"Vengeance is Mine" - Book by Richard E. Turley and Barbara Jones Brown

[smac97]

Tribune: 

Quote

Mountain Meadows Massacre — What did Brigham Young know and when did he know it?
Co-authors of the new book “Vengeance Is Mine” explore the aftermath of the bloodiest stain on LDS history, including how church leaders in southern Utah tried to cover up the crime, how investigations were thwarted, and how justice was delayed and denied.

The 2008 book “Massacre at Mountain Meadows” offered modern readers the most complete look to date at the atrocity, when, on Sept. 11, 1857, Mormon settlers deceived a wagon train of emigrants on their way to California through southern Utah and then slaughtered about a hundred men, women and children.

Now comes the eagerly anticipated follow-up volume, titled “Vengeance Is Mine: The Mountain Meadows Massacre and Its Aftermath.”

On this week’s show, co-authors Richard E. Turley and Barbara Jones Brown explain how church leaders in southern Utah tried to cover up the crime, how investigations were thwarted, and how justice was delayed and denied. (In then end, only one perpetrator, John D. Lee, was executed.)

They also explore a key Watergate-like question: What did church prophet-president Brigham Young know and when did he know it?

I'll be curious as to what they have to say about what Brigham Young knew and when.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Hamilton Porter]

Silly me, I was fooled by the identify dust jacket.

[Craig Speechly]

"I have always believed, since that day, that General George A. Smith was then visiting Southern Utah to prepare the people for the work of exterminating Captain Fancher's train of emigrants, and I now believe that he was sent for that purpose by the direct command of Brigham Young. The knowledge of how George A. Smith felt towards the emigrants, and his telling me that he had a long talk with Haight on the subject, made me certain that it was the wish of the Church authorities, that Fancher and his train should be wiped out, and knowing all this, I did not doubt then, and I do not doubt it now, either, that Haight was acting by full authority from the Church leaders, and that the orders he gave to me were just the orders that he had been directed to give, when he ordered me to raise the Indians and have them attack the emigrants." -  John D. Lee

What I find of particular interest is that Lee's membership and "blessings" were restored in 1961 under the presidency of David O. McKay.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Craig Speechly

[Tacenda]

Just listened to the episode of Mormon Land the OP is about, very good and worth the time listening to it. 

https://www.sltrib.com/podcasts/mormonland/

Wondering how my former stake president way back, Pres Leonard, is doing and why he didn't work on it. I know his wife had/has Alzheimer's and he would bring her to my friend to get her hair done a while back. 

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Tacenda

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

What I find of particular interest is that Lee's membership and "blessings" were restored in 1961 under the presidency of David O. McKay.

If it made his family feel better, why not?  It gave him no authority or priesthood over anyone living.  It is up to God to judge him and if he has repented of his sins and has purged his soul of the hate that made his actions and justifications possible, why couldn’t the blessings be restored?  His exaltation is likely still in question though, due to murder of innocents. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Calm

[Craig Speechly]

22 hours ago, Calm said:

If it made his family feel better, why not?  It gave him no authority or priesthood over anyone living.  It is up to God to judge him and if he has repented of his sins and has purged his soul of the hate that made his actions and justifications possible, why couldn’t the blessings be restored?  His exaltation is likely still in question though, due to murder of innocents. 

Let's be clear. Lee did not act alone, he acted under orders from his priesthood leaders and in cooperation with his fellow ward and stake members. Yet he alone was held responsible and paid for his participation with his life, while everyone else that was involved got off scott free.

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Craig Speechly said:

Let's be clear. Lee did not act alone, he acted under orders from his priesthood leaders and in cooperation with his fellow ward and stake members. Yet he alone was held responsible and paid for his participation with his life, while everyone else that was involved got off scott free.

I would not say that everyone else got off scott free.  The stake president at the time, Isaac C. Haight, lived the rest of his life as a fugitive from federal authorities.  He was also excommunicated from the church, though he was reinstated a few decades later in his life time.  It appears he was also ostracized by members.  There's at least one story of him being harassed by a mob of members because they didn't want him around (http://www.hirf.org/history_bio_haight_i.asp).

That's one thing I'm hoping this book has; the lives of the participants (both victims and perpetrators) after the massacre.

[Craig Speechly]

10 minutes ago, webbles said:

I would not say that everyone else got off scott free.  The stake president at the time, Isaac C. Haight, lived the rest of his life as a fugitive from federal authorities.  He was also excommunicated from the church, though he was reinstated a few decades later in his life time.  It appears he was also ostracized by members.  There's at least one story of him being harassed by a mob of members because they didn't want him around (http://www.hirf.org/history_bio_haight_i.asp).

That's one thing I'm hoping this book has; the lives of the participants (both victims and perpetrators) after the massacre.

I stand corrected

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

Let's be clear. Lee did not act alone, he acted under orders from his priesthood leaders and in cooperation with his fellow ward and stake members. Yet he alone was held responsible and paid for his participation with his life, while everyone else that was involved got off scott free.

Not sure how that is relevant to my comment, but I am well aware of that he was the only one executed while there were many more involved.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Calm

[T-Shirt]

On 5/17/2023 at 6:53 AM, smac97 said:

I'll be curious as to what they have to say about what Brigham Young knew and when.

Thanks,

-Smac

I'm currently reading the book but have not read the whole thing. Lee, of course lied about everything for the remainder of his life. He met with Brigham Young shortly after the attack and told him a pack of lies. Young sent George A Smith to investigate who was roundly fooled by the cover-up by Lee and the other participants. Smith maintained that he believed the Indians were solely responsible for years after. Young was well aware of the rumors about the Mormons being responsible, but most of them were coming from "gentile" sources and he seemed to want to believe Lee's story as well as George A Smith's report. In late 1862 John Bernhisel asked Young if he was aware of a document that had a lot of damning evidence of Lee. He was not aware of it but requested a copy. By Spring of 1863 Young's attitude toward Lee started to change. It appears, though, that he softened a little over time because he still didn't want to believe that Lee had lied to him. Apostle Erastus Snow and Lorenzo Roundy, bishop of Kanarra, had been gathering evidence for years but had been silent about it. In 1870 they decided they needed to inform Young. From the book:

Quote

 

Snow later testified that he and Roundy “communicated to President Young the facts” about the massacre “as we had learned them, and the sources of our information.”7 Roundy felt Young “did not know the truth” and bluntly told him he had “been misled and deceived” about the matter. “If you want to know the truth about it,” Roundy suggested, “ask Nephi Johnson, & he will tell you.”

Turley, Richard E.; Jones Brown, Barbara. Vengeance Is Mine (pp. 253-254). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition. 

 

Young called for Nephi Johnson (1870) who told him the whole story. Again from the book:

Quote

 

Johnson knew the prime movers in the crime were not Indians. He could testify that Lee played a leading role in the massacre from the first attack to the final slaughter, and that Lee was not alone. Militiamen sent by Isaac Haight had gathered Paiutes to the Meadows and orchestrated the final attack. As Johnson relayed his version of events, Young paced the floor, “deeply impressed,” several times interjecting, “Why did Lee lie to me?”

Believing Johnson’s statement that many who took part in the massacre did so under duress and at their militia leaders’ orders, Young said he would not hold the younger men responsible but would punish the ringleaders. He soon acted on what he learned.9

Between the church’s general conference sessions on October 8, “we held a Council at noon at Presidet Youngs office,” Wilford Woodruff wrote. The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles “by unanimous vote Cut of[f] Isaac Haight, John D Lee & [George] Wood, for Committing a great Sin & they were not to have the Privilege of Returning . . . to the Church again in this life.”10 Apostle Joseph F. Smith wrote of the meeting, “John D. Lee and I. Haight and Geo. Wood, were cut off the Church because of extreem wickedness, or for having been engaged in the M. M. M.”

Turley, Richard E.; Jones Brown, Barbara. Vengeance Is Mine (p. 254). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by T-Shirt

[Navidad]

The MMM had a significant impact on many of the participants as well as obviously on the families of those killed. People like Phillip Klingensmith, Nephi Johnson, Isaac Haight, William C Stewart. Its causes were complex and its impact widespread. A number of those indicted hid here in Mexico at one time or another. Isaac Haight, here under an assumed name was outed by a furious George Calvin Williams, a Baptist preacher convert who helped found a number of the colonies here. He complained directly to Apostle Teasdale about Haight being allowed to live here. He had married two of the couples who were killed at MMM when he was a Baptist preacher back in early 1850s northwest Arkansas. Haight had to leave and died in Thatcher of a heart attack. William Stewart lived the rest of his life here and is buried in the old Mormon cemetery in CJ. As recently as ten years ago or so one of his direct descendants petitioned to be allowed to be buried there and it was approved. It is the only modern burial I know of in that cemetery. To my knowledge there is no absolute evidence for where Klingensmith died and was buried, or even if he was buried. One plausible story is that he died in a mine near the Mormon colonies in Sonora. Others say he died in Nevada. Of course, the interactions between Juanita Brooks and Nephi Johnson are legendary stuff.  There is a large monument to those killed in the town square in Harrisonville, Arkansas. Last time I was there, there was still anger over the event. I know and have every confidence in both Rick Turley and Barbara Jones Brown that they have done a faithful, accurate (to the degree possible) and historically valid job in this book.  It was my interest in MMM that led to my thirty-five years of studying Mormon history which led me to try and understand Mormon doctrine to better understand the symbiosis between the two.

[Navidad]

23 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

Between the church’s general conference sessions on October 8, “we held a Council at noon at Presidet Youngs office,” Wilford Woodruff wrote. The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles “by unanimous vote Cut of[f] Isaac Haight, John D Lee & [George] Wood, for Committing a great Sin & they were not to have the Privilege of Returning . . . to the Church again in this life.”10 Apostle Joseph F. Smith wrote of the meeting, “John D. Lee and I. Haight and Geo. Wood, were cut off the Church because of extreem wickedness, or for having been engaged in the M. M. M.”

I believe when John Taylor was president, he had a different perspective on Isaac Haight's situation. Maybe this new book talks about that. We will see.

[InCognitus]

24 minutes ago, Navidad said:

furious George

I read those books when I was a kid.

[T-Shirt]

21 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I believe when John Taylor was president, he had a different perspective on Isaac Haight's situation. Maybe this new book talks about that. We will see.

The only mention of John Taylor's contributions is the following:

Quote

 

Among the Saints, apostle John Taylor, who would succeed Young as church president, spoke out against the massacre. “Do you deny it?” Taylor asked. “No. Do you excuse it? No. There is no excuse for such a relentless, diabolical, sanguinary deed,” 

Taylor declared. “That outrageous infamy,” he said, “is looked upon with as much abhorence by our people as by any other parties in this nation or in the world.” As much as Taylor wished the massacre had never happened, he recognized it “cannot be undone.” He called on the public to “blame the perpetrators,” not the entire Latter-day Saint community. Taylor had been in the council that excommunicated Lee and Haight, and he publicly called the massacre “a disgrace to humanity.”

Turley, Richard E.; Jones Brown, Barbara. Vengeance Is Mine (p. 289). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.

 

What perspective are you thinking of?

[Navidad]

I was thinking of something I was once told by a historian that Haight was on his way from Mexico to the temple at St George to receive his second anointing from John Taylor when he had a heart attack and died in Thatcher, AZ. If that is a true account, would it not indicate that President Taylor considered him worthy of that honor? I know that both John Taylor and John W Taylor had very close connections here with the colonies. John W's house is still standing and is lived in by a son of a modern general authority. Apparently Taylor also knew where and how to find Haight to send him a message to go to St George. I don't know too much about second anointings in the 1880s. Perhaps they were more common than I had thought. I believe I am correct that John D Lee also had a second anointing. Would that be in some way nullified by his participation in the massacre or his infamy after? I have a book somewhere here in my library on the second anointing. I will have to read up on it.  Take care.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Navidad

[T-Shirt]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I was thinking of something I was once told by a historian that Haight was on his way from Mexico to the temple at St George to receive his second anointing from John Taylor when he had a heart attack and died in Thatcher, AZ. If that is a true account, would it not indicate that President Taylor considered him worthy of that honor? I know that both John Taylor and John W Taylor had very close connections here with the colonies. John W's house is still standing and is lived in by a son of a modern general authority. Apparently Taylor also knew where and how to find Haight to send him a message to go to St George. I don't know too much about second anointings in the 1880s. Perhaps they were more common than I had thought. I believe I am correct that John D Lee also had a second anointing. Would that be in some way nullified by his participation in the massacre or his infamy after? I have a book somewhere here in my library on the second anointing. I will have to read up on it.  Take care.

Here is what the book says about Haight living in hiding:

Quote

 

By mid-1880, Haight had moved to the new Latter-day Saint settlement of Manassa, Colorado.30 He wrote his wife Eliza Ann that he craved reuniting with her in Utah but saw no chance of returning there “until the [federal] Hounds leave.”31 Haight later moved in with a son and daughter in a Mormon settlement near the San Juan River in New Mexico until he felt safe enough to return to Toquerville, Utah.32

Just days after his arrival in Toquerville, Latter-day Saint newspaper editor Charles W. Penrose gave a speech in Salt Lake about the Mountain Meadows Massacre that evoked a response from the Salt Lake Tribune. Both accounts featured Haight’s name and revived public feeling against him.33 Now seventy-one years old, Haight had begun participating in ceremonies in the St. George Temple.34

According to his granddaughter, some Latter-day Saints recognized him in the temple and threatened him if he did not vacate the sacred edifice. “As there was considerable buzzing” in St. George, he wrote under a pseudonym to a daughter, he decided to flee to Cedar City “for a few days until things quiet down.”35

Hostility among the people of St. George eventually drove Haight to Thatcher, Arizona, where he joined a nephew, Hyrum Brinkerhoff, on a colonizing mission to Mexico. To obscure his identity, he continued to use aliases.36 The mission proved difficult and lonely. “I think that most of those in this country have felt sorely tried to part with those that are dear to them as their lives and wander as fugatives in a strange land and people,” Haight wrote, “but when they have tried it as long as I have they will not feel so impatient[;] yet I feel it very sorely.”

“I am lookin for a change of officials in Utah that I can have a fair & impartial and speedy trial,” he wrote in July 1885. “Then I hope to be on hand to have my trial, and spend the rest of my days with my Dear Family.”37

Later that month, George Calvin Williams encountered Haight, going by his mother’s maiden name of Horton, at a church meeting in Mexico. Williams, a former Baptist preacher and Latter-day Saint convert who claimed thirteen relatives among the massacre victims, could not believe Haight still found fellowship in the church. Haight was even serving as clerk to apostle George Teasdale, who was living in Mexico. Williams approached Teasdale, saying the country “wasn’t big enough” for both him and Haight and warning “that one of us better get out of Mexico and do it quick.” Teasdale relayed the conversation to Haight, who fled back to his nephew’s in Thatcher, Arizona.38 There Haight died of pneumonia on September 8, 1886.39

The nephew kept Haight’s body in a casket he stowed in the cellar of his home and inn, expecting immediate family members to claim it. But no one came. After lying in the cellar for many years, Haight’s remains were finally buried in a Thatcher cemetery. In more recent times, a relative erected a gravestone reading: “in memory of ISAAC C. HAIGHT . . . a noble man has gone to his rest. he paid the high price of leadership.”40

George Calvin Williams stewed about Haight for a decade, writing the First Presidency about him. “With reference to Isaac C. Haight,” Wilford Woodruff and his two counselors replied, “we can, in some degree, we believe, sympathize with the feelings that filled your heart on meeting him.” But now he had “gone to his God to meet his deserts; and for his sake we hope that he was not as guilty as common rumor charges,” they wrote. “Some things in relation to that terrible act will never be known until the secrets of all hearts are revealed.”

Turley, Richard E.; Jones Brown, Barbara. Vengeance Is Mine (p. 389). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by T-Shirt

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

believe I am correct that John D Lee also had a second anointing.

Supposedly in 1846, before the Massacre. 

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

Here is what the book says about Haight living in hiding:

 

This is quite consistent with the story I was told! The only difference is I was told that his body lay unclaimed in a casket in the basement of the old county courthouse in Thatcher and that children were afraid to go there because of it, except on Halloween! The account I was told was very similar from the time he was here under a pseudonym. I can't wait to see what sources or citations they use for this account of his life in Mexico and from here to Thatcher. George Calvin Williams ended up leaving the church and being divorced by his wife. I have a wonderful photo of them in my book. He then went to live near modern day Benson and Mescal, AZ. He is buried there in the smallest registered cemetery in Arizona along with two or three children. The land was set for development for homes and moving the bodies a few years ago. I am not sure whatever became of that situation. His grave is about 500 yards south of I-10. I have been there a number of times! Unfriendly rattlers there! Thanks for posting this further information.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Navidad

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Supposedly in 1846, before the Massacre. 

Thanks. All this is great history.

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

This is quite consistent with the story I was told! The only difference is I was told that his body lay unclaimed in a casket in the basement of the old county courthouse in Thatcher and that children were afraid to go there because of it, except on Halloween! The account I was told was very similar from the time he was here under a pseudonym. I can't wait to see what sources or citations they use for this account of his life in Mexico and from here to Thatcher. George Calvin Williams ended up leaving the church and being divorced by his wife. I have a wonderful photo of them in my book. He then went to live near modern day Benson and Mescal, AZ. He is buried there in the smallest registered cemetery in Arizona along with two or three children. The land was set for development for homes and moving the bodies a few years ago. I am not sure whatever became of that situation. His grave is about 500 yards south of I-10. I have been there a number of times! Unfriendly rattlers there! Thanks for posting this further information.

I like hearing about your experiences with those areas in Arizona.  My grandfather worked for Phelps Dodge (copper mining), and was in Morenci, Arizona (I think that's where Spencer W. Kimball was his stake president) and he later went to Bisbee (we had to drive through Benson and Tombstone to get there), and then later to Tyrone (and Silver City), New Mexico.  So I'm familiar with those areas and it brings back a lot of memories.  

Not long ago I stumbled upon a fascinating history of Daniel W. Jones, who was one of the leading Mormon pioneers into central Arizona (Mesa specifically).  You might be interested in it (I thought of you when I read this story, and it was about the same time you were talking about Butch Cassidy).  See:  BYU Digital Collections - Religious Studies Center -  Selections from the Religious Education Student Symposium 2007:  Daniel W. Jones and the Beginnings of Latter-day Saint Settlement in Arizona, by Christopher C. Jones. 

He sounds like an interesting character.  And since I was born in Arizona and grew up in the Phoenix east valley area (Mesa is a part of that), the history of that area is very interesting to me.  I am almost more amazed at how the early Arizona pioneers managed to settle the area and survive in the Arizona summer heat without modern air conditioning than I am for those who had to endure crossing the plains from Illinois to Salt Lake City.  

I like what that paper says about one of the first groups sent from Utah into Arizona (page 3-4):

Quote

[T]he majority of the Arizona territory was foreign to the Saints, and despite previous parties' attempts to settle what proved to be the most promising area, 'the valley of Salt River was not known even to Brigham Young.'  One of the previous expeditions had been led by Brother McMaster.  The expedition's group consisted of several hundred hundred persons with teams of horses and cattle. This group had gone some forty-five miles past the Little Colorado River but had run out of water in the unforgiving heat of late summer in Arizona—even the Little Colorado was completely dry.  Brother McMaster, a man of faith and courage, petitioned God for help—specifically to provide water.  Rain and even a little snow soon followed, and the group filled their barrels, fed their cattle, and headed back to Salt Lake, grateful for the miracle they had experienced. Upon arrival, they reported the area uninhabitable. Jones reported that the day this story was told to Brigham Young, "I was sitting near by and just in front of Brother Brigham. . . . He said noth­ing for a few moments, but sat looking me straight in the eye.  Finally he asked, 'What do you think of that Brother Jones?'  I  answered,  'I would have filled up, went on, and prayed again.'  Brother Brigham replied put­ting his hand upon me, 'This is the man that shall take charge of the next trip to Arizona.'"

The funny thing about that story is that I consider the area near the Little Colorado River to be part of the "high country" and relatively cool compared to the Phoenix area!  (But part of that area is also desert like, so I'll cut them some slack). 

The other thing I thought was interesting was his good relationship with the Native Americans, and it was only really because of his friendship with these good people that he was able to succeed in his settlements in the Salt River valley.  His friendship with the Native Americans and his insistence that they be an integrated part of their settlement was met with disapproval and controversy from some of the members, and about half of those he brought with him from Utah left him to settle elsewhere (they went on to found St. David, Arizona according to the Wikipedia article on his life).

The other unusual thing I learned about Daniel W. Jones (from the Wikipedia article) is that he is the grandfather of actress Fay Wray (she starred in the 1933 movie, King Kong).  It seems funny to me that this actress would be so closely related to such a tough and determined explorer and pioneer of the Southwest. 

Edited May 20, 2023 by InCognitus

[Navidad]

10 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I like hearing about your experiences with those areas in Arizona.  My grandfather worked for Phelps Dodge (copper mining), and was in Morenci, Arizona (I think that's where Spencer W. Kimball was his stake president) and he later went to Bisbee (we had to drive through Benson and Tombstone to get there), and then later to Tyrone (and Silver City), New Mexico.  So I'm familiar with those areas and it brings back a lot of memories.  

Not long ago I stumbled upon a fascinating history of Daniel W. Jones, who was one of the leading Mormon pioneers into central Arizona (Mesa specifically).  You might be interested in it (I thought of you when I read this story, and it was about the same time you were talking about Butch Cassidy).  See:  BYU Digital Collections - Religious Studies Center -  Selections from the Religious Education Student Symposium 2007:  Daniel W. Jones and the Beginnings of Latter-day Saint Settlement in Arizona, by Christopher C. Jones. 

He sounds like an interesting character.  And since I was born in Arizona and grew up in the Phoenix east valley area (Mesa is a part of that), the history of that area is very interesting to me.  I am almost more amazed at how the early Arizona pioneers managed to settle the area and survive in the Arizona summer heat without modern air conditioning than I am for those who had to endure crossing the plains from Illinois to Salt Lake City.  

I like what that paper says about one of the first groups sent from Utah into Arizona (page 3-4):

The funny thing about that story is that I consider the area near the Little Colorado River to be part of the "high country" and relatively cool compared to the Phoenix area!  (But part of that area is also desert like, so I'll cut them some slack). 

The other thing I thought was interesting was his good relationship with the Native Americans, and it was only really because of his friendship with these good people that he was able to succeed in his settlements in the Salt River valley.  His friendship with the Native Americans and his insistence that they be an integrated part of their settlement was met with disapproval and controversy from some of the members, and about half of those he brought with him from Utah left him to settle elsewhere (they went on to found St. David, Arizona according to the Wikipedia article on his life).

The other unusual thing I learned about Daniel W. Jones (from the Wikipedia article) is that he is the grandfather of actress Fay Wray (she starred in the 1933 movie, King Kong).  It seems funny to me that this actress would be so closely related to such a tough and determined explorer and pioneer of the Southwest. 

I know lots of stories about Daniel Webster Jones. Some of them involve whiskey, so we will just let it go at that! His descendants still populate the Dublan colony about half an hour from my house. I am very close to the Jones' who, by the way assure me we would be welcome in THEIR ward! Lots of competition between the wards here and significant differences in the culture of each. I have done firesides for the Jones' clan here, wasting their evenings with all of my stories. I once bought 10,000 garlic plants from one of them! That was a fun winter season! Daniel Webster Jones was feisty with a capital F. Ditto for many of the early settlers of Arizona and Mexico. A group of LDS settlers came here prior to the official founding of the LDS colonies here. They are often ignored in the history, but they established the very first official LDS organization here - a branch in Corralitos. They were not "official" colonizers so their hard work mining and transporting salt is often ignored. Ditto for some LDS miners in southern Chihuahua. I have never heard anyone talk or write about them (except for me! 😀). Both groups are a lost part of the LDS colonization efforts here. I have a talk I give to LDS groups entitled "The Characters in the Colonies." They always seem to get a good laugh out of it. I do talks at lots of family reunions. I enjoy those- we usually share both laughter and tears. The history you will read is fascinating - and some of it is even true! Ha! Oh, and Fay Wray was from the polygamous side of the Jones who went to Alberta instead of Mexico. She actually also starred in a fictionalized version of the life of Francisco Villa way back in 1933 or 1934. The movie is historical fiction. I forget the name of the movie, but it is hilarious, tragic, stereotypical, and fascinating, all at the same time.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Navidad

[Calm]

54 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I forget the name of the movie, but it is hilarious, tragic, stereotypical, and fascinating, all at the same time.

Google says “Viva Villa!”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viva_Villa!

[Hamilton Porter]

I think the coverup is worse than the massacre. The massacre was necessary as a deterrent to the USA from harassing Deseret (or whatever it's called).

[Tacenda]

19 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

I think the coverup is worse than the massacre. The massacre was necessary as a deterrent to the USA from harassing Deseret (or whatever it's called).

I may be reading this out of context, but what the ??????

[Hamilton Porter]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I may be reading this out of context, but what the ??????

I feel bad for the victims. But I think it was critical for Deseret to send a signal to the United States, which was constantly breathing down its neck, that it will take action against intruders.