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Why would God create humans to be natural men and women that are His enemies?


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Mosiah 3:19:

19 For the anatural bman is an cenemy to God, and has been from the dfall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he eyields to the enticings of the fHoly Spirit, and gputteth off the hnatural man and becometh a isaint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a jchild, ksubmissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

 

 

Why would God create creatures that are his enemy? In Christian thought there are varying ideas on the purpose of creation amongst Christian sects and Mormonism certainly has a unique view.  And then there are the philosophies of the Omni's and some LDS thinkers have some interesting ideas on this though LDS scripture seem to tilt towards the more general understanding.  I think the  omnis play into this. More on this later.

But one thought.  In LDS thought humans were supposed to fall from grace.  Adam and Eve had to fall. Sin had to be introduced into the world.  We would all sin so we were destined to become God's enemy. It was planned. This to me some like an insidious plan to create us to have to start as God's enemy.  So let's talk about it.

 

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58 minutes ago, Teancum said:

But one thought.  In LDS thought humans were supposed to fall from grace.  Adam and Eve had to fall. Sin had to be introduced into the world.  We would all sin so we were destined to become God's enemy. It was planned. This to me some like an insidious plan to create us to have to start as God's enemy.  So let's talk about it.

I agree with Hamba Tuhan.  In addition, another way to look at it is that this experience is a sandbox.  It is a place for us to learn without being damned automatically.  Christ is the only one who could come into this world and successfully follow the will of the Father.  He had that much internal strength/will.  The rest of us need to learn what we can do.  By placing us in this sandbox, we can make mistakes and still return back to him through the Atonement.

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2 hours ago, Teancum said:

But one thought.  In LDS thought humans were supposed to fall from grace.  Adam and Eve had to fall. Sin had to be introduced into the world.  We would all sin so we were destined to become God's enemy. It was planned. This to me some like an insidious plan to create us to have to start as God's enemy.  So let's talk about it.

I always thought of it this way.

God runs a crane operating business. He hires a bunch of people that want to be crane operators and work for him. When they first get in the crane, they are messing things up and breaking huge projects. They are naturally causing his business harm because they lack the know-how to run a crane. Some don’t work at it and continue to damage the projects they are out on. Others grow and learn and become great crane operators and cease to harm the projects, but actually help in them.

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2 hours ago, Teancum said:

It was planned. This to me some like an insidious plan to create us to have to start as God's enemy.  So let's talk about it.

Another thing to consider is that our understanding of creation is different than others. We were not created from nothing, God did not design us from the ground up. We were organized from existing matter and then we were taught in pre-earth life. I’m that time we all developed personalities.

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Thank you Teancum for starting this thread.

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

Why would God create creatures that are his enemy? 

I do not think God ever has or ever will think of His children as His enemies. Imo THAT part of that verse is not the highest level of truth on the subject.

I DO however think which inner voice we listen to matters, and perhaps that was King Benjamin's main point in that passage.

 

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

In LDS thought humans were supposed to fall from grace.  Adam and Eve had to fall. Sin had to be introduced into the world.  We would all sin so we were destined to become God's enemy. It was planned. This to me some like an insidious plan to create us to have to start as God's enemy. 

Imo the LDS line of thinking about Adam and Eve is an improvement over the traditional Christian idea of "original sin", but I don't think the Adam & Eve story is literal, nor a complete explanation of why we are separated from God, or at least sure seem to be.  I am comfortable with the idea that earth is a school of sorts. 

It seems to me that if we are naturally God's enemy, then we cannot have been created in His image.   Or if He deliberately set us up to become His enemy, then He doesn't have our best interest at heart.  Or if we have power to become His enemy on our own, then our will is more powerful than His.  Each of these conclusions seems unreasonable to me, so I think each premise is incorrect.

On the other hand if we are mistaken about ourselves and about Him and about our relationship (which would not be surprising in a Telestial world), then maybe neither of us is the bad guy. 

* * *

What's an “Omni”?

Edited by Olmec Donald
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4 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

Or if we have power to become His enemy on our own, then our will is more powerful than His.

It's not about power. Agency is a gift from God, something that He granted us wilfully.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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10 hours ago, katherine the great said:

The natural man/woman is only part of our nature. The other part is spiritual. In a sense it’s kind of brilliant to create us in such a way. 

Brilliant to create us as God's enemy and to punish us because of the nature GOd put in us?  Can you expand?

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13 hours ago, Teancum said:

Mosiah 3:19:

19 For the anatural bman is an cenemy to God, and has been from the dfall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he eyields to the enticings of the fHoly Spirit, and gputteth off the hnatural man and becometh a isaint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a jchild, ksubmissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Why would God create creatures that are his enemy? In Christian thought there are varying ideas on the purpose of creation amongst Christian sects and Mormonism certainly has a unique view.  And then there are the philosophies of the Omni's and some LDS thinkers have some interesting ideas on this though LDS scripture seem to tilt towards the more general understanding.  I think the  omnis play into this. More on this later.

But one thought.  In LDS thought humans were supposed to fall from grace.  Adam and Eve had to fall. Sin had to be introduced into the world.  We would all sin so we were destined to become God's enemy. It was planned. This to me some like an insidious plan to create us to have to start as God's enemy.  So let's talk about it.

 

My take is that "natural man" is King Benjamin's term, and something we create, and is not the same as the Pearl of Great Price reference to God creating / organizing things spiritually before they were naturally upon the earth in Eden, and before the Fall (see Moses 3: 5, 9). After the Fall, “natural” took on a more telestial glow with the attendant problems outlined in Mosiah 3:19 [EDIT]: rather, Mosiah 16:3-13 (and Alma 42:10, 26, 30 -- but read the whole chapter! -- also).

I believe agency and love are the greatest gifts we can have. Together, they are “joy.” I say “gifts” because while we may have some innate agency and charity as intelligences/spirits from as far back as anyone can conceptualize, God introduced the ways and means for expanding agency and love, respectively, by providing greater opportunities than those we could find in our then-present estate and His Son and all He does. Thus, we can choose to become saints through the atonement of Christ. (See Abraham Chapter 3, notably verses 2, 12 and 17 onward).

This seems pretty straightforward (and brilliant!) to me.

Edited by CV75
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5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Agency is a gift from God, something that He granted us wilfully.

I can go along with that.

Agency is freedom of choice, and choices can be correct or incorrect.   But do our incorrect choices make us an enemy of God?  I think they make us mistaken, which is not the same thing.  A person chooses wrongly due to being mistaken on some level about what would make them truly happy.  Imo correction rather than punishment is what's called for.  Sometimes we are deaf to correction and it takes the threat of punishment to get our attention (D&C 19:6-12). 

Edited by Olmec Donald
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3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Brilliant to create us as God's enemy and to punish us because of the nature GOd put in us?  Can you expand?

I think you know. By endowing us with bodies that are prone to non-godlike behavior, we have an opportunity to expand our spiritual selves. There’s some poetic language used there-not everything about being human is bad. In fact God proclaimed the creation good. It’s the “carnal” behavior, that can alienate us from God. But at the same time, it gives us an opportunity to grow. I really don’t think this is referring to the person as much as it is to behavior. We are all carnal and we are all spiritual but maybe the ultimate goal is to allow our spirits to control our bodies the majority of the time-not vice versa. 
 

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All

some interesting and thoughtful responses. I am very tied up today but have some thoughts to share. If do not respond right away its because I am busy and my response to the many comments above will take me a bit of time to put together. Thanks

Edited by Teancum
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1 hour ago, Duncan said:

One thing to consider is the scripture says the natural man is an enemy to God, it doesn't say that God is an enemy to the natural man

So God may not be an enemy of the natural man, even though God and the natural man have opposite goals and share nothing at all in common?

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Perhaps your idea may be more correctly stated by saying God isn’t against the idea of his children having to temporarily take upon themselves a fallen nature that they might learn, through their own most intimate experience, how to overcome evil with the redeeming goodness of God. In this view, the only way the fallen nature can be viewed in any way as a positive is if its destructive, anti-God influence is successfully overcome through faith in Jesus Christ.

Edited by teddyaware
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4 hours ago, Teancum said:

Brilliant to create us as God's enemy and to punish us because of the nature GOd put in us?  Can you expand?

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the natural man is.  God did not create the natural man.  It is a choice we make.  The "natural man" is not what you are thinking - a human created by natural means.  In fact, essential to our nature is a spark of divinity - the light of eternity - the good.  Children are celestial beings.  We can live in and yield to the spiritual environment. 

Quote

 

“Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great mediation of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

“And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

 

We can choose to act and live in/partake of the spiritual environment via the light that fills the immensity of space and is endowed upon every person and literally expands our capacity beyond the limitations of our physical bodies to connect with divinity and the mind of God.  Without that, we would truly be slaves to the natural world, without agency.  It is the window to the spiritual realm that frees us from the bondage of the fallen world where people can truly become slaves in captivity. 

Edited by pogi
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32 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

So God may not be an enemy of the natural man, even though God and the natural man have opposite goals and share nothing at all in common?

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Perhaps your idea may be more correctly stated by saying God isn’t against the idea of his children having to temporarily take upon themselves a fallen nature that they might learn, through their own most intimate experience, how to overcome evil with the redeeming goodness of God. In this view, the only way the fallen nature can be viewed in any way as a positive is if its destructive, anti-God influence is successfully overcome through faith in Jesus Christ.

true, but nothing which God is an enemy of-which is proves my point

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16 hours ago, Teancum said:

Mosiah 3:19:

19 For the anatural bman is an cenemy to God, and has been from the dfall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he eyields to the enticings of the fHoly Spirit, and gputteth off the hnatural man and becometh a isaint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a jchild, ksubmissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Why would God create creatures that are his enemy?

I was writing a response when I scrolled up and saw Hamba's.  So "ditto" to that.

16 hours ago, Teancum said:

In Christian thought there are varying ideas on the purpose of creation amongst Christian sects and Mormonism certainly has a unique view. 

I agree.

16 hours ago, Teancum said:

And then there are the philosophies of the Omni's and some LDS thinkers have some interesting ideas on this though LDS scripture seem to tilt towards the more general understanding. I think the  omnis play into this. More on this later.

I don't think we'll ever have a perfect understanding of the Plan of Salvation.  

16 hours ago, Teancum said:

But one thought.  In LDS thought humans were supposed to fall from grace. 

By choice, yes, we left the presence of God to sojourn for a while in this telestial state.

16 hours ago, Teancum said:

Adam and Eve had to fall.

They chose to fall.

16 hours ago, Teancum said:

Sin had to be introduced into the world. 

That seems to be part of the plan, yes.  Opposition in all things.

16 hours ago, Teancum said:

We would all sin so we were destined to become God's enemy. It was planned.

It was anticipated.  Hence need for a savior and the atonement.  The Book of Mormon has some very good meditations on this concept, such as 2 Nephi 2 and Mosiah chapters 3-4.

16 hours ago, Teancum said:

This to me some like an insidious plan to create us to have to start as God's enemy. 

"Start as God's enemy?"  What do you mean by that?

Also, do you think the entire Plan of Salvation is "insidious?"

Also, what are your thoughts about D&C 76 and the eschatology of the children of God?  The salvific destiny of virtually all of us is, will be, beyond our ability to comprehend.  Consider the description of the Telestial Kingdom as found in D&C 76:89-90: "And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding; And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it."

We can and do know the "glory" of this fallen "telestial" world because we live in it.  In contrast, the Telestial Kingdom has a glory to it "which surpasses all understanding."  So we cannot conflate these two things.

If the Plan was to have us all, regardless of what we do and regardless of our choices and desires, live for eternity in hellish damnation, then I could see "insidious" as an apt descriptor.  But that's nothing like the eschatology espoused by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 

We are, instead, taught that even the most wicked and evil that humanity has ever seen (excepting Sons of Perdition) will inherit the Telestial Kingdom, the glory of which "surpasses all understanding" (D&C 76:89).

We are told that the travails and adversities of this life are "but a small moment," and that if we "endure it well, God shall exalt {us} on high."  (D&C 7-8.) 

We are told that "eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."  (1 Cor. 2:9.) 

We are taught that "the Spirit Himself giveth testimony to our spirit, that we are the sons of God. And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him." (Rom. 8:16-17.)

We are taught that "if we be dead with {Christ}, we shall live also with him. If we suffer, we shall also reign with him." (2 Tim. 2:11-12.)

We are taught that "the God of all grace, who hath called us into his eternal glory in Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a little, will himself perfect you, and confirm you, and establish you." (1 Pet. 5:10.)

And so on.  So I don't quite understand your characterization of the Plan of Salvation as "insidious."  

16 hours ago, Teancum said:

So let's talk about it.

Yes, let's.

Thanks,

-Smac

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40 minutes ago, Teancum said:
Quote

What do you mean by "the nature God put in us?"

God sent us to a fallen world

Yes, I agree with that part.

40 minutes ago, Teancum said:

where by our nature we would sin and become God's enemy.

I don't understand this part (the "by our nature" bit).  Could you elaborate?

You seem to be imputing some form of Calvinism onto us.  This June 1992 Ensign article by Robert Millet touches on this issue:

Quote

King Benjamin’s teachings on the Fall and the Atonement were part of the profound discourse he delivered at the temple to his people, whom he described as a “diligent people in keeping the commandments of the Lord.” (Mosiah 1:11.) This timely treatise was not for slothful servants, but a dispensing of the “mysteries of God” (Mosiah 2:9) to the Saints, to enable them to receive “a name that never shall be blotted out, except it be through transgression.” (Mosiah 1:12.)

This prophet-king sets forth the particulars of that which had been revealed by the angel—that “the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam.” (Mosiah 3:19.) What is it that King Benjamin is saying about mankind? What is the natural man, and how may he or she be characterized? To answer these questions, we must first understand the ramifications of Adam’s fall.

Yep.  Let's go back to the beginning.

Quote

The plan of salvation is designed, according to President Brigham Young, for “the redemption of fallen beings.” This is a hard doctrine, and too often we attempt to soften it. That there is a plan of deliverance indicates there must be something from which we need redemption. The Fall is a companion doctrine to the Atonement, and there are no serious treatments of the Atonement in the Book of Mormon that are not somehow connected with the Fall.

We know that when Adam and Eve transgressed, they were cast from the Garden of Eden. At that point, their contact with God changed dramatically. They were cut off from His presence, so much so that the estrangement has been referred to as death. Elder Bruce R. McConkie summarized the effects of the Fall:

“Adam broke the law of God, became mortal, and was thus subject to sin and disease and all the ills of mortality. We know that the effects of his fall passed upon all his posterity; all inherited a fallen state, a state of mortality, a state in which temporal and spiritual death prevail. In this state all men sin. All are lost.”

"All inherited a fallen states . . . a state in which temporal and spiritual death prevail."

I think that is distinguishable from saying that we are, by our nature, "enemies" to God.

Quote

Fortunately, the Savior’s redemption was foreordained to atone for these estrangements, first of all Adam’s. As the Lord consoled Adam: “I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden.” (Moses 6:53.) This declaration must, however, be understood in context. Because “the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children” (Moses 6:54), we must not conclude that we are unaffected by the Fall. Jehovah explained to Adam: “Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.” (Moses 6:55.)

"Sin conceiveth" in our "hearts" because we are in a fallen state.  I think that is distinguishable from saying we are, by our nature, "enemies" to God.  Millett hits on this point directly:

Quote

No, we do not believe, with Calvin, in the moral depravity of men and women. No, we do not believe, with Luther, that man does not even have the power to choose good over evil. And we do not believe that children inherit the so-called sin of Adam through either sexual union or by birth. Rather, children are born into a world of sin; conception is simply the vehicle by which the effects of the Fall (not original guilt) are transmitted to Adam’s posterity. Lehi taught Jacob that in the beginning God “gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.” (2 Ne. 2:21.)

As people sin, they die spiritually—”They die as pertaining to the things of the Spirit; they die as pertaining to the things of righteousness; they are cast out of the presence of God. It is of such men that the scriptures speak when they say that the natural man is an enemy to God,” said Elder McConkie.

I think Millett's entire article is worth a read.

Here's another point worth considering that may be  rejoinder to the notion that we are "naturally" depraved or wicked or some such.  Consider Moroni 8:

Quote

9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.

10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

See also D&C 137:10:

Quote

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

If we were, by our "nature," evil / wicked / depraved / "enemies to God," then why do little children not need baptism?

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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