The Moral Hazard of Institutions and What We Can Do

[Teancum]

On 5/21/2023 at 11:49 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

By the way, without religion, what other method could we use, reliably, to determine what, exactly, is "good" and "evil"?  How, exactly, do we determine what is good and what is evil?

There all all sorts of ways to determine such things.  Why does religion have the province on such things?  And which religion? Extreme Islam think suicide bombing is moral.  How does that work?  A lot of the morals, and what is good or evil predates Christianity and just comes from humans figuring things' out. If you need  some God to tell you right from wrong maybe you are immoral.

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

They’re all all sorts of ways to determine such things.  Why does religion have the province on such things?  And which religion? Extreme Islam think suicide bombing is moral.  How does that work?  A lot of the morals, and what is good or evil predates Christianity and just comes from humans figuring things' out. If you need  some God to tell you right from wrong maybe you are immoral.

It’s as likely as not that morality evolved as humans did. Cooperation, kindness, and prohibitions against things like murder all help maintain the species. 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Again, we’re talking about moral judgment. At least I am. Others may not be. 

Ok. So, Church leaders don't praise people for rejecting the Ten Commandments or other standards they teach concwrning moral judgement, for example. I thought that was a given. 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, CV75 said:

Ok. So, Church leaders don't praise people for rejecting the Ten Commandments or other standards they teach concwrning moral judgement, for example. I thought that was a given. 

This illustrates my point: you are equating obedience to priesthood leaders with obedience to defined moral principles and commandments from God. 

[Teancum]

On 5/21/2023 at 2:29 PM, Hamilton Porter said:

No organization can do absolutely no harm to anybody. That's impossible.

I agree.

 

On 5/21/2023 at 2:29 PM, Hamilton Porter said:

 

All I know is that Latter-day Saints are the most moral people in the world,

Umm no not really  How do you reach that conclusion?  In many ways I think LDS people are not all that moral. 

On 5/21/2023 at 2:29 PM, Hamilton Porter said:

 

and the money I donate is well-invested and isn't going to mansions for General Authorities.

So what?  Just because the GAs are n ot enriching themselves does not justify the amassing of huge wealth that the church as accomplished.

On 5/21/2023 at 2:29 PM, Hamilton Porter said:

Admittedly, I benefit professionally from my LDS contacts, but that's not the reason I pay tithing.

Ok

[Hamilton Porter]

2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Umm no not really  How do you reach that conclusion?  In many ways I think LDS people are not all that moral. 

Lots of non-LDS tell me. Furthermore, look at the numbers.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

This illustrates my point: you are equating obedience to priesthood leaders with obedience to defined moral principles and commandments from God. 

No, I'm not*. I'm confirming that Church leaders don't praise people for rejecting the Ten Commandments or other standards they teach concerning moral judgement (why would they?). I don't understand your equating praise with obedience in the first place, but to each their own.

* Obedience to a person is not observance of a moral principle or obedience to God, though God is very much a Person.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Lots of non-LDS tell me. Furthermore, look at the numbers.

Huh?

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Lots of non-LDS tell me. Furthermore, look at the numbers.

What "numbers" would those be?

"Lots of non-LDS tell [you]" is anecdotal.

I've dealt with a number of litigation cases involving members of the Church and I can assure you the behavior of many of those individuals was not exactly moral. If I followed your reasoning and applied it to my experiences, I would conclude members of the Church aren't particularly moral. That's one of the principal dangers of invoking personal anecdotal experiences to support a broad claim.

[Hamilton Porter]

23 minutes ago, ttribe said:

What "numbers" would those be?

"Lots of non-LDS tell [you]" is anecdotal.

I've dealt with a number of litigation cases involving members of the Church and I can assure you the behavior of many of those individuals was not exactly moral. If I followed your reasoning and applied it to my experiences, I would conclude members of the Church aren't particularly moral. That's one of the principal dangers of invoking personal anecdotal experiences to support a broad claim.

There are plenty of them. For example, LDS men live 10 years longer than white men on average, divorce rate is only 20% compared to 50% national average.

I've dated a girl who thought LDS men were hypocrites, left the Church, only to find out non-LDS men will tell her anything to get her into bed.

Every knows Latter-day Saints are generally successful and happy. That's what led Glenn Beck to join the Church.

I'm not saying LDS are inherently morally superior, but it's the Gospel that transforms people.

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

There are plenty of them. For example, LDS men live 10 years longer than white men on average, divorce rate is only 20% compared to 50% national average.

I've dated a girl who thought LDS men were hypocrites, left the Church, only to find out non-LDS men will tell her anything to get her into bed.

Every knows Latter-day Saints are generally successful and happy. That's what led Glenn Beck to join the Church.

I'm not saying LDS are inherently morally superior, but it's the Gospel that transforms people.

I would agree that a lot of the good things in my life come from some of the principles I learned from the church.  A lot of success and leadership skills I have come directly from my experiences as a Latter-day Saint.

[ttribe]

17 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

There are plenty of them. For example, LDS men live 10 years longer than white men on average, divorce rate is only 20% compared to 50% national average.

I've dated a girl who thought LDS men were hypocrites, left the Church, only to find out non-LDS men will tell her anything to get her into bed.

Every knows Latter-day Saints are generally successful and happy. That's what led Glenn Beck to join the Church.

I'm not saying LDS are inherently morally superior, but it's the Gospel that transforms people.

Not sure how you equate "living longer" with morality, but that divorce rate gap has been narrowing for quite a while.

As to the rest of your statements, they are once again anecdotal and counterexamples are numerous and at least as compelling.

[Hamilton Porter]

4 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Not sure how you equate "living longer" with morality, but that divorce rate gap has been narrowing for quite a while.

As to the rest of your statements, they are once again anecdotal and counterexamples are numerous and at least as compelling.

Living longer requires making right choices.

Not really anecdotal. Limited experimental variance, maybe.

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I would agree that a lot of the good things in my life come from some of the principles I learned from the church.  A lot of success and leadership skills I have come directly from my experiences as a Latter-day Saint.

Yep, I could say the same thing. It's important to recognize the good as well as the bad that we experienced. 

[MiserereNobis]

27 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Living longer requires making right choices.

1) Many people live shorter lives because of things outside of their control -- poverty, pollution, genetics, etc.

2) Your argument is circular. Living longer is a sign of morality because those who live longer are obviously moral.

It's quite frankly silly to use life expectancy as a measure of morality.

[MiserereNobis]

17 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

I'm not saying LDS are inherently morally superior, but it's the Gospel that transforms people.

But you are saying LDS people are morally superior because "the Gospel" (LDS religion) changes them into more moral people.

[Hamilton Porter]

12 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

1) Many people live shorter lives because of things outside of their control -- poverty, pollution, genetics, etc.

Right. That's why the UCLA study controlled for various factors, e.g. only compared white males.

12 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

2) Your argument is circular. Living longer is a sign of morality because those who live longer are obviously moral.

No they're not OBVIOUSLY more moral.  You have to make moral decisions about diet, exercise, and socializing.

[MiserereNobis]

1 minute ago, Hamilton Porter said:

No they're not OBVIOUSLY more moral.  You have to make moral decisions about diet, exercise, and socializing.

What makes decisions that lead to a longer life more moral?

[Hamilton Porter]

9 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

What makes decisions that lead to a longer life more moral?

It takes moral strength not to eat that cheeseburger.

[MiserereNobis]

4 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

It takes moral strength not to eat that cheeseburger.

Why is eating a cheeseburger immoral?

If the answer is "because it leads to a shorter lifespan" then your argument is circular, like I pointed out earlier.

[Hamilton Porter]

4 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Why is eating a cheeseburger immoral?

If the answer is "because it leads to a shorter lifespan" then your argument is circular, like I pointed out earlier.

Just kidding! Being healthy isn't moral. Go to the desert, become an ascetic, and torture your body.

[MiserereNobis]

37 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Go to the desert, become an ascetic

And fast for 40 days..?

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

And fast for 40 days..?

 

[Hamilton Porter]

25 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

And fast for 40 days..?

Are health and longevity desired goods? Or should we abolish medical schools? The Department of Health and Human Services?

If it's a desired good, then working towards obtaining it is moral.

Very straightforward.

Addendum: fasting is good for your health.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Hamilton Porter

[MiserereNobis]

20 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Are health and longevity desired goods? Or should we abolish medical schools? The Department of Health and Human Services?

If it's a desired good, then working towards obtaining it is moral.

Very straightforward.

Well, since you used life expectancy and health as evidence that LDS are more moral than others, I'll point out that the Catholic Church is the largest health care provider in the world. It seems by your metric the Catholic Church is more moral than the LDS Church. Agree?