Limits of evil on the earth

[Kenngo1969]

Fortunately (in some cases), and unfortunately (in others), the way that evil is limited is by the extent to which anyone pays heed to The Evil One.  The less heed one pays him, the less evil there is on the earth (see Matthew 4:1-11); the more heed one pays him, the more evil there is on the earth (see Alma 3:26-27).  If I am free to choose, and I believe I am (see 2 Nephi 2:27), then I can choose how much evil there is in my life.*

For now, we live in a fallen world in which it seems that evil is having quite its day, and, certainly, I would be the last to minimize that state of affairs.  However, in the end ... as though we were reading, again, a book that, already, we have read once, or as though we were seeing a movie that, already, we have seen once ... we know Who Wins.  For now, one does the best one can to fight the most valiant battle one can against one's Adversary.

_________________

*I am aware, acutely, that people, through no fault of their own, may have great evil visited upon them, and that is tragic, truly.  However, even such people are free to choose whether to return "evil for evil."  Perhaps each of us knows someone who has what may be the greatest courage we know, the courage to avoid returning evil for evil.

[california boy]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

It's kind of interesting that you've brought this up because I was just thinking about this yesterday.  I really can't imagine living a life where what I want to do is the standard I use for whether or not I should do it.  And that probably sounds like it's coming from a snarky place but I don't mean it like that.  I just honestly cannot imagine a life where the end all/be all is doing what I want when I want. 

It probably would feel like a vacation, for sure.  

I don't know that anyone lives a life where they do just what they want to do.  For me the difference is that the first part of my life, I lived trying to conform what others wanted me to be using the name of God.  The second half of my life, I lived trying to be a better version of who I was and who I feel God is guiding me to be. 

[california boy]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

It's kind of interesting that you've brought this up because I was just thinking about this yesterday.  I really can't imagine living a life where what I want to do is the standard I use for whether or not I should do it.  And that probably sounds like it's coming from a snarky place but I don't mean it like that.  I just honestly cannot imagine a life where the end all/be all is doing what I want when I want. 

It probably would feel like a vacation, for sure.  

I don't know that anyone lives a life where they do just what they want to do.  For me the difference is that the first part of my life, I lived trying to conform what others wanted me to be using the name of God.  The second half of my life, I lived trying to be a better version of who I was and who I feel God is guiding me to be. 

 

[bluebell]

7 hours ago, california boy said:

I don't know that anyone lives a life where they do just what they want to do.  For me the difference is that the first part of my life, I lived trying to conform what others wanted me to be using the name of God.  The second half of my life, I lived trying to be a better version of who I was and who I feel God is guiding me to be. 

 

I had watched a show on a world-renowned skier on Sunday, and her explanation of the kind of life that she lives is what caused me to be pondering living a life only for yourself yesterday. 

I'm sure she's made many sacrifices throughout the decades to become who and what she has become, but in the end, she said that she made all of those sacrifices because she wanted to ski more than she wanted anything else. She has no kids, no spouse, no job other than skiing.  She travels extensively (she's a high mountain skier), coming and going when it suits her.  She has no other responsibilities than serving her desire to ski and be really really really good at it.

That's what I was talking about when I talked about living a life where you just do what you want when you want to do it.  I can't relate to that kind of a life.  

But I am sorry if I implied that you were living that kind of a life.  I can't imagine that anyone who has kids or a sincere belief in God could live that way.  At the same time though, there is an aspect of your life that I also can't relate to, and it is the implication (and maybe you didn't imply it and I've completely misunderstood you) that living a "my life feels like a vacation" type of life means never having to conform to another's version of you which requires sacrifices you don't want to make.

Because I am not really much like Jesus, and because I believe that the most happiness is to be found being like Him, one of my life's focuses is to work to conform myself to what He wants me to be (which is often uncomfortable and not at all what I actually want to do).  So a life that doesn't include "sacrifice to conform" to a large degree is foreign to me and I could see why leaving it would feel like a vacation.  Shedding responsibilities that you don't want is an amazing feeling.

Not that you don't also believe in conforming to who God wants you to be.  I think we just have very different ideas of what God requires of us to ultimately do that.   Again, I could be completely misunderstanding you, but your idea of it seems to revolve around an "if it makes you happy then God is good with it" focus. 

 

[bluebell]

22 hours ago, california boy said:

 

I was thinking more about all the work God put into making a universe, populating a really beautiful earth with plants, animals, resources, humans etc.  Then the whole war in heaven thing where 30% are lost right off the bat before the whole thing even starts.  The results seem to be a very small Utah based religion that a small fraction of 1% of the worlds population participates in.  If you buy into the whole essential role the Church is suppose to play in his plan, to me, it just doesn't seem to be working all that great.  It seems like an epoch failure given the resources that went into this plan.    

I wanted to come back to this point that you made.

I think it all comes down to understanding the purpose of a fallen state.  If we don't know the purpose of it, or don't believe there is a purpose, then yes, your observations above make sense.  But when we know that there is purpose in being "raised" in this fallen state, then all the fallen-ness that comes with that doesn't seem like an epoch failure at all.   

[california boy]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I had watched a show on a world-renowned skier on Sunday, and her explanation of the kind of life that she lives is what caused me to be pondering living a life only for yourself yesterday. 

I'm sure she's made many sacrifices throughout the decades to become who and what she has become, but in the end, she said that she made all of those sacrifices because she wanted to ski more than she wanted anything else. She has no kids, no spouse, no job other than skiing.  She travels extensively (she's a high mountain skier), coming and going when it suits her.  She has no other responsibilities than serving her desire to ski and be really really really good at it.

That's what I was talking about when I talked about living a life where you just do what you want when you want to do it.  I can't relate to that kind of a life.  

But I am sorry if I implied that you were living that kind of a life.  I can't imagine that anyone who has kids or a sincere belief in God could live that way.  At the same time though, there is an aspect of your life that I also can't relate to, and it is the implication (and maybe you didn't imply it and I've completely misunderstood you) that living a "my life feels like a vacation" type of life means never having to conform to another's version of you which requires sacrifices you don't want to make.

Because I am not really much like Jesus, and because I believe that the most happiness is to be found being like Him, one of my life's focuses is to work to conform myself to what He wants me to be (which is often uncomfortable and not at all what I actually want to do).  So a life that doesn't include "sacrifice to conform" to a large degree is foreign to me and I could see why leaving it would feel like a vacation.  Shedding responsibilities that you don't want is an amazing feeling.

Thanks for your answer.  I find this to be an interesting discussion.  I haven't really though about my life looking anything like Jesus's life.  But when you mentioned it, that did make me think.  Christ didn't really conform to what the Church leaders were telling him what he should do and how he should conform. They became so angry with him not conforming and bowing to their version of God, that ultimately it lead to his death.  

I see a Christ that was close to his Heavenly Father and prayed to Him to do his will.  He rarely attended Church because he didn't rely on that as being his source of guidance.  In fact, it was completely unimportant to him what the church did or taught.  I wonder what kind of Mormon he would be.

Quote

 

Not that you don't also believe in conforming to who God wants you to be.  I think we just have very different ideas of what God requires of us to ultimately do that.   Again, I could be completely misunderstanding you, but your idea of it seems to revolve around an "if it makes you happy then God is good with it" focus. 

 

I think this might be the part that you don't really understand.  My life does evolve around what makes me happy.  But a large part of making me happy is helping others find their own happiness.  Being of service to others.  Caring for my family and my partner. I have traveled a lot in my life.  But not so much in the tourist way of traveling.  When I go somewhere it is never for a week or two, but rather for months at a time.  I don't want to see the sites as much as learn the culture and connect with people who have a completely different view on life.  I will give you a little example.  A couple of years ago, I spent about a month in Thailand.  One of the things I did there was go on a 4 day trek up into the mountains.  While doing the trek, I got the opportunity to talk to someone who is Buddhist.  I never had given that much thought to that religion because, well, it is not Christ centered.  But in talking with this young man, I found out that they too serve missions but in a very different way.  You might find this article interesting that compares Mormon missionaries with Buddhist missionaries.  I also found out that they to live by 8 commandments that are almost identical to the 10 commandments minus the first two.  They also have scriptures, but no one tells them how to interput those scriptures, it is up to them to pray and find out for themselves what those scriptures mean in their lives.  I walked away from that experience with a completely different understanding of Buddhism.  It is those kinds of experiences that motivates me to travel.  

I also was in one of their beautiful temples one day while the priest was dipping a bundle of straw in a bowl of water and sprinkling it on those that came to worship.  He was blessing them and then tie a string around their wrist.  I stood in the back, just quietly watching.  When all of the people were blessed and left, the priest motioned me to come over.  He sprinkled water on me and also tied a string around my wrist.  He explained to me that I should not untie it or cut it, but to wear it until it fell off to remember this blessing.  I was so touched that he was so inclusive, even to this American, that I did wear that string for about two years until it did fall off.  During those two years, it was a constant reminder for me to look for the outsider and to remember to include everyone.  And yeah, it does make me happy..

I could keep writing about the devotion and dedication I have seen people from other cultures in their spiritual journey's that convinced me this idea of one religion, one sect, being the best way back to God no long rings true.  I was such a conformist during my years in the Church, beating myself up constantly because I wasn't fitting in.  Not on the outside, but on the inside.  People all around me had no idea.  They just saw me as a faithful member fulfilling the assignments given to me the best I could.  While I got their recognition, it felt hollow and empty because no matter how hard I tried, I would never fit.  When I left the Church, for the first time, it felt like I could breath.  

I am not saying that your life should change.  I firmly believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the right place for a lot of people.  But don't confuse people who find another path as being a path they choose for their own selfish pleasures.

Sorry for such a long post.  But sometimes, short answers doesn't really allow for an adiquate answer.

Edited September 28, 2022 by california boy

[california boy]

30 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I wanted to come back to this point that you made.

I think it all comes down to understanding the purpose of a fallen state.  If we don't know the purpose of it, or don't believe there is a purpose, then yes, your observations above make sense.  But when we know that there is purpose in being "raised" in this fallen state, then all the fallen-ness that comes with that doesn't seem like an epoch failure at all.   

Oh I totally understand the purpose of a fallen state.  What I no longer buy into is that members of the Church are the only ones on the right, or covenanted path back to God.  The Church's view is that they can repent and accept those covenants when they die.  But doesn't that make those covenants meaningless for this life?  

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Thanks for your answer.  I find this to be an interesting discussion.  I haven't really though about my life looking anything like Jesus's life.  But when you mentioned it, that did make me think.  Christ didn't really conform to what the Church leaders were telling him what he should do and how he should conform. They became so angry with him not conforming and bowing to their version of God, that ultimately it lead to his death.  

I see a Christ that was close to his Heavenly Father and prayed to Him to do his will.  He rarely attended Church because he didn't rely on that as being his source of guidance.  In fact, it was completely unimportant to him what the church did or taught.  I wonder what kind of Mormon he would be.

That's an interesting take on Jesus, but not one that I think it supported by scriptures. 

Christ was very careful to fulfill His religious obligations (and we have multiple examples of Him attending "church").  He obeyed the Law of Moses perfectly (though not the added stuff that was important to the Pharisees).

He disagreed with the religious interpretation of most of the leaders of His day for sure, but He did so by quoting earlier prophets and religious leaders.  Much of His message was repent and return to the correct teachings taught in previous generations.  Clearly we can't say that He didn't conform the teachings of the prophets or scripture.  He just didn't conform to the presiding religious council's current interpretation of those prophets and scriptures.  

Quote

 

I think this might be the part that you don't really understand.  My life does evolve around what makes me happy.  But a large part of making me happy is helping others find their own happiness.  Being of service to others.  Caring for my family and my partner. I have traveled a lot in my life.  But not so much in the tourist way of traveling.  When I go somewhere it is never for a week or two, but rather for months at a time.  I don't want to see the sites as much as learn the culture and connect with people who have a completely different view on life.  I will give you a little example.  A couple of years ago, I spent about a month in Thailand.  One of the things I did there was go on a 4 day trek up into the mountains.  While doing the trek, I got the opportunity to talk to someone who is Buddhist.  I never had given that much thought to that religion because, well, it is not Christ centered.  But in talking with this young man, I found out that they too serve missions but in a very different way.  You might find this article interesting that compares Mormon missionaries with Buddhist missionaries.  I also found out that they to live by 8 commandments that are almost identical to the 10 commandments minus the first two.  They also have scriptures, but no one tells them how to interput those scriptures, it is up to them to pray and find out for themselves what those scriptures mean in their lives.  I walked away from that experience with a completely different understanding of Buddhism.  It is those kinds of experiences that motivates me to travel.  

I also was in one of their beautiful temples one day while the priest was dipping a bundle of straw in a bowl of water and sprinkling it on those that came to worship.  He was blessing them and then tie a string around their wrist.  I stood in the back, just quietly watching.  When all of the people were blessed and left, the priest motioned me to come over.  He sprinkled water on me and also tied a string around my wrist.  He explained to me that I should not untie it or cut it, but to wear it until it fell off to remember this blessing.  I was so touched that he was so inclusive, even to this American, that I did wear that string for about two years until it did fall off.  During those two years, it was a constant reminder for me to look for the outsider and to remember to include everyone.  And yeah, it does make me happy..

I could keep writing about the devotion and dedication I have seen people from other cultures in their spiritual journey that convinced me this idea of one religion, one sect, being the best way back to God no long rings true.  I was such a conformist during my years in the Church, beating myself up constantly because I wasn't fitting in.  Not on the outside, but on the inside.  People all around me had no idea.  They just saw me as a faithful member fulfilling the assignments given to me the best I could.  While I got their recognition, it felt hollow and empty because no matter how hard I tried, I would never fit.  When I left the Church, for the first time, it felt like I could breath.  

I am not saying that your life should change.  I firmly believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the right place for a lot of people.  But don't confuse people who find another path as being a path they choose for their own selfish pleasures.

Sorry for such a long post.  But sometimes, short answers doesn't really allow for an adequate answer.

 

Yes, I have studied Buddhism a bit (almost minored in philosophy and the study of non Christian religions) and I can relate to their religious practice in many ways and have much respect for it.  My post wasn't meant to imply that only Christians believe in a high demand God or high demand higher purpose.  Many religious (Christian and not) believe in that way of life.  My point was that I understand that perspective much better.  It makes more sense to me.

As to the bold, I apologize again for being unclear.  I understand that those two things are very different.  I'm not talking about a "selfish pleasures" path in life but about a religious path that is centered on a low-demand God or low-demand religious purpose. 

I don't think it's an evil belief system or anything of the sort, I just can't relate to worshipping that way.  I've tried in the past and so far there hasn't been anything that I've been able to do to convince myself that religious observance is meant to be low-demand.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Oh I totally understand the purpose of a fallen state.  What I no longer buy into is that members of the Church are the only ones on the right, or covenanted path back to God.  The Church's view is that they can repent and accept those covenants when they die.  But doesn't that make those covenants meaningless for this life?  

I don't see it that way.  I'll use an example to explain my perspective better.

My son went to a charter high school here in Utah, and it allowed him to graduate high school with an Associate of Science, with zero cost to himself.  He did this by taking advantage of some of the programs offered at his high school, and working hard to maintain a grade point average that made him eligible.  My other son is attending the same school, and he is set to graduate in May, but not with his AS.  He could have but it wasn't that important to him so he didn't do what he needed to do to make that happen.  But besides that, the school would not have let him anyway.  He showed the school through his other classes that he likely would not have been successful taking that many college classes and would have instead done more harm than good (because bad grades on college classes stay on your permanent college transcripts, even if you get them in high school).  It was in his best interest--because of the choices he was making--not to attempt the associate program in high school.  But he'll have the chance after he graduates and goes to college, if that's what he wants.

Now--to go back to your post--would it be logical to say that because my second son can get an AS after high school, that that means that my oldest son's high school AS is meaningless?  No, of course not!  There are advantages to my oldest getting his AS as a high schooler (many of them), even though the AS is also offered to people after high school as well.

Just like there are many many advantages of making covenants with God and keeping them while we are in this life, even though the opportunity is also offered to people after this life is over.

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I had watched a show on a world-renowned skier on Sunday, and her explanation of the kind of life that she lives is what caused me to be pondering living a life only for yourself yesterday. 

I'm sure she's made many sacrifices throughout the decades to become who and what she has become, but in the end, she said that she made all of those sacrifices because she wanted to ski more than she wanted anything else. She has no kids, no spouse, no job other than skiing.  She travels extensively (she's a high mountain skier), coming and going when it suits her.  She has no other responsibilities than serving her desire to ski and be really really really good at it.

That's what I was talking about when I talked about living a life where you just do what you want when you want to do it.  I can't relate to that kind of a life.  

But I am sorry if I implied that you were living that kind of a life.  I can't imagine that anyone who has kids or a sincere belief in God could live that way.  At the same time though, there is an aspect of your life that I also can't relate to, and it is the implication (and maybe you didn't imply it and I've completely misunderstood you) that living a "my life feels like a vacation" type of life means never having to conform to another's version of you which requires sacrifices you don't want to make.

Because I am not really much like Jesus, and because I believe that the most happiness is to be found being like Him, one of my life's focuses is to work to conform myself to what He wants me to be (which is often uncomfortable and not at all what I actually want to do).  So a life that doesn't include "sacrifice to conform" to a large degree is foreign to me and I could see why leaving it would feel like a vacation.  Shedding responsibilities that you don't want is an amazing feeling.

Not that you don't also believe in conforming to who God wants you to be.  I think we just have very different ideas of what God requires of us to ultimately do that.   Again, I could be completely misunderstanding you, but your idea of it seems to revolve around an "if it makes you happy then God is good with it" focus. 

 

But are some things you are told coming through the church and not God? That's the problem, IMO. ETA: Probably need to edit to explain. I did things because of the teachings in the church at points in my lifetime that now I regret. Like giving up my education to start a family, didn't finish college. Was told to start a family and not wait, got married while working and attending college part time. But I like that I didn't wait too long for sure. But at different points in life women and men are told things and then soon things are not spoken of as much. Such as food storage, I have so much wheat I don't know what to do with it. So maybe we should have been told to do it differently. Maybe we need to go with our own intuition or gut as well. Or foremost. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Tacenda

[Rock_N_Roll]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I had watched a show on a world-renowned skier on Sunday, and her explanation of the kind of life that she lives is what caused me to be pondering living a life only for yourself yesterday. 

I'm sure she's made many sacrifices throughout the decades to become who and what she has become, but in the end, she said that she made all of those sacrifices because she wanted to ski more than she wanted anything else. She has no kids, no spouse, no job other than skiing.  She travels extensively (she's a high mountain skier), coming and going when it suits her.  She has no other responsibilities than serving her desire to ski and be really really really good at it.

That's what I was talking about when I talked about living a life where you just do what you want when you want to do it.  I can't relate to that kind of a life.  

But I am sorry if I implied that you were living that kind of a life.  I can't imagine that anyone who has kids or a sincere belief in God could live that way.  At the same time though, there is an aspect of your life that I also can't relate to, and it is the implication (and maybe you didn't imply it and I've completely misunderstood you) that living a "my life feels like a vacation" type of life means never having to conform to another's version of you which requires sacrifices you don't want to make.

Because I am not really much like Jesus, and because I believe that the most happiness is to be found being like Him, one of my life's focuses is to work to conform myself to what He wants me to be (which is often uncomfortable and not at all what I actually want to do).  So a life that doesn't include "sacrifice to conform" to a large degree is foreign to me and I could see why leaving it would feel like a vacation.  Shedding responsibilities that you don't want is an amazing feeling.

Not that you don't also believe in conforming to who God wants you to be.  I think we just have very different ideas of what God requires of us to ultimately do that.   Again, I could be completely misunderstanding you, but your idea of it seems to revolve around an "if it makes you happy then God is good with it" focus. 

 

I hope it wasn't this skier! 

https://nypost.com/2022/09/28/hilaree-nelsons-body-found-after-going-missing-in-himalayas/

[california boy]

28 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That's an interesting take on Jesus, but not one that I think it supported by scriptures. 

Christ was very careful to fulfill His religious obligations (and we have multiple examples of Him attending "church").  He obeyed the Law of Moses perfectly (though not the added stuff that was important to the Pharisees).

He disagreed with the religious interpretation of most of the leaders of His day for sure, but He did so by quoting earlier prophets and religious leaders.  Much of His message was repent and return to the correct teachings taught in previous generations.  Clearly we can't say that He didn't conform the teachings of the prophets or scripture.  He just didn't conform to the presiding religious council's current interpretation of those prophets and scriptures.  

Yes, I have studied Buddhism a bit (almost minored in philosophy and the study of non Christian religions) and I can relate to their religious practice in many ways and have much respect for it.  My post wasn't meant to imply that only Christians believe in a high demand God or high demand higher purpose.  Many religious (Christian and not) believe in that way of life.  My point was that I understand that perspective much better.  It makes more sense to me.

As to the bold, I apologize again for being unclear.  I understand that those two things are very different.  I'm not talking about a "selfish pleasures" path in life but about a religious path that is centered on a low-demand God or low-demand religious purpose. 

I don't think it's an evil belief system or anything of the sort, I just can't relate to worshipping that way.  I've tried in the past and so far there hasn't been anything that I've been able to do to convince myself that religious observance is meant to be low-demand.

I think what I was trying to say about Christ's religious practices was they were nothing like the way Mormonism is practiced.  While he attended synagog occasionally, he also made it clear that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.  I doubt very much he was a weekly attender to church services.  At best, he would be considered less active.  His relationship with God was much more a personal relationship rather than institutional.  That doesn't mean that scriptures are not important.  But oddly enough, he mostly used scriptures to prove his point to church leaders in a language they would have to consider.

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

I hope it wasn't this skier! 

https://nypost.com/2022/09/28/hilaree-nelsons-body-found-after-going-missing-in-himalayas/

It wasn't.  And that is so sad!

[california boy]

26 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't see it that way.  I'll use an example to explain my perspective better.

My son went to a charter high school here in Utah, and it allowed him to graduate high school with an Associate of Science, with zero cost to himself.  He did this by taking advantage of some of the programs offered at his high school, and working hard to maintain a grade point average that made him eligible.  My other son is attending the same school, and he is set to graduate in May, but not with his AS.  He could have but it wasn't that important to him so he didn't do what he needed to do to make that happen.  But besides that, the school would not have let him anyway.  He showed the school through his other classes that he likely would not have been successful taking that many college classes and would have instead done more harm than good (because bad grades on college classes stay on your permanent college transcripts, even if you get them in high school).  It was in his best interest--because of the choices he was making--not to attempt the associate program in high school.  But he'll have the chance after he graduates and goes to college, if that's what he wants.

Now--to go back to your post--would it be logical to say that because my second son can get an AS after high school, that that means that my oldest son's high school AS is meaningless?  No, of course not!  There are advantages to my oldest getting his AS as a high schooler (many of them), even though the AS is also offered to people after high school as well.

Just like there are many many advantages of making covenants with God and keeping them while we are in this life, even though the opportunity is also offered to people after this life is over.

Nice analogy.  Your point is clear.  But what I am still not clear on is what advantage is there to making covenants with God in this life?  What are you getting out of that that you wouldn't get if you didn't make those covenants. I think back when I was in college, I took huge class loads in order to finsh college as soon as possible.  Looking back, I wondered what the hurry was.  I kinda wished that I had taken it a little slower and enjoyed the experience of college more.  

ETA: Tacenda addresses some of the same issues that I am getting at.  It is like the Church maps out your life to the point where you just take one step before the next and if you aren't moving forward, then you must be doing something wrong.  Sometimes you miss some important lessons in life by being in such a hurry.  And sometimes you rush into things that, while it might be right for some people, it might not have been right for you.  The whole young men must marry asap and if they are gay, they will become straight thing totally messed up a lot of peoples lives and their families.  And I am not just talking about the gay ones.  Feeling pressured to marry early when maybe that is not what that person needs so young in life.  While it can work for many, it doesn't work for all.  Following Church leaders doesn't always mean it is the right thing to do.  And gaging one's worthiness based on how obedient one is to those directives can be disastrous when it all falls apart.

Edited September 28, 2022 by california boy

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

But are some things you are told coming through the church and not God? That's the problem, IMO. ETA: Probably need to edit to explain. I did things because of the teachings in the church at points in my lifetime that now I regret. Like giving up my education to start a family, didn't finish college. Was told to start a family and not wait, got married while working and attending college part time. But I like that I didn't wait too long for sure. But at different points in life women and men are told things and then soon things are not spoken of as much. Such as food storage, I have so much wheat I don't know what to do with it. So maybe we should have been told to do it differently. Maybe we need to go with our own intuition or gut as well. Or foremost. 

I think we do have to learn to balance doing something just because we are told to do it and doing it because we are told to do it and God has said that it is right for us.  This is especially true for those "peripheral" teachings like not waiting to start a family or how to go about storing food.

Everything that comes to me from God is coming through a mortal lense (even if it has nothing to do with the church, I am mortal and it still has to come through me) so it'll always be coming to us through a glass darkly, as Paul says. 

That is a problem of sorts, I agree. But one that we can work with. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Nice analogy.  Your point is clear.  But what I am still not clear on is what advantage is there to making covenants with God in this life?  What are you getting out of that that you wouldn't get if you didn't make those covenants. 

In general, the plainest answer is help, guidance, knowledge, and the grace of Christ to help you in ways that you don't get without that covenantal relationship.  However, in my experience people who believe they are "good" without those things, or who believe they can have them all without the covenantal relationship, are less likely to be convinced those things are of any worth.

It's kind of like trying to convince someone who doesn't want kids, of all the blessings that come with having kids and how worth the sacrifices they are.  It's a tough sell for people who sincerely don't see the need to change anything in their lives.

(And again, I'm speaking generally.  This is all between the person and God and He'll do what He will.  I have no desire to judge people specifically on how close of a relationship they have with God)

Edited September 28, 2022 by bluebell

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I think what I was trying to say about Christ's religious practices was they were nothing like the way Mormonism is practiced.  While he attended synagog occasionally, he also made it clear that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.  I doubt very much he was a weekly attender to church services.  At best, he would be considered less active.  His relationship with God was much more a personal relationship rather than institutional.  That doesn't mean that scriptures are not important.  But oddly enough, he mostly used scriptures to prove his point to church leaders in a language they would have to consider.

You're making a lot of assumptions with nothing to back them up though.  You can doubt this or believe that, but it's not substantiated (and it requires that you ignore a lot that is in the text).

[california boy]

22 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You're making a lot of assumptions with nothing to back them up though.  You can doubt this or believe that, but it's not substantiated (and it requires that you ignore a lot that is in the text).

I am sure we all look to scriptures to verify our own preconceived views.  I get that.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts.  

Edited September 28, 2022 by california boy

[CV75]

On 9/26/2022 at 7:11 PM, california boy said:

At some point, shouldn't there be an executive review in heaven to revaluate the Plan of Salvation and come up with a few better options??  I mean what percentage of the human population have had a successful experience on earth?  It seems like a lot of work for such little reward.  

It may seem counterintuitive, but I'm sure you agree with the sentiment that God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of His children. That is all He does (See Moses 1: 37 - 38). He does it whether we choose to accept His work and glory in our fulfillment and accept it as our own.