Why would God create humans to be natural men and women that are His enemies?

[Teancum]

On 10/22/2021 at 10:47 AM, Amulek said:

I disagree. The restored gospel of Jesus Christ provides the most compelling case against the problem(s) of evil.

It outright solves the logical problem of evil, something classical theologians have been unable to accomplish in the past two thousand years, and it provides a framework which accommodates the other problems far better than anything I have ever seen.

How is natural evil an argument against the existence of God if you made the free choice to be exposed to it prior to ever coming here in the first place?

You see, it doesn't matter whether or not this is the best possible world (and, in fact, we've got some hints in scripture that it expressly isn't). What matters is that we are able to explain how the fallen world we live in is not incompatible with a divine, loving God. The LDS paradigm accounts for this in a way that traditional Christianity has never been able to.

 

I don't think LDS thought solves it but it does attempt and I do agree that it is better than any I have found yet.  But here is one big problem.  So we choose to come here. Did we really know what it entails. It is a big final exam really. Did we know what being mortal in a fallen world meant. And 1/3 of us thought  it was a crappy plan and they were condemned forever. 

So we are here to be tested. And if we pass wonderful.  Not so much if we fail. And guess what?  We get to forget everything we ever learned and most of us are born into horrible circumstance. This is like sitting for the bar exam, taking the CPA exam or medical exams but having forgot all we learned.  So there is that.  How is that a benevolent and loving?

 

ANd the LDS God is a risky God as well. Subject to the laws of nature?  WHat happens when the Universe suffers a heat death?  Does an LDS exalted man escape? 

LDS thought still leaves a lot of holes in the problem of evil and suffering.

[Teancum]

On 10/22/2021 at 12:21 PM, teddyaware said:

Do you find anything deficient or unreasonable in the following explanations from Adam and Eve as to why there is a need to experience the fall ?

9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.
10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the eternal life which giveth unto all the obedient. (Moses 5)

So is the fact that life would be utterly meaningless, barren, and devoid of in-depth wisdom and joy a sufficient reason to have to experience the fallen nature? Or do you think God should just somehow try find a way to to bestow all the above mentioned blessings without his children first being put through a test commensurate in challenge to the wonderful blessings received? 

Well first you have an a priori assumption that the explanation above is a true and rational explanation.  I don't find it that compelling.  In general Christian thought Adam and Eve and humans were intended to live in paradise and not a fallen world.  But because of their transgression we are born into a fallen world.  Which always made me wonder why didn't God just start with a new couple of humans rather than consign the rest of us to a fallen world.

In LDS thought a fallen world is a must. Yet that does not account for the still randomness of evil and suffering.  @smac said above wickedness is a choice.  But it is not my choice if someone chooses to inflict wickedness on me. Why should I suffer for their choice?  

[Teancum]

On 10/22/2021 at 12:56 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

@Teancum

The answer to your question, Teancum, is that it is not the creation that made natural men and women enemies to God, but, rather, the Fall : "The natural man [and woman] is an enemy to God and has been from the Fall of Adam ..."

Yet the LDS God's plan was to place us in a fallen world where we would sin and become God's enemy.

[Teancum]

On 10/22/2021 at 8:08 PM, mfbukowski said:

No so.

The entire purpose of the gospel is to raise humanity ABOVE being "natural men"

 

They are an enemy to God until the yield to the enticings of the spirit and essentially accept Christ as their savior.  How did they become such?

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

They are an enemy to God until the yield to the enticings of the spirit and essentially accept Christ as their savior.  How did they become such?

Christ was also a man, was he an enemy to God?  If not, then how did he prevent himself from becoming an enemy and what did we do to become an enemy?  He never sinned against God while we did.  It wasn't flesh, birth, or mortality that caused us to become an enemy.  It was the fact that we chose to sin while Christ never chose to sin.  All of us could have chosen to not sin and we might have thought we would have the strength before we were born.  But we also trusted that Christ would be able to pull it off and atone for us so that even when we do chose to sin and become an enemy to God, Christ would help us.

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Yet the LDS God's plan was to place us in a fallen world where we would sin and become God's enemy.

No, God's plan was to place us in a fallen world where we could learn who we really are.  It wasn't guaranteed that we would sin (Christ didn't), but the chance was extremely high so He also prepared a Savior who would be able to make it through the earth experience without sinning and thus atone for our sins.  Sinning is a potential side affect of coming to this fallen world.  It is not a guaranteed side effect.

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

In LDS thought a fallen world is a must. Yet that does not account for the still randomness of evil and suffering.  @smac said above wickedness is a choice.  But it is not my choice if someone chooses to inflict wickedness on me. Why should I suffer for their choice?

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.  Why does evil and suffering have to be accounted for?  They are part of the reality and they just happen.  Other people affect us just like we affect them.

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Yet the LDS God's plan was to place us in a fallen world where we would sin and become God's enemy.

Yet, also, God provided a Savior for us to be able to overcome our fallen nature and the sin that results.  

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

Christ was also a man, was he an enemy to God?  If not, then how did he prevent himself from becoming an enemy and what did we do to become an enemy?  He never sinned against God while we did.  It wasn't flesh, birth, or mortality that caused us to become an enemy.  It was the fact that we chose to sin while Christ never chose to sin.  All of us could have chosen to not sin and we might have thought we would have the strength before we were born.  But we also trusted that Christ would be able to pull it off and atone for us so that even when we do chose to sin and become an enemy to God, Christ would help us.

Christ never sinned thus did not become a natural man.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

No, God's plan was to place us in a fallen world where we could learn who we really are.  It wasn't guaranteed that we would sin (Christ didn't), but the chance was extremely high so He also prepared a Savior who would be able to make it through the earth experience without sinning and thus atone for our sins.  Sinning is a potential side affect of coming to this fallen world.  It is not a guaranteed side effect.

Why did we need a fallen world to learn who we really are?  Has anyone beside Jesus not sinned?

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.  Why does evil and suffering have to be accounted for?  They are part of the reality and they just happen.  Other people affect us just like we affect them.

The problem of evil and suffering and reconciling them with a loving benevolent God is a question people have been wrangling about for a long time.

[Teancum]

14 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Yet, also, God provided a Savior for us to be able to overcome our fallen nature and the sin that results.  

Why did we need to come sin and have a savior?  Why does God need to let His Son be killed to pay for my sin?  Why can't he just forgive me?

[Fether]

25 minutes ago, Teancum said:

The problem of evil and suffering and reconciling them with a loving benevolent God is a question people have been wrangling about for a long time.

They wrangle with it because traditional Christian theology says God created everything ex-nihilo. There was nothing, then God made everything, including evil.

We don’t believe this. We believe there is naturalistic law that precedes us and God. Evil is simply anything that goes against this eternally existing law. God is God only because he rejects evil and obeys all law perfectly.

The problem of evil is not a problem for the Latter-day Saint faith.

"God has all power because He is in perfect harmony with all law." - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/enrichment-g-the-nature-and-purpose-of-law?lang=eng

 

“And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.” - Doctrine and Covenants 88:34

 

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/david-l-paulsen/joseph-smith-problem-evil/

 

Doctrine and Covenants 82:10, Doctrine and Covenants 130:20-21, and  Alma 42:19-25 adds to the conversation too

Edited October 24, 2021 by Fether

[webbles]

22 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Christ never sinned thus did not become a natural man.

21 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Why did we need a fallen world to learn who we really are?  Has anyone beside Jesus not sinned?

So becoming a natural man is not a guaranteed condition of the fallen world.  Anyone could pull it off, but in reality, only Christ could.  When we agreed with the plan, we knew that there was an extremely high likelihood that we would sin and thus become a "natural man" but it wasn't guaranteed.  Each of us could have done as Christ did.  So becoming a "natural man" was our own choice.  It separated us from God.  But, as part of the plan, we would have a Savior who would help us overcome the "natural man" if we did choose to become one.

As for why we had to leave God's presence to learn who we are, I'd point to the 1/3 part of the host that were damned because they chose to follow Lucifer.  I'd much rather have a place to learn who I am without the guarantee of being damned.

27 minutes ago, Teancum said:

The problem of evil and suffering and reconciling them with a loving benevolent God is a question people have been wrangling about for a long time.

But that is assuming that God is the prime mover, the one who started and created everything (including evil).  That's not the doctrine of the church.  Everyone has existed just as long as God.  He didn't create any of us.  We all have the capacity to do good and evil, completely independent of God.  He can't prevent us from doing evil.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Teancum said:

Or we can use critical thinking and rational thought.

...If and only if we have extensively studied what that only means.

Otherwise we get word mush.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Why did we need to come sin and have a savior?  Why does God need to let His Son be killed to pay for my sin?  Why can't he just forgive me?

We had developed as far as we could, had learned as much as we could, and had grown as much as we could, as spirits in premortality.  It was necessary for us to come to earth to be able to have experiences, learning, and growth as mortals that we could not have had if we had remained in our premortal, unembodied, spirit state. 

It is part of divine law that someone has to pay a price for sin: Either I would need to pay for my own sins, or someone else would need to pay for them on my behalf.  (See Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-19). In any event, even if, somehow, I, myself, committed no sin for which Christ needed to (or for which He could) atone, because of the Fall of Adam and Eve, without His Sacrifice, our spirits automatically would have become subject to Satan.  (See 2 Nephi 9, circa vv. 4-14).

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

They wrangle with it because traditional Christian theology says God created everything ex-nihilo. There was nothing, then God made everything, including evil.

We don’t believe this. We believe there is naturalistic law that precedes us and God. Evil is simply anything that goes against this eternally existing law. God is God only because he rejects evil and obeys all law perfectly.

The problem of evil is not a problem for the Latter-day Saint faith.

"God has all power because He is in perfect harmony with all law." - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/enrichment-g-the-nature-and-purpose-of-law?lang=eng

 

“And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.” - Doctrine and Covenants 88:34

 

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/david-l-paulsen/joseph-smith-problem-evil/

 

Doctrine and Covenants 82:10, Doctrine and Covenants 130:20-21, and  Alma 42:19-25 adds to the conversation too

Is the LDS God omnipotent?  Is God omniscient?  What can the LDS God control and what can he not? I think that is crucial is your determination?  Cn the LDS God prevent a three year old from suffering from cancer?  Can the LDS God prevent the kidnapping of a young child and the murder of such a child?  If yes then the LDS God can prevent suffering and evil.  Could God prevent a toddler who accidently walks out in the street from being hit by a car?  If yes then God can prevent suffering.  If you were on the street corner and saw the child wandering into the path of an on coming car would you save the child?  

[Teancum]

Just now, Kenngo1969 said:

We had developed as far as we could, had learned as much as we could, and had grown as much as we could, as spirits in premortality.  It was necessary for us to come to earth to be able to have experiences, learning, and growth as mortals that we could not have had if we had remained in our premortal, unembodied, spirit state. 

It is part of divine law that someone has to pay a price for sin: Either I would need to pay for my own sins, or someone else would need to pay for them on my behalf.  (See Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-19). In any event, even if, somehow, I, myself, committed no sin for which Christ needed to (or for which He could) atone, because of the Fall of Adam and Eve, without His Sacrifice, our spirits automatically would have become subject to Satan.  (See 2 Nephi 9, circa vv. 4-14).

But you say this because you have been taught to believe it and think it is true.  But does it make sense? Is it rational? Why would an all powerful God have to shed blood to pay for sin?  This idea seems more of a human construct of law an punishment than divine.  

[Teancum]

46 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

...If and only if we have extensively studied what that only means.

Otherwise we get word mush.

Possibly. I may offer such word mush. You may as well.

[Teancum]

On 10/22/2021 at 1:36 PM, Fether said:

Your right. But the main point is that God did not create us. He organized us and then raised us (how this fits in with him being our literal father, I do not know)

It seems to me that LDS though on this is limited.  The references in scripture are vague.  When the BoA talks about intelligences it sounds more like a spirit personage. I vaguely recall that somme LDS leaders taught intelligence was not an individual thing.  More like a soup of stuff god could pull out of to put into a spirit being.

On 10/22/2021 at 1:36 PM, Fether said:

our nature is our own. We are not some software God wrote to fulfill some purpose, we have always existed and God put us here so we can learn to be like him.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2014/07/youth/to-the-point/why-did-god-create-us

This passage does indicate we have always existed but it is not specific as to whether we existed as individuals or not.

“Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be” (D&C 93:29

On 10/22/2021 at 1:36 PM, Fether said:

“God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself” - Joseph Smith

This seems to refer to spirits that God created does it not?

On 10/22/2021 at 1:36 PM, Fether said:

“You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing, and they will answer, “Doesn’t the Bible say he created the world?” And they infer, from the word create, that it must have been made out of nothing. Now, the word create came from the word baurau, which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos—chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time He had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning and can have no end.” - Joseph Smith

 

THis does not seem to refer to personages or intelligences but rather matter that GOd made the world from.

[webbles]

13 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Is the LDS God omnipotent?  Is God omniscient?  What can the LDS God control and what can he not? I think that is crucial is your determination?  Cn the LDS God prevent a three year old from suffering from cancer?  Can the LDS God prevent the kidnapping of a young child and the murder of such a child?  If yes then the LDS God can prevent suffering and evil.  Could God prevent a toddler who accidently walks out in the street from being hit by a car?  If yes then God can prevent suffering.  If you were on the street corner and saw the child wandering into the path of an on coming car would you save the child?  

No, he isn't omnipotent.  He is bound by natural laws.  He can't do anything and everything.

Also, you are just describing moral dilemmas.

Edited October 24, 2021 by webbles

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Is the LDS God omnipotent?  Is God omniscient?  What can the LDS God control and what can he not? I think that is crucial is your determination?  Cn the LDS God prevent a three year old from suffering from cancer?  Can the LDS God prevent the kidnapping of a young child and the murder of such a child?  If yes then the LDS God can prevent suffering and evil.  Could God prevent a toddler who accidently walks out in the street from being hit by a car?  If yes then God can prevent suffering.  If you were on the street corner and saw the child wandering into the path of an on coming car would you save the child?  

Sort of, yes, not sure except for generalities, would be crucial, all the rest are yes except the last one. I’d like to think I would save the child but if there was risk to myself it is possible I would freeze up or I might have a hard time processing the situation fast enough to act or any number of things. Hopefully I would.

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, webbles said:

No, he isn't omnipotent.  He is bound by natural laws.  He can't do anything and everything.

Hard to reconcile that with scripture.

[webbles]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

It seems to me that LDS though on this is limited.  The references in scripture are vague.  When the BoA talks about intelligences it sounds more like a spirit personage. I vaguely recall that somme LDS leaders taught intelligence was not an individual thing.  More like a soup of stuff god could pull out of to put into a spirit being.

I don't think it is very vague.  The doctrine is that we are the same species as God.  We aren't any different from Him except for in our location on the path of progression.  So we come from the same substance that He is.  What ever He was initially, we were initially.  If we came from some "soup of stuff", then so would have God, and that doesn't make much sense.

[webbles]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Hard to reconcile that with scripture.

Not really.  The scriptures has places that say He can not lie, He can not go back on His promises.  Others say He is bound by natural laws.  Compared to us, He is omnipotent, but He isn't actually omnipotent in the pure sense of that word.