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On 9/1/2022 at 4:10 PM, Tacenda said:

I need only look around at every creation to know some thing or creator is out there. I don't believe it's a big bang thing, but something created the big bang to begin with.

#1 As Joseph Smith did teach that, “all things denote there is a God”, I often wonder how people can see the eearth, and the stars above, and still cannot believe. 

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On 10/5/2022 at 12:06 PM, Brahms said:

I don't know if God our our Father in heaven ever committed a sin.  I do know that regardless of whether or not he ever did, he is now as though he never did. 

That is how it can be for us too.  Someday some people will wonder if I ever committed a sin, and they will doubt that I did.  They won't know, either way.  They weren't around then and would have no way to know unless I told them.

Which time blip is "ever"?  "Never" is a relative term in this context!

He has a new name and is the same new person.  ;)  Or not?

He who has been dead for perhaps eons still lives.   In what sense is He even the same "person"?   Nietzsche was right- God is dead, but N didn't go far enough-  but we can add- God may be dead, but long live God, just as the Brits do with their kings and queens!   Neitzsche was definitely an atheist though, of course, and clearly anti-Christian.  He was attacking not "real Christianity" but the Christianity he knew in Germany- Protestant fundamentalism, including the idea that if you did not know about Jesus, it was burn in hell forever.  THAT is the god Nietzsche called "dead".

But Nietzche also had an idea called "eternal recurrance"- that it was that the goal was to live your life in such a way that you could wish to repeat all of your life- every moment ever success and every failure, again and again into infinity for ever.  The goal was to live so that you could affirm your life just as it was, forever.

But Neitzsche's view is not our subject-

The question is in what sense is our wonderful Father in Heaven the same "person" who lived in another whole time refernce, -- and who knows how "long ago" that would be.

But then we are trying to see God's "history" which is of course totally impossible.   We don't usually even think in that context

Well of course

How old is our universe?  We observe- whatever it is- I think 13 billion years or something.  But Father is not within our time reference.    Our time is like a dot on a yardstick while we are discussing 13 billion light years of distance/ time/ eternity- Universes beyond universes- turtles all the way down!

So in my opinion, there is no possibility of following the path you seem to be exploring here-   There is not even a reference possible to define what we would be talking about if in fact we were ABLE to do so!!  ;)

 

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22 hours ago, Navidad said:

I would once again suggest that there is no difference I can think of between the Catholic concept of the Godhead, its nature, current status, or makeup and that of Evangelicals or more broadly of Protestants.

Just for the record, I believe there are VAST differences.  The trinity is "consubstantial" meaning "of one substance".   That makes no sense in the LDS context.  Our Godhead is unified by purpose and the goal of "bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind"

"Substance" is undefinabe, whereas our notion is very easy to define and understand.  The three persons of the Godhead are unified the way people like you and me can be unified- by working together on a common goal, and perhaps assuming we were in the same "family".   Unfortunately I don't know you well enough to define our relationship that way, though clearly we could.  :)

"Substance" on the other hand, is an undefinable metaphysical concept.  The "Trinity", I believe is not a biblical concept, but certainly working together as a family on a major project is commonplace among humans.

I didn't really think I had to bring this up yet again, but after some consideration, I felt that I should.

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On 10/6/2022 at 1:08 AM, Niblo said:

The Bible defines sin as a transgression against the Beloved's law (1 John 3:4). It is also described as disobedience or rebellion against the Beloved (Deuteronomy 9:7), as well as acting as though one is independent from Him. The original translation means ‘to miss the mark’ of the Beloved's holy standard of righteousness.

In what why, therefore, can the Beloved sin against Himself?

 

The point is that some LDS folks believe that God once occupied some universe somewhere else where He lived as a human as we are, and yet he has been exalted to the status of a God over the universe (ours) in which we all live.   Furthermore we can become like Him- somehow in some universe we have created.

 

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23 minutes ago, Brahms said:

Whether or not you agree with me, I still think it's a helpful thought experiment to try to see ourselves as God our Father is now, without any sin, regardless of whether or not he ever sinned in HIS past. He did have a past, and he now is as he is now.

Ok, no problem.  But I think one should label a thought experiment as such, instead of implying that "God IS such and such".  It is a clarity thing.

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9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Just for the record, I believe there are VAST differences.  The trinity is "consubstantial" meaning "of one substance".   That makes no sense in the LDS context.  Our Godhead is unified by purpose and the goal of "bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind"

"Substance" is undefinabe, whereas our notion is very easy to define and understand.  The three persons of the Godhead are unified the way people like you and me can be unified- by working together on a common goal, and perhaps assuming we were in the same "family".   Unfortunately I don't know you well enough to define our relationship that way, though clearly we could.  :)

"Substance" on the other hand, is an undefinable metaphysical concept.  The "Trinity", I believe is not a biblical concept, but certainly working together as a family on a major project is commonplace among humans.

I didn't really think I had to bring this up yet again, but after some consideration, I felt that I should.

Are you just clarifying the Latter-day Saint view  with the “vast differences” or challenging Navidad’s appraisal of the similarity of the Catholic, Protestant/Evangelical views (because I don’t believe he said anything about Latter-day Saints’ views of the Trinity, so I am not sure how your post connects to his)?

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10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Just for the record, I believe there are VAST differences.  The trinity is "consubstantial" meaning "of one substance".   That makes no sense in the LDS context.  Our Godhead is unified by purpose and the goal of "bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind"

"Substance" is undefinabe, whereas our notion is very easy to define and understand.  The three persons of the Godhead are unified the way people like you and me can be unified- by working together on a common goal, and perhaps assuming we were in the same "family".   Unfortunately I don't know you well enough to define our relationship that way, though clearly we could.  :)

"Substance" on the other hand, is an undefinable metaphysical concept.  The "Trinity", I believe is not a biblical concept, but certainly working together as a family on a major project is commonplace among humans.

I didn't really think I had to bring this up yet again, but after some consideration, I felt that I should.

Hey my friend, I said nothing about agreement with LDS beliefs on the subject of the  Godhead. I think you may have misread my post or I simply wasn't clear enough. My comment was all about there is no difference between the Catholic and Protestant concepts of the Godhead. I know there is significant difference between the LDS and both the Catholic and Protestant concept. Thanks and best wishes.

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1 hour ago, Brahms said:

Can you see any differences between the Catholic/Evangelical/Protestant concept of the Godhead and our/LDS concept of the Godhead?  Do you think we we all mean the same thing when we refer to 3 persons who are God in unity with each other?

Hi. Yes I see differences between the LDS Christian concept and the non-LDS Christian concept of the Godhead. What I am interested in is whether or not those differences impact salvific matters. For example I am quite sure that believing in some form of the trinity saves no one. I am equally sure that not believing in the trinity doesn't disqualify anyone from experiencing salvation and sanctification. There certainly are non-trinitarian Protestants and "unsure about trinitarianism" Protestants.  I don't know if there are non-trinitarians in the liberal leftist Catholic fold. I believe an awful lot of what we believe differently from each other are "appendages" to use Joseph Smith's word.

I am very interested right now in studying more about the makeup of humans - body, soul, and spirit, or otherwise. I am trying to get my head around the meaning and significance of Hebrews 4:12 that describes joints and marrow, soul, and spirit. I find the makeup of humanity as or more interesting as the Godhead. Thanks.

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

Are you just clarifying the Latter-day Saint view  with the “vast differences” or challenging Navidad’s appraisal of the similarity of the Catholic, Protestant/Evangelical views (because I don’t believe he said anything about Latter-day Saints’ views of the Trinity, so I am not sure how your post connects to his)?

#2

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43 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Hey my friend, I said nothing about agreement with LDS beliefs on the subject of the  Godhead. I think you may have misread my post or I simply wasn't clear enough. My comment was all about there is no difference between the Catholic and Protestant concepts of the Godhead. I know there is significant difference between the LDS and both the Catholic and Protestant concept. Thanks and best wishes.

There I go skimming and anticipating what will be said rather than reading every word.   You are right, and I was wrong.

Wow! That's two apologies in two days- I had better clean up my act and actually start reading what is said here.  ;)

No more soup for me!  And no more autopilot answers!  The problem is that everything that can be said here HAS been said at least a hundred times.  ;)

I think of that old joke about a new prisoner in jail spending his first night- and he hears other prisoners yelling out numbers, followed by everyone else laughing.  He yells out "Two-hundred" and gets no laughs.

He yells out "Hey- how come you guys didn't laugh?"   A voice came back "That book ain't that big- it stops at 157!

Newbie: "I don't get it-- can you explain what is happening?"

Voice: "Oh, some guy had a joke book we passed around and we all memorized the pages numbers and the jokes, so now all we hafta do is say the page number!"

 

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1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Hi. Yes I see differences between the LDS Christian concept and the non-LDS Christian concept of the Godhead. What I am interested in is whether or not those differences impact salvific matters. For example I am quite sure that believing in some form of the trinity saves no one. I am equally sure that not believing in the trinity doesn't disqualify anyone from experiencing salvation and sanctification. There certainly are non-trinitarian Protestants and "unsure about trinitarianism" Protestants.  I don't know if there are non-trinitarians in the liberal leftist Catholic fold. I believe an awful lot of what we believe differently from each other are "appendages" to use Joseph Smith's word.

I am very interested right now in studying more about the makeup of humans - body, soul, and spirit, or otherwise. I am trying to get my head around the meaning and significance of Hebrews 4:12 that describes joints and marrow, soul, and spirit. I find the makeup of humanity as or more interesting as the Godhead. Thanks.

I love this site.  It claims to give EVERY ENGLISH translation published.

I kind of like the "WE" version the best, "insofar as they are translated correctly."   It gives one an idea of how much translation affects the meaning, for those who have never tried to "translate" anything!   https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hebrews 4:12

I like the idea of dividing the "mind" from the "spirit"; to me that means dividing the philosophies of men from spiritual testimony.  In other words the scriptures can in one sense be interpreted logically or spiritually, and the trick is to know which is which.

Quote

 

HEBREWS 4:12

KJ21

For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

ASV

For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.

AMP

For the word of God is living and active and full of power [making it operative, energizing, and effective]. It is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating as far as the division of the soul and spirit [the completeness of a person], and of both joints and marrow [the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and judging the very thoughts and intentions of the heart.

AMPC

For the Word that God speaks is alive and full of power [making it active, operative, energizing, and effective]; it is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating to the dividing line of the breath of life (soul) and [the immortal] spirit, and of joints and marrow [of the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart.

BRG

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

CSB

For the word of God is living and effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, penetrating as far as the separation of soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

CEB

because God’s word is living, active, and sharper than any two-edged sword. It penetrates to the point that it separates the soul from the spirit and the joints from the marrow. It’s able to judge the heart’s thoughts and intentions.

CJB

See, the Word of God is alive! It is at work and is sharper than any double-edged sword — it cuts right through to where soul meets spirit and joints meet marrow, and it is quick to judge the inner reflections and attitudes of the heart.

CEV

God's word is alive and powerful! It is sharper than any double-edged sword. His word can cut through our spirits and souls and through our joints and marrow, until it discovers the desires and thoughts of our hearts.

DARBY

For the word of God [is] living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to [the] division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of [the] heart.

DLNT

For the word of God is living and effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, and piercing as-far-as the division of soul and spirit, and joints and marrows, and able-to-judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

DRA

For the word of God is living and effectual, and more piercing than any two edged sword; and reaching unto the division of the soul and the spirit, of the joints also and the marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

ERV

God’s word is alive and working. It is sharper than the sharpest sword and cuts all the way into us. It cuts deep to the place where the soul and the spirit are joined. God’s word cuts to the center of our joints and our bones. It judges the thoughts and feelings in our hearts.

EHV

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any double-edged sword. It penetrates even to the point of dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow, even being able to judge the ideas and thoughts of the heart.

ESV

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

ESVUK

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

EXB

[L For] God’s word is alive and ·working [active; powerful; effective] and is sharper than a double-edged sword. It ·cuts all the way into us, where the soul and the spirit are joined, to the center of our joints and bones [L penetrates until it divides even soul and spirit, joints and marrow]. And it ·judges [discerns] the ·thoughts [ideas] and ·feelings [attitudes; intentions] in our hearts.

GNV

For the word of God is lively, and mighty in operation, and sharper than any two edged sword, and entereth through, even unto the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, and of the joints, and the marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts, and the intents of the heart.

GW

God’s word is living and active. It is sharper than any two-edged sword and cuts as deep as the place where soul and spirit meet, the place where joints and marrow meet. God’s word judges a person’s thoughts and intentions.

GNT

The word of God is alive and active, sharper than any double-edged sword. It cuts all the way through, to where soul and spirit meet, to where joints and marrow come together. It judges the desires and thoughts of the heart.

HCSB

For the word of God is living and effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, penetrating as far as the separation of soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the ideas and thoughts of the heart.

ICB

God’s word is alive and working. It is sharper than a sword sharpened on both sides. It cuts all the way into us, where the soul and the spirit are joined. It cuts to the center of our joints and our bones. And God’s word judges the thoughts and feelings in our hearts.

ISV

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul and spirit, joints and marrow, as it judges the thoughts and purposes of the heart.

PHILLIPS

Let us then be eager to know this rest for ourselves, and let us beware that no one misses it through falling into the same kind of unbelief as those we have mentioned. For the Word that God speaks is alive and active; it cuts more keenly than any two-edged sword: it strikes through to the place where soul and spirit meet, to the innermost intimacies of a man’s being: it exposes the very thoughts and motives of a man’s heart. No creature has any cover from the sight of God; everything lies naked and exposed before the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

JUB

For the word of God is alive and efficient and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

KJV

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

AKJV

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

LEB

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any double-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, both joints and marrow, and able to judge the reflections and thoughts of the heart.

TLB

For whatever God says to us is full of living power: it is sharper than the sharpest dagger, cutting swift and deep into our innermost thoughts and desires with all their parts, exposing us for what we really are.

MSG

God means what he says. What he says goes. His powerful Word is sharp as a surgeon’s scalpel, cutting through everything, whether doubt or defense, laying us open to listen and obey. Nothing and no one can resist God’s Word. We can’t get away from it—no matter what.

MEV

For the word of God is alive, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intents of the heart.

MOUNCE

For the word of God is living and effective, · sharper than any two-edged sword, · cutting through so as to divide soul from spirit, joints from marrow. It is even able to discern the thoughts and deliberations of the heart.

NOG

God’s word is living and active. It is sharper than any two-edged sword and cuts as deep as the place where soul and spirit meet, the place where joints and marrow meet. God’s word judges a person’s thoughts and intentions.

NABRE

Indeed, the word of God is living and effective, sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating even between soul and spirit, joints and marrow, and able to discern reflections and thoughts of the heart.

NASB

For the word of God is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, even penetrating as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

NASB1995

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

NCB

Indeed, the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any two-edged sword, it pierces to the point where it divides soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and the intentions of the heart.

NCV

God’s word is alive and working and is sharper than a double-edged sword. It cuts all the way into us, where the soul and the spirit are joined, to the center of our joints and bones. And it judges the thoughts and feelings in our hearts.

NET

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing even to the point of dividing soul from spirit, and joints from marrow; it is able to judge the desires and thoughts of the heart.

NIRV

The word of God is alive and active. It is sharper than any sword that has two edges. It cuts deep enough to separate soul from spirit. It can separate bones from joints. It judges the thoughts and purposes of the heart.

NIV

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

NIVUK

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

NKJV

For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

NLV

God’s Word is living and powerful. It is sharper than a sword that cuts both ways. It cuts straight into where the soul and spirit meet and it divides them. It cuts into the joints and bones. It tells what the heart is thinking about and what it wants to do.

NLT

For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires.

NMB

For the word of God is alive and mighty in operation, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and enters through even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and judges the thoughts and intents of the heart;

NRSVA

Indeed, the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

NRSVACE

Indeed, the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

NRSVCE

Indeed, the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

NRSVUE

Indeed, the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

NTE

God’s word is alive, you see! It’s powerful, and it’s sharper than any double-edged sword. It can pierce right in between soul and spirit, or joints and marrow; it can go straight to the point of what the human heart is thinking, or intends to do.

OJB

For the Dvar Hashem is chai (living) and chazak (strong), sharper than every doubled-edged cherev and penetrating as far as the division of nefesh and ruach, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the machshavot and deliberations of the kavanat halev (the inner directedness of the heart).

RGT

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, passing through even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and able to discern the thoughts and the intentions of the heart.

RSV

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

RSVCE

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

TLV

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword—piercing right through to a separation of soul and spirit, joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

VOICE

The word of God, you see, is alive and moving; sharper than a double-edged sword; piercing the divide between soul and spirit, joints and marrow; able to judge the thoughts and will of the heart.

WEB

For the word of God is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

WE

God's word is living and full of power. It is more sharp than any sword that cuts on both sides. What God says cuts through and divides the mind and spirit. It cuts through and divides the place where the bones are joined, and the part inside the bone. What God says is able to judge the things people think and plan in their hearts.

WYC

For the word of God is quick, and speedy in working, and more able to pierce than any twain-edged sword [two-edged sword], and stretcheth forth [till] to the parting of the soul and of the spirit, and of the jointures and marrows, and deemer of thoughts, and of intents of hearts.

YLT

for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart;

 Hebrews 4:11

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Hebrews 4:13

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Edited by mfbukowski
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On 10/6/2022 at 10:57 PM, Brahms said:

...........

 

I wrote:

The Bible defines sin as a transgression against the Beloved's law (1 John 3:4). It is also described as disobedience or rebellion against the Beloved (Deuteronomy 9:7), as well as acting as though one is independent from Him. The original translation means ‘to miss the mark’ of the Beloved's holy standard of righteousness.

‘In what why, therefore, can the Beloved sin against Himself’?

You replied:

‘It would not have been against himself, but against his Father.’ 

As you know, the Saints believe that there are three separate personages in the Godhead: the Eternal Father; His Son, Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām); and the Holy Spirit (ʿalayhi as-salām); and that these three are: ‘One in purpose and doctrine…(and)….perfectly united in bringing to pass Heavenly Father’s divine plan of salvation.’ (‘Doctrine and Covenants and Church History; Study Guide for Home-Study Seminary Students’).

If the Father did not sin against Himself – as you claim – then it must have been one of the other two.

Can it possibly be Yeshua, who:

 Lived a sinless life and made a perfect Atonement for the sins of all mankind (see Alma 7: 11– 13). His life is the perfect example of how all mankind should live (see John 14: 6; 3; Nephi 12: 48)’; and again: ‘The Savior was able to carry out the Atonement because He kept Himself free from sin and had power over death.’ (‘Doctrine and Covenants and Church History; Study Guide for Home-Study Seminary Students’; my emphasis)?

Can it possible be the Holy Spirit, who, according to a doctrine of your community:

‘Bears witness of the Father and the Son, reveals the truth of all things, and sanctifies those who repent and are baptized (see Moroni 10: 4– 5).’ (Ibid.)?

Please state which of these two sinned against the Father; and present your evidence.

Blessings.

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On 10/6/2022 at 10:57 PM, Brahms said:

FYI we believe our Father in heaven was once as we are now and that this "way" of things has gone on forever and ever, with no beginning, because eternity has no overall beginning.

The "in the beginning" of Genesis 1:1 applies to the beginning of this world when this world was created, not to an overall beginning of everything.

 

As you know, it is a doctrine of your community that the earth: ‘Was not created from nothing; it was organized from existing matter’ (see D&C 76: 22– 4).’ (‘Doctrine and Covenants and Church History; Study Guide for Home-Study Seminary Students’; my emphasis).

 You will note that this extract references only the ‘Doctrine and Covenants’.  Not the Bible.  Not the Fathers. 

 We ought not to be surprised by this, since neither the Bible nor the Fathers lend support to this doctrine:

'You, Yahweh, are the one, only Yahweh, you have created the heavens, the heaven of heavens and all their array, the earth and all it bears, the seas and all they hold. To all of them you give life, and the array of heaven worships you.’ (Nehemiah 9:6; my emphasis).

Because that is what He has done. It is He who has rescued us from the ruling force of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son that He loves, and in Him we enjoy our freedom, the forgiveness of sin.  He is the image of the unseen God, the first-born of all creation, for in Him were created all things in heaven and on earth: everything visible and everything invisible, thrones, ruling forces, sovereignties, powers – all things were created through Him and for Him.’ (Colossians 1: 13-16).

The repetition of the expression ‘all things were created’ is meant to express a truth, with emphasis.  The  Beloved is He who brings everything from non-existence to existence; not only the created object itself, but the very substratum from which it is made.  This is what the word ‘creation’ means.  In short, the Beloved creates ‘ex nihilo’, from nothing:

I implore you, my child, look at the earth and sky and everything in them, and consider how God made them out of what did not exist, and that human beings come into being in the same way.’ (2 Maccabees 7:28-290).

You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honour and power, for you made the whole universe; by your will, when it did not exist, it was created.’ (Revelations 4:11; my emphasis).

The Fathers are in agreement (my emphases in every case):

‘Let us proceed then, O King, to the elements themselves that we may show in regard to them that they are not gods, but perishable and mutable, produced out of that which did not exist at the command of the true God, who is indestructible and immutable and invisible,” (Aristides: ‘Apology of Aristides Chapter 4’).

‘God, who dwells in the heavens and made out of nothing the things that exist.’ (Hermas: ‘Shepherd of Hermas, Book 1, Chapter 1’).

‘While men, indeed, cannot make anything out of nothing, but only out of matter already existing, yet God is in this point pre-eminently superior to men, that He Himself called into being the substance of His creation when previously it had no existence.’ (Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapter 10, Section 4).

‘The case stands thus: we can see that the whole structure of the world, and the whole creation, has been produced from matter, and the matter itself brought into existence by God.’ (Tatian: ‘Address to the Greeks, Chapter 12).

“There is one only God, and that He is none other than the Creator of the world, who produced all things out of nothing through His own Word.’ (Tertullian: The Prescription Against Heresies, Chapter 13).

And again:

“The conclusion of the whole is this: I find that there was nothing made, except out of nothing; because that which I find was made, I know did not once exist. Whatever was made out of something, has its origin in something made: for instance, out of the ground was made the grass, and the fruit, and the cattle, and the form of man himself; so from the waters were produced the animals which swim and fly. The original fabrics out of which such creatures were produced I may call their materials, but then even these were created by God,’ (Tertullian: Against Hermogenes, Chapter 33).

It is quite clear that the earliest Christians saw, in the Scriptures, confirmation that the Beloved created – from nothing at all – the very substance, essence, and material of the universe; and that He did so by the power of His word alone.

The Catholic Church teaches that not only did the Beloved create all things, but that He continually preserves their existence. 

The First Vatican Council declared:

‘The holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church believes and confesses that there is one, true, living God, Creator and Lord of heaven and earth, omnipotent, eternal, immense, incomprehensible, infinite in intellect and will, and in every perfection; who, although He is one, singular, altogether simple and unchangeable spiritual substance, must be proclaimed distinct in reality and essence from the world; most blessed in Himself and of Himself, and ineffably most high above all things which are or can be conceived outside Himself.

‘This sole true God by His goodness and "omnipotent power," not to increase His own beatitude, and not to add to, but to manifest His perfection by the blessings which He bestows on creatures, with most free volition, "immediately from the beginning of time fashioned each creature out of nothing, spiritual and corporeal, namely angelic and mundane; and then the human creation, common as it were, composed of both spirit and body" (Lateran Council IV, see n. 428; can. 2 and 5).

‘But God protects and governs by His providence all things which He created, "reaching from end to end mightily and ordering all things sweetly" (cf. Wisd. 8: 1).  For "all things are naked and open to His eyes" (Heb. 4:13), even those which by the free action of creatures are in the future.’ (Denzinger 1782-1784).

In short, if the beloved’s Providence did not preserve all things with the same power with which they were created in the beginning, they would fall back into nothingness immediately.

The Beloved’s preserving love is said to be a continuation of His creative activity.  The Church cites a number of biblical verses in support of this doctrine:

‘And how could a thing subsist, had you not willed it?  Or how be preserved, if not called forth by you?’ (Wisdom 11:25); and again:

His answer to them (the Jews) was, “My Father still goes on working, and I am at work, too.”’ (John 5:17).

‘He (Yeshua) existed before all things and in him all things hold together…’ (Col 1:17).

‘He (Yeshua) is the reflection of God’s glory and bears the impress of God’s own being, sustaining all things by his powerful command.’ (Hebrews 1:3).

The message is clear:  All things depend on the Beloved; not merely for their becoming, but also for every moment of their existence (cf. Summa Theologica: Part 1; Question 104; Article 1).

Blessings.

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On 10/7/2022 at 10:11 AM, mfbukowski said:

The point is that some LDS folks believe that God once occupied some universe somewhere else where He lived as a human as we are, and yet he has been exalted to the status of a God over the universe (ours) in which we all live.   Furthermore we can become like Him- somehow in some universe we have created.

 

Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzatto writes:

‘Every person of Israel must believe and know that there is a pre-existing, eternal First Being. And He brought into being, and brings into being, everything that exists. And that is God, may He be blessed.

‘His perfection: One must also know that the true understanding of this Being, may His name be blessed, is not grasped at all by anyone besides Him. And we only know this about Him: That he is a perfect Being in every type of perfection and there is no deficiency in Him at all.

‘However all of these matters are even validated by way of the investigation of proofs that can be studied. And it is necessary for them to be so based, on what exists and on that which can be comprehended from them – which we see with our (own) eyes – according to the disciplines of science, geometry, astronomy and other disciplines from which you can take true bases from which the clarity of these true matters is derived.

‘One also must know that the existence of this Being, may His name be blessed, is a necessary existence, the absence of which is completely impossible.

‘His being independent of another: One must also know that His existence, may He be blessed, is not dependent at all on anything besides Him. Rather His existence is independently necessary.

‘And likewise he must know that His existence, may He be blessed, is a simple (undifferentiated) existence without composition or multiplicity at all. And all of the perfections are found within Him in a simple way.

‘For without this Existence, those things that we see existing and their continuation would be impossible.

‘Rather this necessary and perfect Existence must be only one. And if there exist other beings, they only exist because He made them exist with His will; so it comes out that they are all dependent on Him, and not existing from themselves. It comes out that the sum of these root principles are six. And they are: The truth of His existence, may He be blessed; His perfection; the necessity of His existence; His being independent of anything besides Him; His simplicity; and His Unity.’ (‘Derech Hashem: The way of God’; my emphases).

The Rabbi’s statements reflect those of the Catholic Church, which teaches – and has always taught – that the Beloved does not have a body.  He is spirit. Her teaching is exemplified by St Thomas Aquinas – arguably her greatest theologian:

‘Every corporeal thing, being extended, is compound and has parts.  But God is not compound: therefore He is not anything corporeal.   With this demonstrated truth divine authority also agrees.  For it is said: God is spirit (John 4:24): To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, only God (1 Tim. 1:17): The invisible things of God are understood and discerned by the things that are made (Rom. 1:29).’ (‘Summa Contra Gentiles’).

As you may know, I was a Christian for most of my life; and a Catholic (raised a Baptist) for most of my Christian years.

These are the principal Catholic dogmas that I, as a Muslim, can (and do) accept:

That there is only One God, our Creator and Lord; who can be known with certainty, by the natural light of reason from created things; who is absolutely perfect; who is actually infinite in every perfection; who is absolutely simple; who is the True God, possessing an infinite power of cognition; who is absolute Veracity; who is absolutely faithful; who is absolute ontological Goodness in Himself and in relation to others; who is absolute Moral Goodness or Holiness; who is absolute Benignity; who is absolutely immutable; who is eternal and everywhere present in created space; whose knowledge is infinite.

That the Divine Attributes are really identical among themselves and with the Divine Essence; that God is almighty; is the Lord of the heavens and of the earth; is infinitely just and infinitely merciful.

That all that exists (apart from Exalted) was, in its whole substance, produced out of nothing by Him; that He was moved by His Goodness to create the world; and this this was done for His glorification; that He has created a good world; a world that has a beginning in time; that He created all things, and holds all these things in existence.

There are, of course, folk who disagree with some; or all; or most of this.  To these folk, I can but say: Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) knows best!

Blessings.

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45 minutes ago, Brahms said:

I believe we/LDS have the greater understanding of truth.

Of course you do. But that, of itself, does not guarantee that the LDS understanding of what is true is the correct understanding. 

Why should I, a Muslim and former Catholic - indeed, why should anyone - accept that the LDS is the one true Church, simply because it claims to be? 

 

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4 hours ago, Niblo said:

As you may know, I was a Christian for most of my life; and a Catholic (raised a Baptist) for most of my Christian years.

These are the principal Catholic dogmas that I, as a Muslim, can (and do) accept:

 

35 minutes ago, Niblo said:

Of course you do. But that, of itself, does not guarantee that the LDS understanding of what is true is the correct understanding. 

Why should I, a Muslim and former Catholic - indeed, why should anyone - accept that the LDS is the one true Church, simply because it claims to be? 

 

And a Catholic Baptist as well!

 

37 minutes ago, Niblo said:

Of course you do. But that, of itself, does not guarantee that the LDS understanding of what is true is the correct understanding. 

Why should I, a Muslim and former Catholic - indeed, why should anyone - accept that the LDS is the one true Church, simply because it claims to be? 

You should not.

The claim is that GOD will show you it is true.

If not, stay whatever you call what you believe 

James 1, 5

Moroni 10, 4

Yet in the past it seems you accepted what others claimed because they made the claim. 

Inconsistent 

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13 hours ago, Niblo said:

As you know, it is a doctrine of your community that the earth: ‘Was not created from nothing; it was organized from existing matter’ (see D&C 76: 22– 4).’ (‘Doctrine and Covenants and Church History; Study Guide for Home-Study Seminary Students’; my emphasis).

 You will note that this extract references only the ‘Doctrine and Covenants’.  Not the Bible.  Not the Fathers. 

 We ought not to be surprised by this, since neither the Bible nor the Fathers lend support to this doctrine:

'You, Yahweh, are the one, only Yahweh, you have created the heavens, the heaven of heavens and all their array, the earth and all it bears, the seas and all they hold. To all of them you give life, and the array of heaven worships you.’ (Nehemiah 9:6; my emphasis).

Because that is what He has done. It is He who has rescued us from the ruling force of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son that He loves, and in Him we enjoy our freedom, the forgiveness of sin.  He is the image of the unseen God, the first-born of all creation, for in Him were created all things in heaven and on earth: everything visible and everything invisible, thrones, ruling forces, sovereignties, powers – all things were created through Him and for Him.’ (Colossians 1: 13-16).

The repetition of the expression ‘all things were created’ is meant to express a truth, with emphasis.  The  Beloved is He who brings everything from non-existence to existence; not only the created object itself, but the very substratum from which it is made.  This is what the word ‘creation’ means.  In short, the Beloved creates ‘ex nihilo’, from nothing:

I implore you, my child, look at the earth and sky and everything in them, and consider how God made them out of what did not exist, and that human beings come into being in the same way.’ (2 Maccabees 7:28-290).

You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honour and power, for you made the whole universe; by your will, when it did not exist, it was created.’ (Revelations 4:11; my emphasis).

The Fathers are in agreement (my emphases in every case):

‘Let us proceed then, O King, to the elements themselves that we may show in regard to them that they are not gods, but perishable and mutable, produced out of that which did not exist at the command of the true God, who is indestructible and immutable and invisible,” (Aristides: ‘Apology of Aristides Chapter 4’).

‘God, who dwells in the heavens and made out of nothing the things that exist.’ (Hermas: ‘Shepherd of Hermas, Book 1, Chapter 1’).

‘While men, indeed, cannot make anything out of nothing, but only out of matter already existing, yet God is in this point pre-eminently superior to men, that He Himself called into being the substance of His creation when previously it had no existence.’ (Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapter 10, Section 4).

‘The case stands thus: we can see that the whole structure of the world, and the whole creation, has been produced from matter, and the matter itself brought into existence by God.’ (Tatian: ‘Address to the Greeks, Chapter 12).

“There is one only God, and that He is none other than the Creator of the world, who produced all things out of nothing through His own Word.’ (Tertullian: The Prescription Against Heresies, Chapter 13).

And again:

“The conclusion of the whole is this: I find that there was nothing made, except out of nothing; because that which I find was made, I know did not once exist. Whatever was made out of something, has its origin in something made: for instance, out of the ground was made the grass, and the fruit, and the cattle, and the form of man himself; so from the waters were produced the animals which swim and fly. The original fabrics out of which such creatures were produced I may call their materials, but then even these were created by God,’ (Tertullian: Against Hermogenes, Chapter 33).

It is quite clear that the earliest Christians saw, in the Scriptures, confirmation that the Beloved created – from nothing at all – the very substance, essence, and material of the universe; and that He did so by the power of His word alone.

The Catholic Church teaches that not only did the Beloved create all things, but that He continually preserves their existence. 

The First Vatican Council declared:

‘The holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church believes and confesses that there is one, true, living God, Creator and Lord of heaven and earth, omnipotent, eternal, immense, incomprehensible, infinite in intellect and will, and in every perfection; who, although He is one, singular, altogether simple and unchangeable spiritual substance, must be proclaimed distinct in reality and essence from the world; most blessed in Himself and of Himself, and ineffably most high above all things which are or can be conceived outside Himself.

‘This sole true God by His goodness and "omnipotent power," not to increase His own beatitude, and not to add to, but to manifest His perfection by the blessings which He bestows on creatures, with most free volition, "immediately from the beginning of time fashioned each creature out of nothing, spiritual and corporeal, namely angelic and mundane; and then the human creation, common as it were, composed of both spirit and body" (Lateran Council IV, see n. 428; can. 2 and 5).

‘But God protects and governs by His providence all things which He created, "reaching from end to end mightily and ordering all things sweetly" (cf. Wisd. 8: 1).  For "all things are naked and open to His eyes" (Heb. 4:13), even those which by the free action of creatures are in the future.’ (Denzinger 1782-1784).

In short, if the beloved’s Providence did not preserve all things with the same power with which they were created in the beginning, they would fall back into nothingness immediately.

The Beloved’s preserving love is said to be a continuation of His creative activity.  The Church cites a number of biblical verses in support of this doctrine:

‘And how could a thing subsist, had you not willed it?  Or how be preserved, if not called forth by you?’ (Wisdom 11:25); and again:

His answer to them (the Jews) was, “My Father still goes on working, and I am at work, too.”’ (John 5:17).

‘He (Yeshua) existed before all things and in him all things hold together…’ (Col 1:17).

‘He (Yeshua) is the reflection of God’s glory and bears the impress of God’s own being, sustaining all things by his powerful command.’ (Hebrews 1:3).

The message is clear:  All things depend on the Beloved; not merely for their becoming, but also for every moment of their existence (cf. Summa Theologica: Part 1; Question 104; Article 1).

Blessings.

I don't think it is necessary to tell us what we believe

 

 

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I don't think it is necessary to tell us what we believe

 

 

 

I'm not. I'm telling you what I believe, as opposed to certain teachings of your community.   

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9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

 

And a Catholic Baptist as well!

 

You should not.

The claim is that GOD will show you it is true.

If not, stay whatever you call what you believe 

James 1, 5

Moroni 10, 4

Yet in the past it seems you accepted what others claimed because they made the claim. 

Inconsistent 

That was before I learned to follow the evidence. 

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By the way, I have simply drawn attention to what the Bible and the Fathers have to say, in contradiction to certain teachings of your Church, concerning the Beloved’s nature.  I have, of course, quoted my sources.

It is for members of your Community to demonstrate that these sources are in error.  Personal attacks – albeit lovingly administered – simply won’t do; and are not the best use of anyone’s time. 😉

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23 hours ago, Niblo said:

As you know, it is a doctrine of your community that the earth: ‘Was not created from nothing; it was organized from existing matter’ (see D&C 76: 22– 4).’ (‘Doctrine and Covenants and Church History; Study Guide for Home-Study Seminary Students’; my emphasis).

 You will note that this extract references only the ‘Doctrine and Covenants’.  Not the Bible.  Not the Fathers. 

 We ought not to be surprised by this, since neither the Bible nor the Fathers lend support to this doctrine:

We have been discussing the origin of the doctrine of creation ex-nihilo in this thread.  

To sum it up, the general consensus is that the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo was first introduced at around 177 AD by Tatian and Theophilus of Antioch, and was developed further by Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Origen.  The doctrine was later adopted in Judaism as well.  But the doctrine didn't exist in Christianity and Judaism prior to that time (nor in the Bible).  For further information on this, see Hubler, James Noel, "Creatio ex Nihilo: Matter, Creation, and the Body in Classical and Christian Philosophy Through Aquinas" (1995). Publicly Accessible Penn Dissertations. 980. https://repository.upenn.edu/edissertations/980, and several other studies (I referenced a few of them in my other post).

The writings of the early Christian Fathers supports this.  For example, Clement of Rome, in his First Epistle to the Corinthians, wrote: 

"For thou through thy operations didst make manifest the eternal fabric of the world; thou, Lord, didst create the earth."  (Clement, Epistle to the Corinthians 60:1).  

And Justin Martyr wrote that God created all things out of unformed matter:

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CHAP. X.--HOW GOD IS TO BE SERVED.

    But we have received by tradition that God does not need the material offerings which men can give, seeing, indeed, that He Himself is the provider of all things. And we have been taught, and are convinced, and do believe, that He accepts those only who imitate the excellences which reside in Him, temperance, and justice, and philanthropy, and as many virtues as are peculiar to a God who is called by no proper name. And we have been taught that He in the beginning did of His goodness, for man's sake, create all things out of unformed matter; and if men by their works show themselves worthy of this His design, they are deemed worthy, and so we have received--of reigning in company with Him, being delivered from corruption and suffering.  (Justin Martyr, First Apology of Justin, Chap. X, in ANF, Vol 1, p.165)

And Justin Martyr said that this doctrine, of God creating all things out of unformed matter, came down to them from Moses and was later borrowed by Plato and Greek Poets:

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CHAP. LIX.--PLATO'S OBLIGATION TO MOSES.

And that you may learn that it was from our teachers--we mean the account given through the prophets--that Plato borrowed his statement that God, having altered matter which was shapeless, made the world, hear the very words spoken through Moses, who, as above shown, was the first prophet, and of greater antiquity than the Greek writers; and through whom the Spirit of prophecy, signifying how and from what materials God at first formed the world, spake thus: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was invisible and unfurnished, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God moved over the waters. And God said, Let there be light; and it was so." So that both Plato and they who agree with him, and we ourselves, have learned, and you also can be convinced, that by the word of God the whole world was made out of the substance spoken of before by Moses. And that which the poets call Erebus, we know was spoken of formerly by Moses.   (Justin Martyr, First Apology of Justin, Chap. LIX, in ANF, Vol 1, p.182)

As for the scripture references you quoted, Nehemiah 9:6 doesn't say anything about creation out of nothing unless you try to read that into the verse.

As for Colossians 1:13-16, Blake T. Ostler, in his article, "Out of Nothing: A History of Creation ex Nihilo in Early Christian Thought", had this to say about the verse:

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The view that the “invisible things” are not “absolute nothing” is also supported by Colossians 1:16:

"For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth: everything visible and everything invisible, thrones, ruling forces, sovereignties, powers – all things were created through him and for him. He exists before all things". (NTJB)

In this scripture it seems fairly evident that the “everything invisible” includes things that already exist in heaven such as the angelic powers: thrones, dominions, principalities and powers. Further, the “invisible things” are also created by God, yet the fact that they are invisible only means that they are not seen by mortal eyes; not that they don’t exist. The reference to invisible things does not address whether they were made out of a preexisting matter. However, 2 Corinthians 4:18 states that these invisible things are eternal: “the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.”

Your reference to 2 Maccabees 7:28 is actually teaching the opposite of creation ex-nihilo:

"I implore you, my child, look at the earth and sky and everything in them, and consider how God made them out of what did not exist, and that human beings come into being in the same way.

This verse is saying that God made all things out of something, "out of what did not exist".  It's a relative term (from non-being into being), because the Bible teaches us that human beings were created from unformed matter:   "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."  (Genesis 2:7)  And the Maccabees verse says that God created the earth and sky and everything in them in the same way that God created humans.   This has to be the "formless matter" as described in the Wisdom of Solomon:

"For your all-powerful hand, which created the world out of formless matter, did not lack the means to send upon them a multitude of bears, or bold lions" (Wisdom of Solomon 11:17).

You quoted Revelation 4:11, but the translation you are using implies something that the text doesn't say, and it's not teaching creation ex-nihilo.

On 10/9/2022 at 8:55 AM, Niblo said:

It is quite clear that the earliest Christians saw, in the Scriptures, confirmation that the Beloved created – from nothing at all – the very substance, essence, and material of the universe; and that He did so by the power of His word alone.

Not the earliest Christians, but only those who came after Tatian and Theophilus of Antioch, and they read creation ex-nihilo back into the earlier texts from that point forward.

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18 hours ago, Niblo said:

I'm not. I'm telling you what I believe, as opposed to certain teachings of your community.   

Thank you.

You have done the same.  You have told us what we believe while telling us what you believe.  Thanks for the info.

We're even, with nothing more to discuss then.  :)

If you asked me a specific question I would be glad to do my best, but taking on all the questions on all the alleged disagreements would take a lifetime of experiences which you do not have.

I believe that you are a true seeker good for you- and the Supreme Being- whatever term you use- will judge you on that basis and for all I know, we might end up discussing what we used to believe while we are in His presence.  May that Being bless you!

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On 10/9/2022 at 7:55 AM, Niblo said:

d Church History; Study Guide for Home-Study Seminary Students’; my emphasis).

 You will note that this extract references only the ‘Doctrine and Covenants’.  Not the Bible.  Not the Fathers. 

 We ought not to be surprised by this, since neither the Bible nor the Fathers lend support to this doctrine:

Yes because we believe in other scriptures than you do.   See what I mean?   We have had spiritual experiences that inform our hearts that we are correct, and you may have had such experiences showing what YOU believe to be correct.

This doesn't mean either of us is "wrong"- just that we have different paths- and clearly you too have been on many paths, as too so have I .  I respect that deeply.

If I wanted to get to Mecca or any other location on earth and you did likewise we would all have different paths and different journeys.   You might turn right at the first step where I would turn left at the first step but we could still end up at the same place.   I hope we can figure it all out after we find each other in the afterlife.  

Unless you want to discuss a specific point, I will not say more on this thread.   All my best.

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On 10/2/2022 at 9:40 AM, Niblo said:

With respect, this is not correct.

You reference Origen’s ‘De Pricipiis, Preface 9’.  Here it is – in full:

‘We shall inquire, however, whether the thing which Greek philosophers call (ἀσώματον), or "incorporeal", is found in holy Scripture under another name. For it is also to be a subject of investigation how God himself is to be understood – whether as corporeal, and formed according to some shape, or of a different nature from bodies – a point which is not clearly indicated in our teaching. And the same inquiries have to be made regarding Christ and the Holy Spirit, as well as respecting every soul, and everything possessed of a rational nature.’

There is no declaration here that the Beloved is a ‘man with human appearance’.  Origen is merely declaring his intention to investigate the matter.

Having done so, Origen then declares:

‘Having refuted, then, as well as we could, every notion which might suggest that we were to think of God as in any degree corporeal, we go on to say that, according to strict truth, God is incomprehensible, and incapable of being measured. For whatever be the knowledge which we are able to obtain of God, either by perception or reflection, we must of necessity believe that He is by many degrees far better than what we perceive Him to be……….As, therefore, our understanding is unable of itself to behold God Himself as He is, it knows the Father of the world from the beauty of His works and the comeliness of His creatures. God, therefore, is not to be thought of as being either a body or as existing in a body, but as an uncompounded intellectual nature, admitting within Himself no addition of any kind.’ (‘De Pricipiis: Book 1; Chapter 1 – ‘On God’; Sections 5 and 6’; my emphasis).

Origen is supported by the following Fathers:

Tatian the Syrian (writing in 170 C.E.): 

‘God is a spirit, not attending upon matter, but the maker of material spirits and of the appearances which are in matter. He is invisible, being himself the Father of both sensible and invisible things” (‘Address to the Greeks; 4’).

Irenaeus (writing in 189 C.E.):

‘Far removed is the Father of all from those things which operate among men, the affections and passions. He is simple, not composed of parts, without structure, altogether like and equal to himself alone. He is all mind, all spirit, all thought, all intelligence, all reason.’ (‘Against Heresies 2:13:3’; my emphasis).

Clement of Alexandria (writing in 200 C.E.):,

‘God is divine being, eternal and without beginning, incorporeal and illimitable, and the cause of what exists.’ (Fragment from ‘On Providence’; my emphasis).

And Clement again:

‘What is God? ‘God,’ as the Lord says, ‘is a spirit.’ Now spirit is properly substance, incorporeal, and uncircumscribed.  And that is incorporeal which does not consist of a body, or whose existence is not according to breadth, length, and depth. And that is uncircumscribed which has no place, which is wholly in all, and in each entire, and the same in itself.’ (Ibid; my emphasis.)

To these, we can add the later Fathers:

 Athanasius (‘Letter on the Council of Nicaea 11’; 350 C.E.); Didymus the Blind (‘The Holy Spirit’ (362 C.E); Hilary of Poitiers (‘Commentary on the Psalms 129 (130):3’ (365 C.E); Basil the Great (‘Letters 234:1’ (367 C.E.); Ambrose of Milan (‘The Faith 1:16:106’ (379 C.E.); Evagrius of Pontus (‘Dogmatic Letter on the Trinity 8:2’ (381 C.E.); Gregory of Nyssa (‘Against Eunomius1:1:222’ (382 C.E.); John Chrysostom (‘Against the Anomoians 1:5’ (386 C.E.); St Augustine (‘The Trinity 5:5:6’ (408 C.E.); and Cyril of Alexandria (‘Dialogues on the Trinity 1’ (420 C.E.); ‘Treasury of the Holy Trinity 11’ (424 C.E.); and (Commentary on the Psalms 11(12):3 (429 C.E.).

 Continued.
 

The doctrine of the trinity are not consistent with scripture. Catholics proclaim the Father is spirit, and make El Shaddai the Father in their creeds - yet El Shaddai appears to Abraham and Moses who talk with Him, face to face.  He eats with Moses and the seventy elders. The Lord drinks milk prepared  by Abraham. Do you have an answer to this apparent inconsistency?

Further according to Isaiah 9:6 this son is to be called the everlasting Father - yet your doctrine of the trinity teaches that the Son is not the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity serves   to prevent the Son from receiving His rightful inheritance promised to Him in Isaiah....

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