Specifically what do you say when asking people if you can do proxy Temple work for thier relative?

[Jerry Atric]

On 8/3/2022 at 9:51 PM, mfbukowski said:

Many people think that allowing temple work is like some voodoo attempt to steal the spirits of their ancestors to enroll them in some satanic cult.  No kidding.

They could end up seeing the church and YOU personally in a very negative way.  There are denominations that won't even use our family history libraries because they don't want us to "steal" their dead.

Rather of having anything to do with heaven, baptism for the dead is more about bolstering our own personal witness and willingness to follow the brethren. While we are still on earth, Heavenly Father doesn't require our assistance in heaven. He does not need us to manage heaven for him. First and foremost, baptism for the dead is performed to strengthen our testimony. 

[jkwilliams]

On 8/15/2022 at 9:35 AM, BlueDreams said:

The what-if part of your question held an assumption here: 

this is an inaccurate assumption about what’s happening in our temples. To answer the hypothetical without addressing this would validate the inaccuracy. 

Your initial question didn’t say this exactly. If I’d been apart of the discussion then, I would have probably just asked you first what do you personally have concerns with your g-aunt having this rite done. And then I would have talked with those parameters in mind. Since I wasn’t and this had the same language as your earlier posts, I assumed this was the crux of the concern tied strongly to this assumption. 
 

Of course, if there is another concern that initially prompted the question of concern, I’d love to know it.  
 

with luv, 

BD

My sister and her family are Jewish. About 30 years ago, my brother-in-law's father asked me if I would do some family history research for him. I was living in Utah and therefore had access to the Family History Library and other resources not available in California. Obviously, this was before everything was available digitally. I found a lot of stuff for him and sent him copies. One day my sister called and asked me to promise not to submit any of her father-in-law's family history for temple work because it might cause some problems (she being a convert from Mormonism). I hadn't even thought of submitting the names, so I just told her I'd never do something like without asking, and I wasn't inclined to ask. Seems to me the bare minimum of respect.

[BlueDreams]

39 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

My sister and her family are Jewish. About 30 years ago, my brother-in-law's father asked me if I would do some family history research for him. I was living in Utah and therefore had access to the Family History Library and other resources not available in California. Obviously, this was before everything was available digitally. I found a lot of stuff for him and sent him copies. One day my sister called and asked me to promise not to submit any of her father-in-law's family history for temple work because it might cause some problems (she being a convert from Mormonism). I hadn't even thought of submitting the names, so I just told her I'd never do something like without asking, and I wasn't inclined to ask. Seems to me the bare minimum of respect.

I would have done the same. But this wasn’t a real-life experience, but a hypothetical concern. From what I can tell no one is currently about to do the work for orthodox Christian’s family. But I do think, either way, it’s better to have an accurate understanding of what’s being done in a religion that’s not one’s own before objecting to it.  Particularly when one’s objections could limit the practice of another’s faith, if the objection become more common in the larger public. 

 

 With luv, 

BD 

Edited August 16, 2022 by BlueDreams

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I would have done the same. But this wasn’t a real-life experience, but a hypothetical concern. From what I can tell no one is currently about to do the work for orthodox Christian’s family. But I do think, either way, it’s better to have an accurate understanding of what’s being done in a religion that’s not one’s own before objecting to it.  Particularly when one’s objections could limit the practice of another’s faith, if the objection become more common in the larger public. 

 

 With luv, 

BD 

Completely agree. Just saying it makes sense to be sensitive to people's families. 

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Completely agree. Just saying it makes sense to be sensitive to people's families. 

Of course. Which is likely why there are the current guidelines insisting on permission from non-direct relatives or friends before doing their work. 
 

It’s a rare weird soul that thinks helping someone with family history gives them a right to do the work for that family. 
 

at least I hope they’re rare, cuz that’s weird. 
 

with luv, 

BD. 

[mfbukowski]

22 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

Rather of having anything to do with heaven, baptism for the dead is more about bolstering our own personal witness and willingness to follow the brethren. While we are still on earth, Heavenly Father doesn't require our assistance in heaven. He does not need us to manage heaven for him. First and foremost, baptism for the dead is performed to strengthen our testimony. 

Good stuff, agreed. Turns our hearts to the fathers ☆

I think that is why ordinances must be done here; it's not for them, it's for us.

Edited August 17, 2022 by mfbukowski

[jkwilliams]

12 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Good stuff, agreed. Turns our hearts to the fathers ☆

I think that is why ordinances must be done here; it's not for them, it's for us.

I agree. In 1990, I went to the Los Angeles Temple and did the ordinances for my younger brother. It was a great experience, and one I still treasure.

[mfbukowski]

17 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I agree. In 1990, I went to the Los Angeles Temple and did the ordinances for my younger brother. It was a great experience, and one I still treasure.

Again, it is Alma 32, it is direct experience that is "sweet" that converts us and sustains us. Pragmatism.

It would be nice if we could get past this "thing" between us regarding postmodernism and church.

Check this out: Radical Orthodoxy 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_orthodoxy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_theology

Edited August 17, 2022 by mfbukowski

[jkwilliams]

Just now, mfbukowski said:

Again, it is Alma 32, it is direct experience that is "sweet" that converts us and sustains us. Pragmatism.

It would be nice if we could get past this "thing" between us regarding postmodernism and church.

Check this out: Radical Orthodoxy 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_orthodoxy

As far as I'm concerned, there's no thing anymore. I have said my piece. 

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

As far as I'm concerned, there's no thing anymore. I have said my piece. 

Ok well someone else then.

This is where I have been for 40+ years

[jkwilliams]

Just now, mfbukowski said:

Ok well someone else then.

This is where I have been for 40+ years

I'm just saying I'm not going to dwell on what has gone on between us, which I sincerely regret. 

[jkwilliams]

36 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Again, it is Alma 32, it is direct experience that is "sweet" that converts us and sustains us. Pragmatism.

It would be nice if we could get past this "thing" between us regarding postmodernism and church.

Check this out: Radical Orthodoxy 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_orthodoxy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_theology

FWIW, the piece on Radical Orthodoxy seems to align quite well with your views. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm just saying I'm not going to dwell on what has gone on between us, which I sincerely regret. 

Likewise 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

FWIW, the piece on Radical Orthodoxy seems to align quite well with your views. 

Yes it does.  It is what I was expressing, with a new name,  now I suppose it doesn't matter unless you want to discuss it further 

Edited August 17, 2022 by mfbukowski

[jkwilliams]

22 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes it does.  It is what I was expressing, with a new name,  now I suppose it doesn't matter unless you want to discuss it further 

I appreciate the offer, but no, thanks. Since my surgery, I’ve had to give up contact sports. 

[Tacenda]

On 8/16/2022 at 12:15 PM, Jerry Atric said:

Rather of having anything to do with heaven, baptism for the dead is more about bolstering our own personal witness and willingness to follow the brethren. While we are still on earth, Heavenly Father doesn't require our assistance in heaven. He does not need us to manage heaven for him. First and foremost, baptism for the dead is performed to strengthen our testimony. 

Interesting take. So it's just for a faith building of some sort? I think that's awful, sorry to be blunt. People spend hours upon hours in the temple away from family/friends. My in-law's have missed so much of things happening either in their children's lives and also visits or to help their 94 year old mother/mother-in-law. They are serving for a two or three? year stint at the Logan temple. So I wonder how they'd feel if they heard that it's a testimony builder and not really needed. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Interesting take. So it's just for a faith building of some sort? I think that's awful, sorry to be blunt. People spend hours upon hours in the temple away from family/friends. My in-law's have missed so much of things happening either in their children's lives and also visits or to help their 94 year old mother/mother-in-law. They are serving for a two or three? year stint at the Logan temple. So I wonder how they'd feel if they heard that it's a testimony builder and not really needed. 

I am a temple worker myself and I know that God teaches through powerful lessons and experiences during temple sessions, and what you are missing is that you cannot have school without teachers, plays without actors, and lectures without speakers.

Think of the temple presentation as a PhD program in testimony! It is where God speaks to his children in his University Lecture Hall and teaches Temple 101 several times a day, opening up his presentation on increasing each individual 's testimony if they but only listen and contemplate. They have paid their tithing as tuition, then sleep through the lessons instead of partaking in their richness.

And he needs living people to be the teachers, presenters, actors, he needs university leaders and living and dedicated, real, living people to perform the presentation.

There is no higher calling in all the world than allowing God to give his believers the highest education to be found in the universe, and are lucky to have relatives who understand how important it is.

But wait.

What if beside that, what if what you always believed is true, and this new theory is NOT?

Perhaps at least use it to understand the importance of temple workers more.

Remember is is never about "real vs symbolic", it is always both, at once!

We cannot know which is which; knowledge is sweet and works in Alma 32.

The temple works both ways.

God may not need us in heaven, but we are his hands on earth.

Edited August 17, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Chum]

In Family Search, you can make people's baptisms go *pOoF!*  When someone's work is done, add an death date <8y from DoB. Only legit data, of course.

[mfbukowski]

17 minutes ago, Chum said:

In Family Search, you can make people's baptisms go *pOoF!*  When someone's work is done, add an death date <8y from DoB. Only legit data, of course.

Make a lifetime disappear. Spiffy.

[Chum]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Make a lifetime disappear. Spiffy.

To be fair, these lifetimes never were. Making baptisms disappear is what happens when work gets done before anyone looks up their death date.

[Chum]

I just now found this 1889 naval hospital record. They're on hammock rest due to an embarrassing medical issue. I uploaded the record but didn't post the details. Some family member may get a surprise one day. I love my tree so much.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Chum

[mfbukowski]

1 minute ago, Chum said:

To be fair, these lifetimes never were. Making baptisms disappear is what happens when work gets done before anyone looks up their death date.

Your post was ambiguous.

If someone was 95 at death and someone else made it look that they died before 8, you could make their life disappear. 

I thought that is what you were saying, correct or not

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, Chum said:

To be fair, these lifetimes never were. Making baptisms disappear is what happens when work gets done before anyone looks up their death date.

No clue what this means

[Chum]

5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

No clue what this means

The Lifetimes Never Were part refers to the assumption that someone lived a life because the death date wasn't filled in.

The Making Baptisms Disappear part is what happens to their baptism when the death date gets filled in for an <8yo.

I personally recommend looking up death dates before doing work but that's me.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Chum

[Chum]

11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Your post was ambiguous.

If someone was 95 at death and someone else made it look that they died before 8, you could make their life disappear. 

I thought that is what you were saying, correct or not

You left off:

1 hour ago, Chum said:

Only legit data, of course.

That part is super, super important.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Chum