and fascists are everywhere. They must be defeated at all costs. Any alliance with anyone who opposes them is justified no matter how criminal or toxic or violent they are.” - Common sentiment among the left in the 21st century United States and elsewhere

It’s been pointed out elsewhere, many times, that Nehor’s ideology is just the other side of the same coin he purports to hate.  

Mind you, I only say “ideology,” and not “actions,” because terminally online lefties have this strange habit of being simultaneously soft as baby food, and full of burning rage to commit violence they are physically incapable of, i.e. nobody believes he’s punched a nazi.

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Yeah, sadly they do.

"The nazis and fascists are everywhere. They must be defeated at all costs. Any alliance with anyone who opposes them is justified no matter how criminal or toxic or violent they are.” - Common sentiment among the left in the 21st century United States and elsewhere

Again, you are “both siding” everything as if all positions are morally equal. This is part of why fascists need punching by the way.

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, SteveO said:

It’s been pointed out elsewhere, many times, that Nehor’s ideology is just the other side of the same coin he purports to hate.  

Mind you, I only say “ideology,” and not “actions,” because terminally online lefties have this strange habit of being simultaneously soft as baby food, and full of burning rage to commit violence they are physically incapable of, i.e. nobody believes he’s punched a nazi.

All positions are equal. To oppose evil is to be just as evil.

From Umberto Eco’s list of traits of fascism:

“The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”

And the Left is simultaneously a bunch of weak interminably online weaklings when that is convenient to disparage or to flatter and also a dangerous gathering of Antifa supersoldiers poised to seize power when it is convenient to stoke anger and violence.

From the list again:

“By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”

 

Fascists really need more punching to bring them back to reality.

[CV75]

49 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I can never figure out if YOLO means you only live once so go nuts and do whatever or it means you only live once so you should carefully treasure it.

I have punched some fascists. I don’t feel bad about it. That’s pretty much it.

Details, please?

[Grug the Neanderthal]

18 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This is part of why fascists need punching by the way.

Yes, because of course anyone who would dare point out the hypocrisy in declaring that it's okay to punch anyone that one labels a nazi is of course a fascist who needs to be punched. Brilliant logic.  

[SteveO]

deleted

Edited July 9, 2023 by SteveO

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I have punched some fascists. I don’t feel bad about it. That’s pretty much it.

"I have punched some Jews. I don’t feel bad about it. That’s pretty much it." - Brown shirt following Kristallnacht

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

"I have punched some Jews. I don’t feel bad about it. That’s pretty much it." - Brown shirt following Kristallnacht

Yep, still equating victims being abused with wannabe oppressors getting pushback. Is this inability to see the distinction willful?

[The Nehor]

26 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Yes, because of course anyone who would dare point out the hypocrisy in declaring that it's okay to punch anyone that one labels a nazi is of course a fascist who needs to be punched. Brilliant logic.  

Poor reading comprehension, D-, see me after class.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

58 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

still equating victims being abused with wannabe oppressors getting pushback.

That’s exactly what the SA member said to the random German speaking out against the demonization and persecution of Jews by the National Socialists in 1930s Germany. 

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

That’s exactly what the SA member said to the random German speaking out against the demonization and persecution of Jews by the National Socialists in 1930s Germany. 

So because the oppressor can dishonestly use the language of being a victim the oppressor and the victim are the same?

You do realize you have to engage your brain to tell the difference right? Having your brain stuck on repeat saying that fascists can lie isn’t some brilliant insight that means victims should shut up and take it.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

So because the oppressor can dishonestly use the language of being a victim the oppressor and the victim are the same?

Who decides what is honest and what isn't? Who decides which group is evil and which group isn't? That's the problem with your mentality of it being justifiable to punch anyone who we consider to be the oppressor or evil.

Marxists have killed and enslaved millions. Way more than the nazis ever did. The founders of BLM are Marxists. Do you advocate for punching all BLM members and those who support them? How about the many individuals on the left who hold Marxist views or openly claim to be Marxists? Should we punch them all for being Marxists? 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Marxists have killed and enslaved millions. Way more than the nazis ever did. The founders of BLM are Marxists. Do you advocate for punching all BLM members and those who support them? How about the many individuals on the left who hold Marxist views or openly claim to be Marxists? Should we punch them all for being Marxists? 

And more whataboutism. Is your brain stuck in a loop?

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Who decides what is honest and what isn't? Who decides which group is evil and which group isn't? That's the problem with your mentality of it being justifiable to punch anyone who we consider to be the oppressor or evil.

You keep generalizing. Focus!

I said we should punch fascists. Not anyone who is evil. Fascists.

Fascists are pretty easy to identify. If you think it is impossible to identify fascists then I don’t know what to say. Maybe I am too harsh here though. You inaccurately label huge swathes of the population as being Marxists so maybe accurate categorization is outside your skillset.

I am curious though. Are you this paralyzed about the difference between good and evil in the rest of your life and do you just throw up your arms and say you can’t figure it out so how can you ever know?

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Fascists are pretty easy to identify.

I’m sure you think so, but I have seen the “nazi” and “fascist” labels thrown around and misapplied many times by the left. In fact the majority of the time I have seen these labels used by the left they have been misapplied. 

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You inaccurately label huge swathes of the population as being Marxists

No, I sure didn’t. Simply applying the same logic you are to show why your insistence that it’s right to punch “nazis” and “fascists" is bonkers.

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I’m sure you think so, but I have seen the “nazi” and “fascist” labels thrown around and misapplied many times by the left. In fact the majority of the time I have seen these labels used by the left they have been misapplied. 

I am not the nebulous Left your propagandist screams about.

6 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

No, I sure didn’t. Simply applying the same logic you are to show why your insistence that it’s right to punch “nazis” and “fascists" is bonkers.

No, I don’t think you understand the logic well enough based on your inane comparisons.

Sometimes you just gotta punch people. It is what it is. I find it sad that in the United States of America that defeated the last incarnation of fascism we now have people who are squeamish about punching fascists. Did we learn nothing?

[Grug the Neanderthal]

50 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am not the nebulous Left your propagandist screams about.

The insistence that it’s okay to punch a Nazi is much more prominent on the left than the right. I have no idea which "propagandist" of mine you are referring to. From your comments on this thread and all over this board its obvious that you are on the left politically. 

But that’s really not the point, many people on the left like to mislabel those on the right as fascists and Nazis. Happens all the time. And even when the Nazi label is more or less justified based on the persons rhetoric, the idea that it’s okay to punch someone over speech one finds offensive is very problematic. 

If we apply that same standard that it’s cool to punch a Nazi equally, then it’s totally cool to punch Marxists, right? Especially those who self identify as Marxists, express Marxist views, or use Marxists symbols, right?

50 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Sometimes you just gotta punch people. It is what it is. I find it sad that in the United States of America that defeated the last incarnation of fascism we now have people who are squeamish about punching fascists. Did we learn nothing?

"Sometimes you just gotta punch people. It is what it is. I find it sad that in the United States of America that fought long and hard to stop the spread of marxism we now have people who are squeamish about punching Marxists . Did we learn nothing?"

Edited July 10, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[CV75]

The following was read in our sacrament meeting yesterday: 

To: General Authorities and the following leaders in the United States: Area Seventies; Stake, Mission, District, and Temple Presidencies; Bishoprics and Branch Presidencies

(To be read in sacrament meeting)

Political Participation, Voting, and the Political Neutrality of the Church

Dear Brothers and Sisters:

Citizens of the United States have the privilege and duty of electing officeholders and influencing public policy. Participation in the political process affects their communities and nation today and in the future. We urge Latter-day Saints to be active citizens by registering, exercising their right to vote, and engaging in civic affairs, always demonstrating Christlike love and civility in political discourse.

We urge you to spend the time needed to become informed about the issues and candidates you will be considering. Some principles compatible with the gospel may be found in various political parties, and members should seek candidates who best embody those principles. Members should also study candidates carefully and vote for those who have demonstrated integrity, compassion, and service to others, regardless of party affiliation. Merely voting a straight ticket or voting based on “tradition” without careful study of candidates and their positions on important issues is a threat to democracy and inconsistent with revealed standards (see Doctrine and Covenants 98:10). Information on candidates is available through the internet. debates, and other sources.

While the Church affirms its institutional neutrality regarding political parties and issues, it may occasionally post information about particular issues that directly affect the mission, teachings, or operations of the Church or that Church leaders believe are essential to preserving democracy or the essential functioning of the United States Constitution.

Political choices and affiliations should not be the subject of any teaching or advocating in Church settings. Leaders ensure that Church meetings focus on our Heavenly Father, our Savior, and the gospel.

For more information, see newsroom.ChurchofJesusChrist.org and “General Handbook: Serving in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,” 38.8.30.

Sincerely yours,

Russell M. Nelson

Dallin H. Oaks

Henry B. Eyring

The First Presidency

 

[Calm]

That is interesting.  It came out June 1.  I wonder why the delay (I hear it has been read out in many, but no appearance in others.)

https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders/2023/6/6/23751117/first-presidency-letter-emphasizes-participation-in-elections-reaffirms-political-neutrality

Edited July 10, 2023 by Calm

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

That is interesting.  It came out June 1.  I wonder why the delay (I hear it has been read out in many, but no appearance in others.)

https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders/2023/6/6/23751117/first-presidency-letter-emphasizes-participation-in-elections-reaffirms-political-neutrality

Probably just internal coordination, organization skills, etc. I see some overlap with Elder Corbitt's comments, material on the Braver Angels website, etc.

This is why I sometimes ask for details and specifics when posters make general claims on how they apply methods I disagree with within a partisan context.

[Damien the Leper]

On 7/6/2023 at 3:43 PM, bluebell said:

Have there been studies on it?  This isn't a formal CFR, but can you share the references for the evidence you are talking about?  That would be interesting to look at.

My personal experience as a Socialist has been pretty bad. Because of the false flag propaganda instituted during the Cold War, the majority of my right wing (Republican) and center-right (Democrat) leaning family members have deemed me traitorous or anti-American. The militancy with which they have "golden calf"-ed this country, the anthem, the flag and capitalism has placed a clear barrier between us. They often employ poorly used rhetoric such as the US being "God's country" and other Christian Nationalist rhetoric that is pervasive in modern society.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Damien the Leper