Family proclamation founded on irrevocable doctrine: President Oaks

[Orthodox Christian]

On 4/6/2022 at 3:10 PM, the narrator said:

Where is it taught that the purpose of celestial marriage is to produce spirit babies by sexual intercourse with a penis and vagina?

Are you serious? 'That which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit.' So how can this even be a belief.🤯

[Fether]

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Are you serious? 'That which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit.' So how can this even be a belief.🤯

There are a handful of beliefs in our faith that may suggest this is the case. But as far as I know, this has never been taught by anyone of authority.

How, exactly, spirit children are created has never been explained nor has any revelation ever been received on it 

This question right here is where I see a potential future revelation opening the path of LGBTQ becoming fully accepted in our faith. I don’t necessarily believe it will happen, but I can’t deny the thoughts I have had on it.

[Navidad]

On 5/6/2022 at 10:13 AM, mfbukowski said:

So your objection is reasonable until you understand us a little more and realize that if the Holy Ghost has not spoken to YOU directly that Joseph WAS INDEED what he claimed to be, it will all be nonsense, and you will not have the standing to criticize anything. 

I don't understand it when you make broad sweeping statements like this.

So I guess the corollary of this is since the Holy Ghost has not spoken to you that the non-LDS Christian faith is all that it claims to be, it is all nonsense and you will not have the standing to criticize anything therein. So have I read the last criticism of the orthodox or non-LDS Christian faith on this forum? 😃
 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Navidad

[Orthodox Christian]

On 5/6/2022 at 5:13 PM, mfbukowski said:

give us more scripture like the Book of Mormon- more correct than the Bible

Can you please explain how the BoM is more correct than the Bible and where? Btw, is the BoM online? Oh and I mean no offence by using the abreviations, if you do find it offensive I will write the name in full, it's laziness really.

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, Fether said:

There are a handful of beliefs in our faith that may suggest this is the case. But as far as I know, this has never been taught by anyone of authority.

I think you mean taught as official doctrine.  It's definitely been taught by people in authority, but it's considered their opinion.

Edited May 8, 2022 by JLHPROF

[Orthodox Christian]

On 5/6/2022 at 5:13 PM, mfbukowski said:

you aware that we regard Joseph Smith as the final prophet sent to the world in the last "dispensation" t

So Joseph Smith was the final prophet? Can I assume then that your subsequent prophets were not? 

[Orthodox Christian]

On 5/6/2022 at 5:13 PM, mfbukowski said:

AND the bottom line is that we see Joseph as another Moses-like figure who had the right to "restore" the gospel the way it ought to be taught today, for today's people

So the Gospel can be anything you want it to be, according to whoever your prophet might be, who can 'restore' as he sees things. Then why did Joseph Smith reinstitute archaic practices like polygamy? How was something that was thousands of years old worthy of being restored into the 19th century and into the lives and mindset  of his 19th century contemporaries?

Edited May 9, 2022 by Orthodox Christian

[Orthodox Christian]

On 5/6/2022 at 5:13 PM, mfbukowski said:

So your objection is reasonable until you understand us a little more and realize that if the Holy Ghost has not spoken to YOU directly that Joseph WAS INDEED what he claimed to be, it will all be nonsense, and you will not have the standing to criticize anything. 

I wasn't criticising I was merely making a common sense observation. And surely people have a right to critically appraise the claims of Joseph Smith, after all they are pretty incredible. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

I wasn't criticising I was merely making a common sense observation. And surely people have a right to critically appraise the claims of Joseph Smith, after all they are pretty incredible. 

Oh my!   Virgin Birth, Stigmatas, Our Lady of Fatima, paintings appearing from nowhere, Shroud of Turin, the need for intercessors instead of praying directly to God, Co-Redemptrix, bread becomes Christ, Trinity made of "substance", "original sin" making me be punished for someone else's mistake thousands of years ago--   NO, I wont continue because we all have the "right to critically appraise" but it is kind to try to understand our own "incredible" beliefs. 

ANYTHING about God - even the story that he can speak to people-- is ridiculed anyway and you I am sure are aware of that.   Your side is not immune. 

So let's be nice instead.  

 

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

So the Gospel can be anything you want it to be, according to whoever your prophet might be, who can 'restore' as he sees things. Then why did Joseph Smith reinstitute archaic practices like polygamy? How was something that was thousands of years old worthy of being restored into the 19th century and into the lives and mindset  of his 19th century contempories?

Oh my.

I can say the same things about Orthodoxy.  It seems that Orthodoxy itself declared itself to have the "truth' through their leadership.  "Believe us because we said so"- that's a common problem.

We rely on personal revelation from God to confirm every belief.   We each make our own decisions about the Lord- or at least are supposed to.

I don't think God cares much about the intellectual trends of mankind.   Except of course 2000 year old pagan non-biblical Greek philosophy that is not highly regarded by philosophers today, still being a part of Christianity today.  How is that worthy of belief in today's world?  Scholasticism is long dead, and not exactly biblical.

I will answer any question you have as long as it is earnest, but I am trying to get over being sarcastic, so please help me.   There is no need to throw one-liners back and forth.

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Orthodox Christian]

53 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh my.

I can say the same things about Orthodoxy.  It seems that Orthodoxy itself declared itself to have the "truth' through their leadership.  "Believe us because we said so"- that's a common problem.

We rely on personal revelation from God to confirm every belief.   We each make our own decisions about the Lord- or at least are supposed to.

I don't think God cares much about the intellectual trends of mankind.   Except of course 2000 year old pagan non-biblical Greek philosophy that is not highly regarded by philosophers today, still being a part of Christianity today.  How is that worthy of belief in today's world?  Scholasticism is long dead, and not exactly biblical.

I will answer any question you have as long as it is earnest, but I am trying to get over being sarcastic, so please help me.   There is no need to throw one-liners back and forth.

 

Thank you for engaging, I am trying to understand, to grasp all this. For us, the gospel is written. In these last days God has spoken through His Son, where previously he spoke through the prophets. For us the last prophet was John the Baptist, who symbolised the end of the old covenant of the Law and the beginning of the new covenant of grace. John was the link between the old and the new. For us the Gospel does not change, the message is for every generation, it has no need of restoration. So trying to understand your perspective is not easy. 

[JLHPROF]

18 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Thank you for engaging, I am trying to understand, to grasp all this. For us, the gospel is written. In these last days God has spoken through His Son, where previously he spoke through the prophets. For us the last prophet was John the Baptist, who symbolised the end of the old covenant of the Law and the beginning of the new covenant of grace. John was the link between the old and the new. For us the Gospel does not change, the message is for every generation, it has no need of restoration. So trying to understand your perspective is not easy. 

That's not even Biblical.

The New Testament is replete with statements that prophecy and prophets will continue long after Christ's death and resurrection.

The New Testament also accurately describes the future apostasy and restoration prior to the return of the Savior.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Thank you for engaging, I am trying to understand, to grasp all this. For us, the gospel is written. In these last days God has spoken through His Son, where previously he spoke through the prophets. For us the last prophet was John the Baptist, who symbolised the end of the old covenant of the Law and the beginning of the new covenant of grace. John was the link between the old and the new. For us the Gospel does not change, the message is for every generation, it has no need of restoration. So trying to understand your perspective is not easy. 

Please provide the point at which you believe the gospel was first written, how the written gospel remained unchanged, and the point when the term "every generation" begins to apply.

[Fether]

8 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I think you mean taught as official doctrine.  It's definitely been taught by people in authority, but it's considered their opinion.

Really? Can you please share references?

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Thank you for engaging, I am trying to understand, to grasp all this. For us, the gospel is written. In these last days God has spoken through His Son, where previously he spoke through the prophets. For us the last prophet was John the Baptist, who symbolised the end of the old covenant of the Law and the beginning of the new covenant of grace. John was the link between the old and the new. For us the Gospel does not change, the message is for every generation, it has no need of restoration. So trying to understand your perspective is not easy. 

Yes, having made the transition due to the philosophical issues, I can sympathize.  

Surely you have had popes "explaining " Doctrine for today. No difference 

The gospel may be "written" and might NOT change, but God can teach the WORDS/ideas through language that keeps up with what  people can understand philosophically.  He's smart that way!

"Contemporary" is not a bad word.  We don't use 11th century medicine anymore, so I don't think we need 11th century philosophy to explain religious phenomena like the Eucharist and Trinity  

 

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Orthodox Christian]

7 hours ago, CV75 said:

Please provide the point at which you believe the gospel was first written, how the written gospel remained unchanged, and the point when the term "every generation" begins to apply.

My answer here was not complicated, I don't feel it necessary to provide points. I have learned through these boards how many on here play with words, and make a simple statement complicated through the complicated use of semantics, and before you know the whole conversation is hijacked onto a tack that you are comfortable with. Those of us who are not LDS begin to look very warily upon LDS responses.

[Orthodox Christian]

On 4/6/2022 at 9:52 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

The Jews still practice the Law of Moses and are quite successful.  How can that be, if they are so wrong?

The Jews were favoured by God through Abraham. After Noah and the Flood there was a new start and God declared that He would not destroy the world again by flood. The covenant made with Abraham subsequently I believe initiated or brought in an era of God's forbearance in which He could, through His mercy and patience,choose to overlook certain behaviours that He did not institute. The Mosaic Law given later by Moses is naturally still practiced because they rejected their Saviour, so they are still under the Old Covenant having rejected the new. However, they are no longer exclusively favoured by God since through Christ that favour is extended to Gentiles, to all in fact.

[Orthodox Christian]

On 4/6/2022 at 9:52 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Why was David ordered to practice polygamy by God?  2 Sam

David was not commanded to practice polygamy. The wives of his enemy were given to him as spoils of war with other spoils. What David did with them was up to him but he wasn't commanded to marry them.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Orthodox Christian

[Orthodox Christian]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The gospel may be "written" and might NOT change, but God can teach the WORDS/ideas through language that keeps up with what  people can understand philosophically

It seems to me that all you are saying here, is that we can read the gospel and interpret it anyway we like according to our own reasoning, and the attribute the resulting interpretation to God. In this way, surely we create our own gospel which fits in with what we want to believe. I thought you said scholasticism is dead?🤔 This is rationalism surely, believing that our thoughts are above  what is actually written.

[mfbukowski]

18 hours ago, Navidad said:

I don't understand it when you make broad sweeping statements like this.

So I guess the corollary of this is since the Holy Ghost has not spoken to you that the non-LDS Christian faith is all that it claims to be, it is all nonsense and you will not have the standing to criticize anything therein. So have I read the last criticism of the orthodox or non-LDS Christian faith on this forum? 😃
 

This is not the first time we have had a discussion on "if-then" statements,  if I recall correctly.

THIS is what I wrote, with bolding

And also note that the person to whom I wrote this response had no problem understanding it:

"So your objection is reasonable until you understand us a little more and realize that IF the Holy Ghost has not spoken to YOU directly that Joseph WAS INDEED what he claimed to be, (THEN) it will all be nonsense, and you will not have the standing to criticize anything.  "

It was not s "corollary" of anything, it is a hypothetical.

It says that if you do not believe the church is true, then all the doctrine will be nonsense to you.

So let's talk about Our Lady of Fatima?

Look it up, it's a Catholic belief.

If you do not believe it, if the Holy Ghost has not testified to you that is true, you will think it's nonsense and not be able to even fathom its significance to a believer. 

And you therefore will have no standing to criticize their own understanding, because you already find it to be nonsense .

Edited May 9, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Orthodox Christian]

On 5/6/2022 at 1:59 PM, filovirus said:

How do you explain away Exodus 21:7-11? This is part of the Covenant Code that supposedly Moses received directly from God while on top of Mount Sinai.

I can't explain away anything. It seems to me that these verses show God's forbearance, patience and mercy towards a stubborn and sinful chosen people. In these verses Moses is showing how to manage polygamy, God is not commanding it but is acknowledging that it exists, even Moses was a polygamist, one of a long line. We read many times of God's forbearance, for example Romans 3: 23-26

Nehemiah 9: 30

Genesis 23-32

And there are more. This is God's perogative I suppose, but the principle that was commanded by Him was one man one woman. Reiterated by Christ and St Paul. If polygamy was part of His plan then he could have created more than one woman for Adam. But He didn't. He commanded them to replenish the earth, just the two of them. That polygamy became a societal/tribal norm, which to some extent is understandable given the need to build of the tribe for economic/security reasons taking into account infant and maternal mortality, does not mean that it was sanctioned by God. In fact according to Christ that first principal still stands. In order to present polygamy as instituted by God you have to ignore what He has shown in scripture.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Orthodox Christian

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

It seems to me that all you are saying here, is that we can read the gospel and interpret it anyway we like according to our own reasoning, and the attribute the resulting interpretation to God. In this way, surely we create our own gospel which fits in with what we want to believe. I thought you said scholasticism is dead?🤔 This is rationalism surely, believing that our thoughts are above  what is actually written.

No. There is no Scholasticism in the bible.  There is no mention of "consubstantiality" in the bible.

THAT is a philosophy of men, "interpreting anyway we like according to our own reasoning, and the attribute the resulting interpretation to God."

It's ok to believe what God teaches us in his way

It's all just words.  Don't worry about it

 

[Orthodox Christian]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

No. There is no Scholasticism in the bible.  There is no mention of "consubstantiality" in the bible.

THAT is a philosophy of men, "interpreting anyway we like according to our own reasoning, and the attribute the resulting interpretation to God."

It's ok to believe what God teaches us in his way

It's all just words.  Don't worry about it

 

But if we interpret according to our own thinking, surely that is according to our own philosophy and is a phylosophy of men, or women? Is it really just words? Can we just dismiss it like that? That, to me is like building a house on shifting sands.

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

David was not commanded to practice polygamy. The wives of his enemy were given to him as spoils of war with other spoils. What David did with them was up to him but he wasn't commanded to marry them.

David was given those wives by Nathan the prophet at the direction of God.  Not as political spoils of war.  Not commanded, blessed.

[JLHPROF]

10 hours ago, Fether said:

Really? Can you please share references?

"God created man, as we create our children; for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be." Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 11:122.

“If we are his offspring, then how did we become such, if we had no mother to give us spirit birth?” Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions 3: 143.

"Admitting the entity of the capacities, then the materials of which our spirits are composed, must have been capable of thinking, moving, willing, &c., before they were organized in the womb of the celestial female." Orson Pratt - The Seer