Abraham in Egypt

[Latter Day Data]

http://mormonpuzzlepieces.blogspot.com/2022/03/abraham-in-egypt.html

A huge thank you to the philosopher and scholar, Blake Ostler, for informing me of this remarkable evidence. He told me about this after I shared a post regarding the alleged signature of Abraham on Joseph Smith’s papyri. This is by far the best candidate for anything Joseph Smith might have pointed to (if such occurred).

An Egyptologist named Bricarello, who was working at the famous Egyptian Museum in Turin, Italy, told Blake Ostler that the name of Abraham is spelled out on the offering table, alongside the lotus (in the lion couch scene on Joseph Smith’s papyri). 

I haven’t seen Brother Bricarello’s analysis (he had joined the Church), but I took a closer look at the figure, and the spelling becomes quite clear once we take some time to compare characters (see image at bottom of post).

For many years, we have known the lotus depicted on the offering table represents Upper Egypt (Joseph Smith would have had no personal way of knowing this, of course). But now the evidence becomes exponentially more remarkable as we realize the name Abraham is literally in the symbol of Egypt, making it Abraham IN Egypt, just as Joseph Smith told us. 

The explanation “Abraham in Egypt” always seemed odd. I mean, even if Joseph Smith had been a fraud (which he wasn’t), there would be no apparent reason for coming up with that description. And yet it fits. 

As we gain more knowledge, all of the other things that don’t “make sense” to our fragile mortal minds will start to be illuminated. It will be like learning how every magic trick in the world is performed, and the only thing we will be left to wonder is how we were ever fooled. 

The first sound in Abraham is pronounced differently in Hebrew than it is in Arabic, neither of which pronounces it as an “A” like we do in English. Fittingly, the scribe here gives us a flowering reed hieroglyph (reed “leaf”) with a light “i” sound. 

Next, the scribe gives us a “b” - which is the foot hieroglyph.

This is followed in correct order, with the “r” - as the mouth hieroglyph. 

Lastly, we have a special hieratic form of “m.” Different scribes draw it differently, so I provide an example of how the scribe drew it in the text of this same papyrus. 

So we have “ab-ra-am,” Abraham. 

 

[Metis_LDS]

I have never had a problem with this papyri.  But to be clear are you saying this is proof Joseph could read the papyri?

[Robert F. Smith]

52 minutes ago, Latter Day Data said:

http://mormonpuzzlepieces.blogspot.com/2022/03/abraham-in-egypt.html

A huge thank you to the philosopher and scholar, Blake Ostler, for informing me of this remarkable evidence. He told me about this after I shared a post regarding the alleged signature of Abraham on Joseph Smith’s papyri. This is by far the best candidate for anything Joseph Smith might have pointed to (if such occurred).

An Egyptologist named Bricarello, who was working at the famous Egyptian Museum in Turin, Italy, told Blake Ostler that the name of Abraham is spelled out on the offering table, alongside the lotus (in the lion couch scene on Joseph Smith’s papyri). 

......................

Nonsense. Book of Abraham facsimile 1:10, and facsimile 3:3 are merely ordinary offering tables with items topped by a stylized lotus flower. There is no hieratic or hieroglyphic writing on those offering tables. There are many examples of this standard scene.

[Latter Day Data]

9 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Nonsense. Book of Abraham facsimile 1:10, and facsimile 3:3 are merely ordinary offering tables with items topped by a stylized lotus flower. There is no hieratic or hieroglyphic writing on those offering tables. There are many examples of this standard scene.

I didn’t say “facsimile,” I said “papyrus.” So, why are you referencing the facsimiles? 

How much of my post did you read before responding? 

CFR on your claim that what I showed is ordinary: please provide a picture (or link to a picture) of an offering table which matches the relevant features which I identified as resembling specific Egyptian characters. 

(Did you enlarge the picture I provided in the post? Do you deny that these resemble the characters in question?) 

Thanks!

[Latter Day Data]

42 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

I have never had a problem with this papyri.  But to be clear are you saying this is proof Joseph could read the papyri?

Not proof, but certainly evidence.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Latter Day Data said:

I didn’t say “facsimile,” I said “papyrus.” So, why are you referencing the facsimiles? 

How much of my post did you read before responding? 

CFR on your claim that what I showed is ordinary: please provide a picture (or link to a picture) of an offering table which matches the relevant features which I identified as resembling specific Egyptian characters. 

(Did you enlarge the picture I provided in the post? Do you deny that these resemble the characters in question?) 

Thanks!

Sorry Data.  I just assumed that you knew that both facsimiles were taken from the same papyrus roll, the Breathing Permit of Hor.  And, yes, I examined photos of the surviving papyrus fragment of facsimile 1 before responding.  None of the claims you cited could be supported.

You can find hundreds of examples of the nature of Egyptian offering stands with lotus on top (along with other offering items):

https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/images/archive/highlights/D.%20017906-E1351_004.jpg .

 .

 

https://media.britishmuseum.org/media/Repository/Documents/2014_10/1_7/ad8ea9b7_2521_467f_a1b4_a3b70079fc9f/mid_00036332_001.jpg  .

 

 .

 

https://www.nms.ac.uk/search.axd?command=getcontent&server=Detail&value=PF1032062  .

https://d1lfxha3ugu3d4.cloudfront.net/images/opencollection/objects/size4/37.1385E_PS4.jpg  .

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https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.alamy.com%2Fstock-photo%2Fegypt-offerings-table.html&psig=AOvVaw0WgwwfZLt9Wx6pmOevsfWX&ust=1648153364244000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAsQjRxqFwoTCNi4pIGI3fYCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAK .

Edited March 23, 2022 by Robert F. Smith

[the narrator]

21 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Sorry Data.  I just assumed that you knew that both facsimiles were taken from the same papyrus roll, the Breathing Permit of Hor.  And, yes, I examined photos of the surviving papyrus fragment of facsimile 1 before responding.  None of the claims you cited could be supported.

You can find hundreds of examples of the nature of Egyptian offering stands with lotus on top (along with other offering items):

 

Robert, your problem here is that you haven't selectively removed the correct elements from all of those images that cover the lotus's true meaning. Had you done so, you would have clearly seen that all of those images also have Abraham's name. For example:

[Latter Day Data]

25 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Sorry Data.  I just assumed that you knew that both facsimiles were taken from the same papyrus roll, the Breathing Permit of Hor.  And, yes, I examined photos of the surviving papyrus fragment of facsimile 1 before responding.  None of the claims you cited could be supported.

You can find hundreds of examples of the nature of Egyptian offering stands with lotus on top (along with other offering items):

https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/images/archive/highlights/D.%20017906-E1351_004.jpg .

 .

 

https://media.britishmuseum.org/media/Repository/Documents/2014_10/1_7/ad8ea9b7_2521_467f_a1b4_a3b70079fc9f/mid_00036332_001.jpg  .

 

 .

 

https://www.nms.ac.uk/search.axd?command=getcontent&server=Detail&value=PF1032062  .

https://d1lfxha3ugu3d4.cloudfront.net/images/opencollection/objects/size4/37.1385E_PS4.jpg  .

.

.

.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.alamy.com%2Fstock-photo%2Fegypt-offerings-table.html&psig=AOvVaw0WgwwfZLt9Wx6pmOevsfWX&ust=1648153364244000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAsQjRxqFwoTCNi4pIGI3fYCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAK .

I asked for “an offering table which matches the relevant features which I identified as resembling specific Egyptian characters.”

I did not say, “lotus on top, along with other offering items.” 

It does not look like you were able to find even a single case out of the countless offering tables which were anciently illustrated. 

Are you able to see the image I provided at the bottom of the OP? I’m thinking there might be a technical issue. 

I’ll provide the image again, in this post. Please let me know if you can see it and if you can enlarge it. And if so, please answer the questions I asked in my previous post. Thank you! 

 

 

[Latter Day Data]

10 minutes ago, the narrator said:

Robert, your problem here is that you haven't selectively removed the correct elements from all of those images that cover the lotus's true meaning. Had you done so, you would have clearly seen that all of those images also have Abraham's name. For example:

Are you saying I created shapes which weren’t there, like you did?

If yes, please show the shapes I created which weren’t there - CFR. 

[pogi]

Never mind, I misread it.

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by pogi

[SeekingUnderstanding]

7 minutes ago, Latter Day Data said:

Are you saying I created shapes which weren’t there, like you did?

If yes, please show the shapes I created which weren’t there - CFR. 

Perhaps you could link to the whole image that you are pulling from?

[Latter Day Data]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't see those characters in the above images he posted.  

It is amazing what meanings can read into things when we start selectively removing elements from images and messages.  

If I selectively remove the correct elements (letters) from your post, I think the true meaning comes out:

i...........have...............g............a.....................................s

Might I suggest laying off the broccoli, or Gas-X?

All jokes aside, I don't see it. 

 

Haha I don’t know how you feel about my OP, but thank you for the comedic relief. 

It looks to me like narrator attempted to mock something I did, but ended up mocking a straw man. Hopefully he’ll be able to provide more substantive feedback. 

I would be interested in your more serious thoughts, as well. 😊💯

[Latter Day Data]

3 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Perhaps you could link to the whole image that you are pulling from?

Sure! 😊 

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/fragment-of-book-of-breathing-for-horos-a-between-238-and-circa-153-bc/1#

[Steve Thompson]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Nonsense. Book of Abraham facsimile 1:10, and facsimile 3:3 are merely ordinary offering tables with items topped by a stylized lotus flower. There is no hieratic or hieroglyphic writing on those offering tables. There are many examples of this standard scene.

I concur with Robert on this one.

[Latter Day Data]

12 minutes ago, Steve Thompson said:

I concur with Robert on this one.

Would you be able to steel man my analysis, or are you just assuming that the images he provided are somehow a refutation of something I said? They aren’t. They only confirm what I said. 

[Robert F. Smith]

30 minutes ago, Latter Day Data said:

Are you saying I created shapes which weren’t there, like you did?

If yes, please show the shapes I created which weren’t there - CFR. 

Perception is everything, Ryan.  So it probably doesn't matter what I say.  You might want to consult with some LDS Egyptologists here in the intermountain area:  Michael Rhodes, Val Sederholm, John Gee, Kerry Muhlestein, and John Thompson.

[Robert F. Smith]

23 minutes ago, Latter Day Data said:

Would you be able to steel man my analysis, or are you just assuming that the images he provided are somehow a refutation of something I said? They aren’t. They only confirm what I said. 

Stephen E. Thompson (PhD Egyptology, Brown Univ, 1991).

[Latter Day Data]

21 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Perception is everything, Ryan.  So it probably doesn't matter what I say.  You might want to consult with some LDS Egyptologists here in the intermountain area:  Michael Rhodes, Val Sederholm, John Gee, Kerry Muhlestein, and John Thompson.

Robert, what exactly do you think my argument is? 

You said “nonsense,” as if you assumed what I was saying made no sense, and you have not engaged the substance of the evidence. You poisoned the well for other readers, while giving no indication that you understand what I’m even saying. 

So, what exactly do you think my argument is? 

[Robert F. Smith]

12 minutes ago, Latter Day Data said:

Robert, what exactly do you think my argument is? 

You said “nonsense,” as if you assumed what I was saying made no sense, and you have not engaged the substance of the evidence. You poisoned the well for other readers, while giving no indication that you understand what I’m even saying. 

So, what exactly do you think my argument is? 

I thought I stated pretty succinctly the weakness of your (and Blake's) claim, and one Egyptologist has agreed with me (unsolicited).  Consult the others I listed, or find some more on your own.  They will all agree with my take on your proposal.

[Ryan Dahle]

So, in the images that were provided in the OP, the middle image seems to arbitrarily remove (via photoshop or some other visual design software) certain elements of the illustration: 

I think this is partially what makes it seem like a stretch. One can make lots of dissimilar things look similar by selectively removing their constituent parts. 

That isn't to say that such an interpretation is technically impossible. But it would seem that you would need ample precedent to bring it into the realm of plausible. For instance, are hieratic characters (or other scripts) known to have been intentionally embedded in a similar manner in any other known illustrations of Egyptian symbols? If so, does one have to selectively ignore certain aspects of those images in order to clearly perceive the intended script? 

You should also know that Robert (and I believe Steve) are both intimately familiar with the Book of Abraham and its iconographic interpretations. Their expressions of doubt/skepticism shouldn't not be taken lightly. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Ryan Dahle

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Latter Day Data said:

Haha I don’t know how you feel about my OP, but thank you for the comedic relief. 

It looks to me like narrator attempted to mock something I did, but ended up mocking a straw man. Hopefully he’ll be able to provide more substantive feedback. 

I would be interested in your more serious thoughts, as well. 😊💯

I am no Egyptologist, but I will admit that there is some resemblance of those characters once you selectively remove all of the other elements in the lotus - kind of like I did in the above post.  While I don't know much about Egyptology, I do know that people are keen to see what they want to see in data.  As a public health nurse that has combated misinformation/misinterpretation of studies and data for the last 2 years, I know for a fact that even if something is spelled out right before your eyes in plain English, people will still perceive what they want in ways that sometimes even contradict what the words are actually saying.  I  think Robert is exactly right that "perception is everything". 

For that reason, I remain skeptical without further expert opinion. 

Abraham in the lotus (the symbol of Egypt) is interesting though. 

[Latter Day Data]

2 minutes ago, Ryan Dahle said:

So, in the images that were provided in the OP, the middle image seems to arbitrarily remove (via photoshop or some other visual design software) certain elements of the illustration: 

I think this is partially what makes it seem like a stretch. One can make lots of dissimilar things look similar by selectively removing their constituent parts. 

That isn't to say that such an interpretation is technically impossible. But it would seem that you would need ample precedent to bring it into the realm of plausible. For instance, are hieratic characters (or other scripts) known to have been intentionally embedded in a similar manner in any other known illustrations of Egyptian symbols? If so, does one have to selectively ignore certain aspects of those images in order to clearly perceive the intended script? 

You should also know that Robert (and I believe Steve) are both intimately familiar with the Book of Abraham and its iconographic interpretations. There expressions of doubt/skepticism shouldn't not be taken lightly. 

Hi, fellow Ryan. 

Thank you for engaging with the argument, even if only raising a peripheral point.

As I explained in the post, the name Abraham is inside the lotus. I removed apparent lotus stems. In separating it out, I didn’t alter the shapes which compose the name. I just made clear which shapes compose the name.

I get the impression that Robert doesn’t understand what I’ve said. I’m familiar with him, so I’m disappointed in his lack of substantive engagement. 

Stephen’s opinion seems to be based on cursory assumptions and shows no engagement with substance, regardless of what education he has. 

I didn’t remove very much, it was mostly just a cluster and I made clear the difference. What exactly is the problem? 

[Latter Day Data]

23 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I thought I stated pretty succinctly the weakness of your (and Blake's) claim, and one Egyptologist has agreed with me (unsolicited).  Consult the others I listed, or find some more on your own.  They will all agree with my take on your proposal.

Again, what exactly do you think my proposal is? I challenged you to provide examples of offering tables which show the same features which you implied were ordinary, and you proved my point by linking to offering tables which do not  show the specific features I am talking about. Stephen showed zero understanding of the situation by coming along and agreeing with you, oblivious to the fact that you were making my point. 
 

So, again, what exactly do you think my argument is? You can do better. You have engaged real substance in the past, and you can do it again. You don’t need to resort to calling things nonsense without understanding them. 

[Calm]

 

 

36 minutes ago, Ryan Dahle said:

You should also know that Robert (and I believe Steve) are both intimately familiar with the Book of Abraham and its iconographic interpretations. Their expressions of doubt/skepticism shouldn't not be taken lightly. 

Are there two Ryans here?  Ryan Dahle and Latter Day Data Ryan, who Robert appears to know from elsewhere?

Added:  I see that LDD Ryan confirmed…never mind.  Just trying to keep posters straight in my head and didn’t want to ‘file’ anything incorrect.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Calm

[Ryan Dahle]

8 minutes ago, Latter Day Data said:

Hi, fellow Ryan. 

Thank you for engaging with the argument, even if only raising a peripheral point.

As I explained in the post, the name Abraham is inside the lotus. I removed apparent lotus stems. In separating it out, I didn’t alter the shapes which compose the name. I just made clear which shapes compose the name.

...

I didn’t remove very much, it was mostly just a cluster and I made clear the difference. What exactly is the problem? 

Well, I think the issue is that the the image seems to clearly be a lotus but much less clearly to contain the letters of Abraham's name (since portions of the image have to be altered for the name to stand out clearly). Combine that with the presumed lack of precedent for letters embedded in otherwise non-textual symbols (you never responded to that important point), and it is understandable why people might be skeptical. 

Also, sometimes very small alterations of an image can make a very big difference in how it is viewed/interpreted. So I think it remains to be seen and debated precisely how big of a deal it is to remove the portions of the image that you removed. A good exercise might be to go through the facsimiles and see if any other small alterations could "reveal" Egyptian letters or other novel interpretations that no one would otherwise notice or think of.