Specifically what do you say when asking people if you can do proxy Temple work for thier relative?

[Tacenda]

16 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I am a temple worker myself and I know that God teaches through powerful lessons and experiences during temple sessions, and what you are missing is that you cannot have school without teachers, plays without actors, and lectures without speakers.

Think of the temple presentation as a PhD program in testimony! It is where God speaks to his children in his University Lecture Hall and teaches Temple 101 several times a day, opening up his presentation on increasing each individual 's testimony if they but only listen and contemplate. They have paid their tithing as tuition, then sleep through the lessons instead of partaking in their richness.

And he needs living people to be the teachers, presenters, actors, he needs university leaders and living and dedicated, real, living people to perform the presentation.

There is no higher calling in all the world than allowing God to give his believers the highest education to be found in the universe, and are lucky to have relatives who understand how important it is.

But wait.

What if beside that, what if what you always believed is true, and this new theory is NOT?

Perhaps at least use it to understand the importance of temple workers more.

Remember is is never about "real vs symbolic", it is always both, at once!

We cannot know which is which; knowledge is sweet and works in Alma 32.

The temple works both ways.

God may not need us in heaven, but we are his hands on earth.

Thanks for your input, I always appreciate members on the board that respond to my thoughts, I don't deserve it.

But need to know, is it true or not that when I went to the temple and did work for the dead, was it only for my benefit and sort of a fairytale? Or were there others on the other side responding yes or no to being baptized and sealed in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Edited August 18, 2022 by Tacenda

[Jerry Atric]

19 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Interesting take. So it's just for a faith building of some sort? I think that's awful, sorry to be blunt. People spend hours upon hours in the temple away from family/friends. My in-law's have missed so much of things happening either in their children's lives and also visits or to help their 94 year old mother/mother-in-law. They are serving for a two or three? year stint at the Logan temple. So I wonder how they'd feel if they heard that it's a testimony builder and not really needed. 

Yes, baptizing the dead is primarily a faith building exercise. Our personal testimony is strengthened by everything we accomplish in the temple. Actually,Heavenly Father can assemble his sheep in heaven without our assistance. Consider it in this way. Some people may work out for hours on end in the gym to build up and shape their bodies into something they can be physically proud of. The temple serves as our soul's "gym". Regular Temple attendance helps us become stronger and wiser, and it also helps us to shape our testimony into something we can be proud of. Why are you unhappy that people visit the temple but not that they spend a lot of time working out at the gym or playing golf or spending hours at a bar away from family?

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Thanks for your input, I always appreciate members on the board that respond to my thoughts, I don't deserve it.

But need to know, is it true or not that when I went to the temple and did work for the dead, was it only for my benefit and sort of a fairytale? Or were there others on the other side responding yes or no to being baptized and sealed in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Yes of course!!

Your question kind of set me up to answer it in the way it was asked, based on the assumption that temple work was useless. I was showing real world Pragmatism on why even as just an exercise it has benefits

I was speaking, as always, about what it is possible to speak about, excluding testimony.  Rorty quote below. Philosophical technicality, sorry, it is the way my mind works.

Words cannot capture or express testimony.

But testimony tells me that yes there others I PERSONALLY HAVE BEEN LED TO who are receiving are progressing due to our work.

Personal testimony is the only way we can KNOW that!

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

Yes, baptizing the dead is primarily a faith building exercise. Our personal testimony is strengthened by everything we accomplish in the temple. Actually,Heavenly Father can assemble his sheep in heaven without our assistance. Consider it in this way. Some people may work out for hours on end in the gym to build up and shape their bodies into something they can be physically proud of. The temple serves as our soul's "gym". Regular Temple attendance helps us become stronger and wiser, and it also helps us to shape our testimony into something we can be proud of. Why are you unhappy that people visit the temple but not that they spend a lot of time working out at the gym or playing golf or spending hours at a bar away from family?

To the bold:

You apparently don't get my angst. My mother in law, has needed her daughter and her daughter is working in the temple and unable to help. She's working in the temple for the dead, not the living, and now you and maybe others are telling me it's really just for her testimony? Well, no thanks! Maybe she and her devoted husband who've served three missions, one in the London temple and another at Southern Virginia University and three years as mission presidents (I say this because I've no idea what her title is, but want to say she is a president as well in all she did) in Ireland. I think they are pretty sure of their testimonies.

This is news to me, everything this church stands for IMHO is for the baptism of the living and the dead, for them to be able to live with Heavenly Father again, I thought. Now it's really nothing to do with the dead but for the living only? Please correct if wrong. 

I can't imagine telling many members who think they're doing work for the dead or being "saviors on Mount Zion", it's only really for their testimonies? Okay well, testimony of Christ? I can get that better in other religions, you don't see anyone praising Jesus all that much in the LDS church, ever hear one member in Utah say, "Praise Jesus"? They are focused on the temple, getting converts, and members to attend the temple, and of course that's how they feel closer to Jesus also. But really this is boggling my mind. Can you even say one thing about the temple being for the dead?

https://www.learnreligions.com/why-lds-temples-important-to-mormons-2159559

8 Reasons Why Temples Are Important to Mormons

5. Vicarious Work for the Dead

One of the greatest reasons why LDS temples are important is that the necessary ordinances of baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, the endowment, and sealings are performed for the dead. Those who lived and died without receiving these saving ordinances have them done in their behalf vicariously.
Members of the Church research their family history and perform these ordinances in an LDS temple. Those for whom the work is being done still live as spirits in the spirit world and can then accept or reject the ordinances and covenants.

[mfbukowski]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

To the bold:

You apparently don't get my angst. My mother in law, has needed her daughter and her daughter is working in the temple and unable to help. She's working in the temple for the dead, not the living, and now you and maybe others are telling me it's really just for her testimony? Well, no thanks! Maybe she and her devoted husband who've served three missions, one in the London temple and another at Southern Virginia University and three years as mission presidents (I say this because I've no idea what her title is, but want to say she is a president as well in all she did) in Ireland. I think they are pretty sure of their testimonies.

This is news to me, everything this church stands for IMHO is for the baptism of the living and the dead, for them to be able to live with Heavenly Father again, I thought. Now it's really nothing to do with the dead but for the living only? Please correct if wrong. 

I can't imagine telling many members who think they're doing work for the dead or being "saviors on Mount Zion", it's only really for their testimonies? Okay well, testimony of Christ? I can get that better in other religions, you don't see anyone praising Jesus all that much in the LDS church, ever hear one member in Utah say, "Praise Jesus"? They are focused on the temple, getting converts, and members to attend the temple, and of course that's how they feel closer to Jesus also. But really this is boggling my mind. Can you even say one thing about the temple being for the dead?

https://www.learnreligions.com/why-lds-temples-important-to-mormons-2159559

8 Reasons Why Temples Are Important to Mormons

5. Vicarious Work for the Dead

One of the greatest reasons why LDS temples are important is that the necessary ordinances of baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, the endowment, and sealings are performed for the dead. Those who lived and died without receiving these saving ordinances have them done in their behalf vicariously.
Members of the Church research their family history and perform these ordinances in an LDS temple. Those for whom the work is being done still live as spirits in the spirit world and can then accept or reject the ordinances and covenants.

Well this changes everything.

It is not for us to judge others but at this point these things are more THEIR possibly poor judgments about the importance of taking care of earthly responsibilities.

This no longer is even a religious question or about temple work, it is POSSIBLY about one couple's personal decisions.

We must not judge the church or its doctrine on feeble humans who make the wrong decisions.

We are close friends to a couple called to be a temple president and matron, who also had an aging and feeble mother, and were able to juggle it all perfectly.

This has to do with personal choices, and not the church in any way.

New conversation!

[mfbukowski]

43 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 

https://www.learnreligions.com/why-lds-temples-important-to-mormons-2159559

8 Reasons Why Temples Are Important to Mormons

5. Vicarious Work for the Dead

One of the greatest reasons why LDS temples are important is that the necessary ordinances of baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, the endowment, and sealings are performed for the dead. Those who lived and died without receiving these saving ordinances have them done in their behalf vicariously.
Members of the Church research their family history and perform these ordinances in an LDS temple. Those for whom the work is being done still live as spirits in the spirit world and can then accept or reject the ordinances and covenants.

YES OF COURSE ALL THAT IS TRUE TRUE TRUE!

Of course there are also benefits for the living!

In concentrating on one side of the coin, we do not minimize the other

[Tacenda]

22 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Well this changes everything.

It is not for us to judge others but at this point these things are more THEIR possibly poor judgments about the importance of taking care of earthly responsibilities.

This no longer is even a religious question or about temple work, it is POSSIBLY about one couple's personal decisions.

We must not judge the church or its doctrine on feeble humans who make the wrong decisions.

We are close friends to a couple called to be a temple president and matron, who also had an aging and feeble mother, and were able to juggle it all perfectly.

This has to do with personal choices, and not the church in any way.

New conversation!

Okay, I'll move on, but wanted to share that this sister in law and bro in law even missed her sister's husband's funeral to work in the temple, they couldn't get a substitute. 

I just hope @Jerry Atric answers my question, or not. 

[mfbukowski]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Okay, I'll move on, but wanted to share that this sister in law and bro in law even missed her sister's husband's funeral to work in the temple, they couldn't get a substitute. 

I just hope @Jerry Atric answers my question, or not. 

Just remember there are always two sides to everything.  I agree with both, the subjective and objective, we just need to never confuse the two and the useage for each language game, and not mix them.

We need two eyes for depth perception symbolically and actually

One eye gives us no depth! 

 

[MiserereNobis]

Just came across this. As the Deadhead in residence, I had to share 😁

[Jerry Atric]

On 8/18/2022 at 3:13 PM, Tacenda said:

I just hope @Jerry Atric answers my question, or not. 

 

On 8/18/2022 at 10:29 AM, Tacenda said:

But I need to know, is it true or not that when I went to the temple and did work for the dead, was it only for my benefit and sort of a fairytale? 

Totally to your benefit. I went back and read some of your previous post, and I noticed that you seem to be debating whether or not the church was authentic. If I have misunderstood you, I apologize. Would you mind telling me where you practice religion? If you'd like, you could PM.

    The rights carried out in the temple are identical to rituals that have been practiced for thousands of years by countless religions. The rights we do at the temple are intended to provide comfort, peace, and tranquility to an often frantic way of life. Does that make sense?

[Jerry Atric]

2 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

 

Totally to your benefit. I went back and read some of your previous post, and I noticed that you seem to be debating whether or not the church was authentic. If I have misunderstood you, I apologize. Would you mind telling me where you practice religion? If you'd like, you could PM.

    The rights carried out in the temple are identical to rituals that have been practiced for thousands of years by countless religions. The rights we do at the temple are intended to provide comfort, peace, and tranquility to an often frantic way of life. Does that make sense?

Tacenda, my apologies,  I meant rituals not "rights". For some reason i can't edit my post.

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Tacenda, my apologies,  I meant rituals not "rights". For some reason i can't edit my post.

 

13 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

 

Totally to your benefit. I went back and read some of your previous post, and I noticed that you seem to be debating whether or not the church was authentic. If I have misunderstood you, I apologize. Would you mind telling me where you practice religion? If you'd like, you could PM.

    The rights carried out in the temple are identical to rituals that have been practiced for thousands of years by countless religions. The rights we do at the temple are intended to provide comfort, peace, and tranquility to an often frantic way of life. Does that make sense?

Thank you, love your avatar btw!

My current status is, born in the covenant and still member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Held a current recommend for the temple all of my married life until around 2016 but need to go check my recommend to verify. Started to question my belief in around 2006 because of finding out about JS's polygamy and then carefully entered the rabbit hole of finding things I'd never known. I was a member that loved the visiting teaching program, loved my callings, loved the Ensign but didn't enjoy scriptures. Was okay with the temple, except my first time going was sort of traumatizing in '84. I'm sure those going now will most likely be okay with it. 

I became inactive after moving to our current ward in 2018 when I told the bishop my concerns. And soon felt like he didn't want anything to do with me after that. And just don't care to be there, and for a long while watched on Zoom because of Covid. And now they no longer offer Zoom so now wondering if I should just go to any LDS ward and hopefully enjoy some Sacrament meetings, I don't enjoy other faith's worship, but haven't tried them all, and it's because I'm so programmed in a certain worship style I guess. 

My problem is I can't seem to understand your answer well, you say the temple is for me. Do you mean those that go to the temple is entirely for them and not the dead they get a slip of paper and and a new name for with usually the full name and their birth date or year they were born on the paper? My mother-in-law was an genealogy information extraction expert and she'd attend the temple weekly. I wonder what she'd think if someone told her it was not for that dead person waiting for someone to do their temple work. She might have damaged her eyesight because of it, first time that entered my mind, she has Macular Degeneration. And she'd spend hours deciphering name spellings and dates of birth off old county records etc. from all over. Even went to England with a friend to get names off records and cemetery headstones. Came home with a suitcase full.

 

[Jerry Atric]

On 8/21/2022 at 1:34 PM, Tacenda said:

. Do you mean those that go to the temple is entirely for them and not the dead they get a slip of paper and and a new name for with usually the full name and their birth date or year they were born on the paper?

Yes. Going to the temple is for your benefit, God doesn't need our help to sort out legal issues in heaven. Because that's essentially what we're saying if we believe our loved ones can't progress from spirit prison to spirit paradise unless we get baptized for them. 

How do you view religion, Tacenda? Not just the Mormon religion,  but all religions. What's religion for? The rituals performed, the hours spent studying,  what's the benefit in a person's life long term? 

 

Sorry for not answering. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Jerry Atric

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Yes. Going to the temple is for your benefit, God doesn't need our help to sort out legal issues in heaven. Because that's essentially what we're saying if we believe our loved ones can't progress from spirit prison to spirit paradise unless we get baptized for them. 

How do you view religion, Tacenda? Not just the Mormon religion,  but all religions. What's religion for? The rituals performed, the hours spent studying,  what's the benefit in a person's life long term? 

 

Sorry for not answering. 

Jerry Atric, I'm so confused. You still haven't answered my question on is the temple for the dead and the living, or work for the dead and their waiting for their work to be done? That's what I thought the temple was for, and we as members are like Saviours on Mt. Zion. 

BTW, I'm inactive and not sure what to believe. I try to hold on to belief in a God, I feel something is definitely beyond the clouds. Because of this incredible earth that was created along with all the species of every kind. 

I don't like any churches really, and if I do go back, I'd go back to the Latter-day Saints church. Very believing up until my late forties. Temple worthy and all, the only thing that would keep me from the temple is tithing and testimony issues.

[Jerry Atric]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Jerry Atric, I'm so confused. You still haven't answered my question on is the temple for the dead and the living, or work for the dead and their waiting for their work to be done? That's what I thought the temple was for, and we as members are like Saviours on Mt. Zion. 

BTW, I'm inactive and not sure what to believe. I try to hold on to belief in a God, I feel something is definitely beyond the clouds. Because of this incredible earth that was created along with all the species of every kind. 

I don't like any churches really, and if I do go back, I'd go back to the Latter-day Saints church. Very believing up until my late forties. Temple worthy and all, the only thing that would keep me from the temple is tithing and testimony issues.

The temple is for the living. The temple is for you if you desire to go there. If you don't, then try to move on if at all possible. God loves you no matter if you decide to stay in the church or if you decide to leave. Sometimes it's hard to understand God's love when you grow up in a church that can demand so much if you let it. But Mormonism can actually be really beneficial if lived correctly and when I say lived correctly I mean how you interpret correctly, not a bishop or a husband. Mormonism is a really simple religion. It's an easy going religion when you think about. But as everything else, we can over complicate it if we take it to seriously.