The Moral Hazard of Institutions and What We Can Do

[Hamilton Porter]

12 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Well, since you used life expectancy and health as evidence that LDS are more moral than others, I'll point out that the Catholic Church is the largest health care provider in the world. It seems by your metric the Catholic Church is more moral than the LDS Church. Agree?

Sure, why not?

You guys get divorced and have abortions at the same rate as everyone else, though. I won't judge, since established religions usually have little effect on parishioner's lives.

[jkwilliams]

8 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Sure, why not?

You guys get divorced and have abortions at the same rate as everyone else, though. I won't judge, since established religions usually have little effect on parishioner's lives.

So, the LDS church has little effect on members’ lives? 😳

[MiserereNobis]

4 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

You guys get divorced and have abortions at the same rate as everyone else, though.

Only 25% of Catholics have been divorced.

Abortion is a little more complicated. It's basically partisan.

How about you drop the silly thing about LDS being more moral because of life expectancy and divorce rates?

[Hamilton Porter]

4 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Only 25% of Catholics have been divorced.

Abortion is a little more complicated. It's basically partisan.

How about you drop the silly thing about LDS being more moral because of life expectancy and divorce rates?

I think the Catholic church is great! Incubator of modern science, great repository of knowledge. If I were to go to school again, I'd love to go to one of your universities. Don't take what I say the wrong way.

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, Hamilton Porter said:

I think the Catholic church is great! Incubator of modern science, great repository of knowledge. If I were to go to school again, I'd love to go to one of your universities. Don't take what I say the wrong way.

Is there a right way to take it?

[smac97]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

So, the LDS church has little effect on members’ lives? 😳

The Church has, or can have, a tremendous effect, but only as much as the individual lets it do.

"We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world’s goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship."  D&C 134:10.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 24, 2023 by smac97

[ttribe]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

The Church has, or can have, a tremendous effect, but only as much as the individual lets it do.

"We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world’s goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship."  D&C 134:10.

Thanks,

-Smac

May I introduce to every damn defender of the church on Twitter? Near as I can tell, the Church is simply a conduit for their hatred of all people who think differently than them. Definitely not transformative in a good way.

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, ttribe said:

May I introduce to every damn defender of the church on Twitter? Near as I can tell, the Church is simply a conduit for their hatred of all people who think differently than them. Definitely not transformative in a good way.

We all have room to improve, it seems.  Including myself.

Thanks,

-Smac

[jkwilliams]

18 minutes ago, smac97 said:

The Church has, or can have, a tremendous effect, but only as much as the individual lets it do.

"We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world’s goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship."  D&C 134:10.

Thanks,

-Smac

I was responding to the idiotic statement that “established religions usually have little effect on parishioner's lives.”

[Teancum]

On 5/22/2023 at 10:51 AM, smac97 said:

If the controls, checks and balances, etc. in place are working, then they tend to eliminate or substantially mitigate the size/scope of "scandalous behavior."

We've come a long way since the spendthrift days of Elder Moyle.  I am glad Elder Tanner came along when he did.

Thanks,

-Smac

I do not  think there are financial scandals.

I do not think the LDS leaders are living high on the hog and putting loads of money into their pockets. In fact their pay is modest. They should be paid many times over what they get paid for running a large world wide church. 

I am impressed with ho the church has successfully accumulated wealth and am favorable of a rainy day fund at about 3x its annual operating costs.

I am impressed with the church's welfare efforts and all it does there.

I think fast offering assistance in brilliant and have no issue that it may mostly benefit members. They are as deserving as help as anyone else when they need it.

My two biggest complaints are lack of financial transparency and reporting.  And the massive amount of extra wealth the church has just sitting there. I think  both of these are moral issues. I understand how difficult it is to deploy large resources. And I do applaud what the church does to relieve suffering. The world is better off due to such things.  But the fact that putting more of that hundreds of billions to work (not all, maybe 5 to 10% a year of the invested assets, or the income off the invested assets) is hard is not an excuse. There are plenty of smart people that run the church, work for the church and that could be hired by the church to make this happen.

[Teancum]

On 5/22/2023 at 11:07 AM, smac97 said:

With respect, I think making an individual's "moral judgment" paramount can lead to all sorts of terrible things.  This is the philosophy of Korihor, as summarized in Alma 30:17 - "And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever a man did was no crime."

If my "moral judgment" is paramount, then I can adjudicate anything I do and like as "moral" and anything that opposes me, or that I don't like, as "immoral."  

I think it is far preferable to look for and adopt an moral framework that is independent of the individual, and then seek to improve and strengthen it.  This is, I think, well expressed in the counsel of Alma to his son, Corianton, in Alma 39:9 - "Now my son, I would that ye should repent and forsake your sins, and go no more after the lusts of your eyes, but cross yourself in all these things; for except ye do this ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. Oh, remember, and take it upon you, and cross yourself in these things."

And in Mosiah 3:19 - "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father."

“The purpose of the gospel is … to make bad men good and good men better, and to change human nature.”—President David O. McKay, in the film Every Member a Missionary, as quoted by Elder Franklin D. Richards in Conference Report, Oct. 1965

I have long appreciated the Restored Gospel for its exhortation that we do things that require us to rise above selfish desires and preferences, and to make real sacrifices.

Thanks,

-Smac

Ok. But if your moral framework is based on that others are telling you are morals, self proclaimed prophets and self proclaimed scripture, what if they are wrong.  Aren't you simply kicking your moral choices to someone else rather than yourself?

Edited May 25, 2023 by Teancum

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Okk. But if your moral framework is based on that others are telling you are morals, self proclaimed prophets and self proclaimed scripture, what if they are wrong.  Aren't you simplu kicking your moral choices to someone else rather than yourself?

Yup

[Teancum]

On 5/22/2023 at 11:46 AM, smac97 said:

Well, there's the Korihor approach, summarized in Alma 30:17 - "And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever a man did was no crime."

"{W}hatsoever a man did was no crime."  There is no right or wrong.  There is only the individual's personal, ad hoc, idiosyncratic sense of "right" (if I like X) and "wrong" (if I don't like X).

Thanks,

-Smac 

Uh sure.  There are a whole lot of other ways.  One does not need a god to be moral and as I have asked over and over, which god's morals should one follow and how does one know these morals are really from some god and not from someone who says "Trust me.god is telling me what you should do." JS's happiness letter comes to mind.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Teancum

[smac97]

25 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Quote

If the controls, checks and balances, etc. in place are working, then they tend to eliminate or substantially mitigate the size/scope of "scandalous behavior."

We've come a long way since the spendthrift days of Elder Moyle.  I am glad Elder Tanner came along when he did.

I do not  think there are financial scandals.

I do not think the LDS leaders are living high on the hog and putting loads of money into their pockets. In fact their pay is modest. They should be paid many times over what they get paid for running a large world wide church. 

I am impressed with ho the church has successfully accumulated wealth and am favorable of a rainy day fund at about 3x its annual operating costs.

I am impressed with the church's welfare efforts and all it does there.

I think fast offering assistance in brilliant and have no issue that it may mostly benefit members. They are as deserving as help as anyone else when they need it.

My two biggest complaints are lack of financial transparency and reporting.

Okay.

25 minutes ago, Teancum said:

And the massive amount of extra wealth the church has just sitting there.

Not sure what "extra wealth" means.

25 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I think  both of these are moral issues.

Perhaps this is one of those "moral issues" about which people have very different views.  Some people find elective abortion the pinnacle of morality, and others its exact opposite.

25 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I understand how difficult it is to deploy large resources.

I have been wondering if this difficulty is one of the principal obstacles between where the Church is and where some folks, like you, want it to be.

See, e.g., here:

Quote

Bishop Caussé said caring for those in need across the globe is at the heart of the mission of the Church. It is not “an appendage to the mission,” but instead is intermingled in everything the Church does. “We are all sons and daughters of God upon the earth, and we are committed to take care of one another,” he said. “And this is one of the ways that, as disciples of Lord Jesus Christ, we care for those in need.”

In addition to responding to disasters across the globe, Church humanitarian funds have been used to provide food programs, vision care, maternal and newborn care, clean water and sanitation, immunizations, wheelchairs, and help for refugees.

However, reaching out and helping those in need is “a very complex endeavor,” he said.

The Church can’t just send out cash and checks to people, he said. “It has to be done in an organized way, and with follow up, with training, a lot of expertise and good partners. Otherwise, you just don’t get any results.”

Bishop Davies said the Church is careful to select humanitarian projects and partners that will make the best use of the Church’s funds. “We are very careful with the widow’s mite,” referring to the biblical parable by the Savior.

“We recognize that this comes from the faith of Church members and we want to make certain that they have the trust and confidence that their donations are being managed in a careful and thoughtful and very safe way for them and for the Church,” said Bishop Davies.

Leaders often ask themselves “what else can we do, where else can we go, who else can we work with,” said Bishop Waddell.  

Every time the Church reaches out, the objective is to bless both the giver and the receiver, added Bishop Caussé. So in addition to selecting good humanitarian projects, Church leaders are always mindful of providing service opportunities for Church members. “It’s not just a matter of money,” he said. It’s also done as members “devote time and resources and efforts to help others.”
...

Because of the sacred nature of Latter-day Saint funds, the management of Church finances occurs at the highest levels of Church leadership.

The investments of the Church, for example, are overseen by two committees, said Bishop Caussé. The Investment Policy Committee, chaired by President Russell M. Nelson, is composed of the First Presidency, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and members of the Presiding Bishopric. The second committee is the Investment Executive Committee. It meets monthly and includes the Presiding Bishopric and managing directors over Church investments. This Committee reviews and prepares recommendations to be taken to the Investment Policy Committee.

Bishop Caussé said Church financial policy is clear: “We will not expend more than the expected revenues. The budget is based on that principle.”

Funds donated to the Church belong to the Lord, he said. “We believe that there needs to be a lot of care in the handling of the finances of the Church.”

And here:

Quote

Bishop Caussé said the size of the fund is a proper backstop for the church’s full breadth and depth of operation.

 

“Most of the growth, I have to say, is because we are right now in the longest period of prosperity in the United States that has ever been recorded, and this is creating that surge of financial markets,” he said. “We are just beneficiaries of it.”

In 2008, the credit crisis and related stock market plunge reportedly obliterated 21% of the value of Ensign Peak’s holdings, according to a document produced by the former employee’s brother. The Ensign Peak fund reportedly has more than doubled in the subsequent, ongoing economic upswing.

The bishopric did not confirm those reports, but did say the church froze budgets and hiring during the crisis. The only budget item that increased in that period was humanitarian and welfare spending, because church leaders knew more people would need help.

“There will be future downturns,” Bishop Waddell said. “How extensive, how dramatic we don’t know. But one of the comments we made to the Journal was that if that were to happen, because of the reserves being carefully watched over, protected and wisely handled, we won’t have to stop missionary work, we won’t have to stop maintaining buildings and building temples, we won’t have to stop humanitarian and welfare work, we won’t have to stop education work. What the journalist (wrote) was that we won’t have to stop missionary work, period. Well, there’s more than that.”

The Presiding Bishopric said a large reserve is necessary, specifically citing as reasons the church’s expansion into countries in which congregations are not self-sustaining, the construction of 50 more temples and the growing cost of providing educational opportunities for more and more students. The church is educating 880,500 students through its seminary and institutes program, universities and Pathway program.

They said tithing and fast offerings are spiritual principles that benefit church members, shared more details about the church’s farms and educational expenses and described its humanitarian donations as precision-guided aid.

“It is a church,” Bishop Caussé said. “It’s not a financial institution … and because it is a church, the funds that are managed within the church are contributed by the members of the church and are really sacred. We really consider those funds as belonging to the Lord.

“It’s difficult to understand the church,” he added. “If you look at it as a financial institution, you will never understand it. You have to look at it as an organization of consecrated followers of Jesus Christ. This is what it is, with a mission assigned by the Lord.”

The three bishops challenged some of what they’ve seen in previous reports.

“The people who say we’re not doing our part, that is just not true,” Bishop Waddell said. “We’re talking close to $1 billion in that welfare/humanitarian area on an annual basis. Yes, we are using our resources to bless the poor and the needy as well as all of the other responsibilities we have as a church.”

The figure includes all humanitarian and welfare expenditures, including fast offering aid.

The budget for humanitarian work “has gone up dramatically,” Bishop Waddell said.

In fact, Bishop Caussé added, humanitarian expenditures have doubled in the past five years.

“And we believe they are going to increase fast,” he said.

Increases in humanitarian and welfare spending are driven first by the contributions and volunteerism of church members, the bishops said. The other major factor is how quickly the church can ensure new avenues for precise giving. For example, Latter-day Saint Charities carefully and thoroughly assesses each partner. “The last thing you want to do is just give them money and then you really don’t know where it goes,” Bishop Davies said. “So we have both missionaries and area staff on the ground, feet on the ground, who actually are there, they can see that food’s being distributed, or equipment, or schools are being built as part of our program.”

“We have an obligation to the members of the church who pay their tithes and offerings to make sure that is going to organizations or areas that will actually meet a need,” Bishop Waddell said. “The members of the church have a right to trust that it’s going to be managed and handled well and not just thrown at issues.”

The leaders said the church’s expansion into more countries is increasing its ability and opportunities to help others.

“As the church has been established in many more countries, we develop local relationships with nongovernmental organizations and governments, and as we develop those types of relationships, we become aware of more and more needs,” Bishop Caussé said. “In the past our humanitarian reach was done mostly either directly or through our partnerships with global organizations” the church trusts to ensure donations are effective. “We’re going to see more and more partnerships with local organizations, because we are there and we are present and we know the people.”

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

27 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Quote

With respect, I think making an individual's "moral judgment" paramount can lead to all sorts of terrible things.  This is the philosophy of Korihor, as summarized in Alma 30:17 - "And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever a man did was no crime."

If my "moral judgment" is paramount, then I can adjudicate anything I do and like as "moral" and anything that opposes me, or that I don't like, as "immoral."  

I think it is far preferable to look for and adopt an moral framework that is independent of the individual, and then seek to improve and strengthen it.  This is, I think, well expressed in the counsel of Alma to his son, Corianton, in Alma 39:9 - "Now my son, I would that ye should repent and forsake your sins, and go no more after the lusts of your eyes, but cross yourself in all these things; for except ye do this ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. Oh, remember, and take it upon you, and cross yourself in these things."

And in Mosiah 3:19 - "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father."

“The purpose of the gospel is … to make bad men good and good men better, and to change human nature.”—President David O. McKay, in the film Every Member a Missionary, as quoted by Elder Franklin D. Richards in Conference Report, Oct. 1965

I have long appreciated the Restored Gospel for its exhortation that we do things that require us to rise above selfish desires and preferences, and to make real sacrifices.

Okk. But if your moral framework is based on that others are telling you are morals,

My moral framework is based on considerably more than "{w}hat others are telling" me.  My personal study and thoughts and conclusions.  My experiences and observations.  Personal revelation.

27 minutes ago, Teancum said:

self proclaimed prophets and self proclaimed scripture, what if they are wrong. 

The prophets and scripture are more than self-proclaimed.  Again, conclusions and decisions borne of personal study, experience and revelation all comprise substantial portions of my moral framework.

You are describing blind faith, rote obedience.  The Church does not espouse that, and I aspire to much more than that.

27 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Aren't you simplu kicking your moral choices to someone else rather than yourself?

No.  I choose to believe.  To sustain.  To accept.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

11 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Uh sure.  There are a hole lot of other ways.  One does not need a god to be moral

One needs some mechanism for differentiating moral from immoral, right from wrong, etc.

11 minutes ago, Teancum said:

and as I have asked over and over, which god's morals should one follow and how does one know these morals are really from some god and not from someone who says "Trust me.god is telling me what you should do." JS's happiness letter comes to mind.

I would think you know where I stand on this.  

And Joseph Smith didn't just say "Trust me."  Moroni's Promise and other concepts pertaining to personal revelation are in play.

I have never met Joseph Smith, but I have read the Book of Mormon and other scriptures.

I have never seen the Plates, but I have studied the statements and lives of the Witnesses.

I have never seen God, but I have prayed and sought personal revelation on these matters.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Analytics]

40 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Bishop Caussé said caring for those in need across the globe is at the heart of the mission of the Church. It is not “an appendage to the mission,” but instead is intermingled in everything the Church does. “We are all sons and daughters of God upon the earth, and we are committed to take care of one another,” he said.

Judging by what the Church does rather than what it says, growing the size of its for-profit investment portfolio is the Church's number one priority. It deploys most (i.e. more than 50%) of its annual revenue into growing the size of its commercial investments, and uses the minority to fund all of its charitable, religious, and education priorities.

it appears that obfuscating this reality is the Church's biggest reason for refusing to be transparent.

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Analytics

[Analytics]

46 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Uh sure.  There are a hole lot of other ways.  One does not need a god to be moral and as I have asked over and over, which god's morals should one follow and how does one know these morals are really from some god and not from someone who says "Trust me.god is telling me what you should do." JS's happiness letter comes to mind.

This isn't a new debate. It reminds me of what Emerson said nearly 200 years ago:

"He who would gather immortal palms must not be hindered by the name of goodness, but must explore if it be goodness. Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Absolve you to yourself, and you shall have the suffrage of the world. I remember an answer which when quite young I was prompted to make to a valued adviser, who was wont to importune me with the dear old doctrines of the church. On my saying, What have I to do with the sacredness of traditions, if I live wholly from within? my friend suggested,--"But these impulses may be from below, not from above." I replied, "They do not seem to me to be such; but if I am the Devil's child, I will live then from the Devil." No law can be sacred to me but that of my nature."

[Hamilton Porter]

4 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

So, the LDS church has little effect on members’ lives? 😳

The LDS Church is not an established religion like the Catholic Church. There are no countries where it's the state religion, let alone the majority.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Hamilton Porter

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Hamilton Porter said:

The LDS Church is not an established religion like that Catholic Church. There are no countries where it's the state religion, let alone the majority.

So, you’re sticking with the ludicrous assertion that established religions like Catholicism have little effect on their members’ lives? 

For our Catholic and non-LDS posters, even though I’m not active LDS, I’d like to apologize on behalf of LDS board members for this guy’s insulting remarks. Most Mormons do not hold such opinions. We have much love and respect for you and your faith. 

[Hamilton Porter]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

So, you’re sticking with the ludicrous assertion that established religions like Catholicism have little effect on their members’ lives? 

Absolutely. That's been empirically demonstrated. In the US, that happened to the Catholic Church after Vatican II. And it gets worse whenever a religion becomes the state religion.

It's been documented in Stark and Finke's The Churching of America: Winners and Losers in Our Religious Economy.

https://www.rutgersuniversitypress.org/the-churching-of-america-1776-2005/9780813535531

Edited May 25, 2023 by Hamilton Porter
Add subtitle to book

[jkwilliams]

59 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Absolutely. That's been empirically demonstrated. In the US, that happened to the Catholic Church after Vatican II. And it gets worse whenever a religion becomes the state religion.

It's been documented in Stark and Finke's The Church of America. 

https://www.rutgersuniversitypress.org/the-churching-of-america-1776-2005/9780813535531

Again, non-LDS folks: this view is not one most of us hold. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by jkwilliams

[Hamilton Porter]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Again, non-LDS folks: this view is not one most of us hold. 

I was going to find you a succinct summary from the book, but I remember a quote from the book that aptly summarizes their thesis: Those who go mainline are headed for the sidelines.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Hamilton Porter

[Teancum]

15 hours ago, smac97 said:

Okay.

Not sure what "extra wealth" means.

Really?  I think I an others have pointed out that for an organization like the church it is best practices to have 2 to 3 times its annual operating revenue set aside. I have stated this numerous times. @Analytics has as well.  Based on best practices anything beyond this is extra, excess, too much and should be put to work rather than just growing and growing every year.

 

15 hours ago, smac97 said:

Perhaps this is one of those "moral issues" about which people have very different views.  Some people find elective abortion the pinnacle of morality, and others its exact opposite.

I am not sure I would make the same comparison.  And sure we can differ about our views of morals. You don't seem to have a problem with the church that proclaim to be that of Jesus Christ accumulating hundreds of billions of wealth. I think that is inconsistent with the message that we get from the scriptures about helping the poor.

15 hours ago, smac97 said:

I have been wondering if this difficulty is one of the principal obstacles between where the Church is and where some folks, like you, want it to be.

See, e.g., here:

And here:

Thanks,

-Smac

I concede that  it can he difficult but not impossible.  There are a lot of bright people managing things for the church.  It seem to me if they really wanted to start deploying more of these resources in a humanitarian way they could do it.

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, smac97 said:

My moral framework is based on considerably more than "{w}hat others are telling" me.  My personal study and thoughts and conclusions.  My experiences and observations.  Personal revelation.

Well yes certainly.  Yet your moral framework is based in large part on your religion.  We all have a moral framework that is developed from various sources. My point was in response to I believe your position that somehow invoking a god being to build a moral framework on is superior to not basing a moral framework on other methods or systems.  We all do it. I don't necessarily find one way superior to the other.  So yes you do lean on other sources for your moral framework as a believer same as a non believer.

 

16 hours ago, smac97 said:

The prophets and scripture are more than self-proclaimed. 

A faith based assertion.

 

16 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

Again, conclusions and decisions borne of personal study, experience and revelation all comprise substantial portions of my moral framework.

Ok I agree.

 

16 hours ago, smac97 said:

You are describing blind faith, rote obedience.  The Church does not espouse that, and I aspire to much more than that.

The primary song follow the prophet comes to mind here.

16 hours ago, smac97 said:

No.  I choose to believe.  To sustain.  To accept.

Thanks,

-Smac