Scott Lloyd Posted March 15, 2022 Posted March 15, 2022 On 2/8/2022 at 11:59 AM, smac97 said: Sounds good. A public allegation of fraud is a serious thing. I think Huntsman would have taken serious exception if someone filed a big, splashy, well-publicized lawsuit containing all sorts of horrible invective against him and his character, all of which centered on what is ultimately a pedantic issue. He got his 15 minutes. He got his chance to vent his spleen, to disparage the Church, to foment ill will against it, to damage its reputation. In a sense, it's "Mission Accomplished" for him. I don't think it was ever about the money, not really. It was about injuring the Church. Thanks, -Smac He’s not finished yet, apparently.
SwedishLDS Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 Well when it comes to money it is always difficult. Its a limited resource, and while there are genuine needs, there are also those that do not value tithing and fast offering money as if it were their own. You are supposed to Use all your savings, if not ask for help from family and friends, and then as a last resort the church.
Tacenda Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 2 hours ago, SwedishLDS said: Well when it comes to money it is always difficult. Its a limited resource, and while there are genuine needs, there are also those that do not value tithing and fast offering money as if it were their own. You are supposed to Use all your savings, if not ask for help from family and friends, and then as a last resort the church. Well, then the church needs to use all their resources before asking for 10 percent of income vs. increase like the original tithing was in the D&C. The church created the thought that you could pay tithing first before bills and then go to the church if needed. That's bad advice and goes against the original command in the D&C 119. Do you see the word income? 1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their asurplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion, 2 For the building of mine ahouse, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church. 3 And this shall be the beginning of the atithing of my people. 4 And after that, those who have thus been atithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord. 5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of aZion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you. 6 And I say unto you, if my people observe not this law, to keep it holy, and by this law sanctify the land of Zion unto me, that my statutes and my judgments may be kept thereon, that it may be most holy, behold, verily I say unto you, it shall not be a land of aZion unto you. 7 And this shall be an ensample unto all the astakes of Zion. Even so. Amen.
bluebell Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: Well, then the church needs to use all their resources before asking for 10 percent of income vs. increase like the original tithing was in the D&C. The church created the thought that you could pay tithing first before bills and then go to the church if needed. That's bad advice and goes against the original command in the D&C 119. Do you see the word income? 1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their asurplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion, 2 For the building of mine ahouse, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church. 3 And this shall be the beginning of the atithing of my people. 4 And after that, those who have thus been atithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord. 5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of aZion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you. 6 And I say unto you, if my people observe not this law, to keep it holy, and by this law sanctify the land of Zion unto me, that my statutes and my judgments may be kept thereon, that it may be most holy, behold, verily I say unto you, it shall not be a land of aZion unto you. 7 And this shall be an ensample unto all the astakes of Zion. Even so. Amen. If God blesses you for having faith to pay tithing when money is scarce, then it's very good advice. Are you saying that you don't believe God blesses such individuals and that's why it's bad advice? 1
JAHS Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: Well, then the church needs to use all their resources before asking for 10 percent of income vs. increase like the original tithing was in the D&C. The church created the thought that you could pay tithing first before bills and then go to the church if needed. That's bad advice and goes against the original command in the D&C 119. Do you see the word income? 1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their asurplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion, 2 For the building of mine ahouse, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church. 3 And this shall be the beginning of the atithing of my people. 4 And after that, those who have thus been atithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord. 5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of aZion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you. 6 And I say unto you, if my people observe not this law, to keep it holy, and by this law sanctify the land of Zion unto me, that my statutes and my judgments may be kept thereon, that it may be most holy, behold, verily I say unto you, it shall not be a land of aZion unto you. 7 And this shall be an ensample unto all the astakes of Zion. Even so. Amen. Well that makes sense if you don't believe in continuing revelation by current latter-day prophets. "And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation." (D&C 68: 4) Edited March 16, 2022 by JAHS 1
Tacenda Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 2 hours ago, bluebell said: If God blesses you for having faith to pay tithing when money is scarce, then it's very good advice. Are you saying that you don't believe God blesses such individuals and that's why it's bad advice? Should have been clearer.. Church shouldn't tell members to pay tithing before bills and lead them to believe they can go to the church for help. Church should go by "increase" and that would be after bills are paid.
bluebell Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 8 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Should have been clearer.. Church shouldn't tell members to pay tithing before bills and lead them to believe they can go to the church for help. Church should go by "increase" and that would be after bills are paid. Can they not go to the church for help? I guess I'm still not sure what you are saying. Plus, I disagree that it's obvious that "increase" is after bills are paid. In a business situation--net vs. gross--then yes, it makes sense to pay tithing after the bills are paid because those bills are what allowed you to make the money, they are the cost of business. But in a paycheck situation, that doesn't make sense to me. My netflix account didn't allow me to earn my paycheck (it most definitely is NOT a cost of business), so why should I pay it first before tithing? My increase is the paycheck. 2
Analytics Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 The Salt Lake Tribune has a story about this today. I think Huntsman's attorneys make a fair point when they say: “...It is patently unfair for the church, on the one hand, to publicly accuse Mr. Huntsman of making ‘unfounded’ allegations, while on the other hand, refusing to disclose the very documents that purport to refute Mr. Huntsman’s allegations.” The Church's position, "“The only reasonable conclusion is that Mr. Huntsman impermissibly seeks to ‘promote public scandal’ through the publication of the church’s confidential financial materials in an effort to cause irreparable harm to the church,” seems to be conceding the point. Why are the Church's finances "extremely sensitive"? LDS Church seeks to keep ‘extremely sensitive’ financial data under wraps in fight with James Huntsman (sltrib.com)
bluebell Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 8 minutes ago, Analytics said: The Salt Lake Tribune has a story about this today. I think Huntsman's attorneys make a fair point when they say: “...It is patently unfair for the church, on the one hand, to publicly accuse Mr. Huntsman of making ‘unfounded’ allegations, while on the other hand, refusing to disclose the very documents that purport to refute Mr. Huntsman’s allegations.” The Church's position, "“The only reasonable conclusion is that Mr. Huntsman impermissibly seeks to ‘promote public scandal’ through the publication of the church’s confidential financial materials in an effort to cause irreparable harm to the church,” seems to be conceding the point. Why are the Church's finances "extremely sensitive"? LDS Church seeks to keep ‘extremely sensitive’ financial data under wraps in fight with James Huntsman (sltrib.com) As to the bold, is it true (I've only heard it spoken on this board so I don't know) that Huntsman previously did not find it unfair for the church to refuse to disclose certain documents? If so, I'm interested in understanding what has changed that now makes it unfair when it wasn't unfair before.
Tacenda Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Can they not go to the church for help? I guess I'm still not sure what you are saying. Plus, I disagree that it's obvious that "increase" is after bills are paid. In a business situation--net vs. gross--then yes, it makes sense to pay tithing after the bills are paid because those bills are what allowed you to make the money, they are the cost of business. But in a paycheck situation, that doesn't make sense to me. My netflix account didn't allow me to earn my paycheck (it most definitely is NOT a cost of business), so why should I pay it first before tithing? My increase is the paycheck. In my response to SwedishLDS, I referred to his idea one should go to family or friends, and even drain savings and then as a last resort the church! Wouldn't need to happen if we paid the church "increase" instead of "income", IMO. Edited March 16, 2022 by Tacenda
bluebell Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 12 minutes ago, Tacenda said: In my response to SwedishLDS, I referred to his idea one should go to family or friends, and even drain or savings and then as a last resort the church! Wouldn't need to happen if we paid the church "increase" instead of "income", IMO. I feel like you keep moving the goalposts a bit and I'm more confused now than before. First, you said it was bad advice for the church to tell people to pay tithing first before bills. When I questioned that you didn't answer the question but instead said that the church shouldn't leave people to believe they can go to it for help. When I questioned that, you again didn't answer that question but said that people wouldn't need to go to the church for help if they didn't pay tithing until after they paid bills. Maybe if we start over? I'll try to clarify my questions too. 1) If God blesses you for having faith to pay tithing when money is scarce, then isn't it good advice for the church to tell people to pay their tithing first? 2) Or do you believe that God does not bless people for exercising faith to pay tithing and that's why you think it's bad advice? 3) Can church members not go to the church for financial help if after paying tithing they need some? 4) What evidence is there that "increase" cannot reasonably be interpreted to mean paying on a paycheck before bills are paid?
Analytics Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 34 minutes ago, bluebell said: As to the bold, is it true (I've only heard it spoken on this board so I don't know) that Huntsman previously did not find it unfair for the church to refuse to disclose certain documents? If so, I'm interested in understanding what has changed that now makes it unfair when it wasn't unfair before. If I understand his point, he's saying it became unfair when the Church "publicly accused Mr. Huntsman of making ‘unfounded’ allegations."
rongo Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 19 minutes ago, Analytics said: If I understand his point, he's saying it became unfair when the Church "publicly accused Mr. Huntsman of making ‘unfounded’ allegations." Everyone and their dog knows that this is the "throw spaghetti against the wall and hope something sticks" phase. Huntsman is on an unfriendly venue with a bad case,and he and his attorney know they are going to lose. They are trying to milk whatever bad press they can muster by dragging out appeals,no matter how desperate. I think there is a very good chance that the court will see it for what it is. 3
bluebell Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 54 minutes ago, Analytics said: If I understand his point, he's saying it became unfair when the Church "publicly accused Mr. Huntsman of making ‘unfounded’ allegations." So before all this, the church did not publicly state anywhere that Huntsman's claims were unfounded? Ok, that could be true. It's weird if it is. Even if they never bothered to say it before now, since he's suing the church and the church believes it's innocent, hasn't it always been a given that the church believes his claims are unfounded? Or is his lawyer saying that the church knows that Huntsman has been telling the truth the whole time and it's unfair that now they are saying he's not?
Tacenda Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 44 minutes ago, bluebell said: I feel like you keep moving the goalposts a bit and I'm more confused now than before. First, you said it was bad advice for the church to tell people to pay tithing first before bills. When I questioned that you didn't answer the question but instead said that the church shouldn't leave people to believe they can go to it for help. When I questioned that, you again didn't answer that question but said that people wouldn't need to go to the church for help if they didn't pay tithing until after they paid bills. Maybe if we start over? I'll try to clarify my questions too. 1) If God blesses you for having faith to pay tithing when money is scarce, then isn't it good advice for the church to tell people to pay their tithing first? 2) Or do you believe that God does not bless people for exercising faith to pay tithing and that's why you think it's bad advice? 3) Can church members not go to the church for financial help if after paying tithing they need some? 4) What evidence is there that "increase" cannot reasonably be interpreted to mean paying on a paycheck before bills are paid? I just think it should go back to increase or interest, but understand the church wouldn't be as wealthy. And think that telling people to pay tithing before bills is not a good way for individuals to feel responsible and act like adults. Sure that is a great idea, but I'm speaking about a situation that is separate from that, so unexpected bills etc. And then have to go to family and friends, that could be an internal family or friend problem. I don't believe the Bible meant make a church wealthy. Just wanted the pastors to be able to give 💯 to it's congregations and donations/tithing would enable that. Have to go, thanks for being patient with me.
bluebell Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 Just now, Tacenda said: 1-I just think it should go back to increase or interest, but understand the church wouldn't be as wealthy. 2-And think that telling people to pay tithing before bills is not a good way for individuals to feel responsible and act like adults. 3-Sure that is a great idea, but I'm speaking about a situation that is separate from that, so unexpected bills etc. 4-And then have to go to family and friends, that could be an internal family or friend problem. 5-I don't believe the Bible meant make a church wealthy. Just wanted the pastors to be able to give 💯 to it's congregations and donations/tithing would enable that. Have to go, thanks for being patient with me. I numbered your statements so it would be easier to respond: 1-Do you believe that the church is teaching something that it knows isn't true because it wants to be more wealthy? 2-What does having faith to pay tithing have to do with being a responsible adult? In many cases (certainly not all), being irresponsible with money is what caused someone to not have enough of it. Whether or not they are paying their tithing doesn't impact that. 3-I'm not sure what unexpected bills has to do it anything. You can still go to the church for unexpected bills. 4-they are asked if there is any family (never heard the church ask about friends) that can help. If there isn't, then the church doesn't just ignore them. 5-How would a congregation building 200 temples in dozens of countries? How would they give a billion dollars in aid, both locally and overseas? How would they send out hundreds of thousands of missionaries at an expense greater than the missionaries pay? How would they pay for chapels and programs in parts of the world that were not capable of supporting themselves even if their members were paying a full tithe? Do you really believe that all God cares about is that every congregation has a paid full time pastor and that's the only reason why He asks us to pay tithing? 2
Tacenda Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, bluebell said: I numbered your statements so it would be easier to respond: 1-Do you believe that the church is teaching something that it knows isn't true because it wants to be more wealthy? 2-What does having faith to pay tithing have to do with being a responsible adult? In many cases (certainly not all), being irresponsible with money is what caused someone to not have enough of it. Whether or not they are paying their tithing doesn't impact that. 3-I'm not sure what unexpected bills has to do it anything. You can still go to the church for unexpected bills. 4-they are asked if there is any family (never heard the church ask about friends) that can help. If there isn't, then the church doesn't just ignore them. 5-How would a congregation building 200 temples in dozens of countries? How would they give a billion dollars in aid, both locally and overseas? How would they send out hundreds of thousands of missionaries at an expense greater than the missionaries pay? How would they pay for chapels and programs in parts of the world that were not capable of supporting themselves even if their members were paying a full tithe? Do you really believe that all God cares about is that every congregation has a paid full time pastor and that's the only reason why He asks us to pay tithing? 1. Not when you put it that way, no. 2. If a situation should arise and it's a decision to pay a bill or pay tithing first, I think the Lord would understand to pay the bill and not rely on family to pay it. He would want someone to stand on their own feet rather than pay the Lord, IMO. Maybe pay tithing later? And the consequence is they would not get a recommend possibly, so hopefully they would be careful in their spending. It's called self respect and I think the Lord wouldn't want members to have to go to family/friends or drain their savings. It's SwedishLDS that mentioned family and friends btw. 3. I don't like how the church makes one relying upon them. I'm not thinking of it as the church/Lord together here. Just church. 4. Sure the church doesn't ignore, and I'm grateful for the time that my family growing up was helped with food when my dad was laid off, and working 3 jobs to support 6 children. 5. Touche' 6. I think the church isn't anything like the churches in the Bible. So they are added upon, ideas. Were their missionaries/temples like in the Bible times? So it's not the same scenario. I'm just applying the scriptures in the Bible about paying tithing. And where I assume the church in it's beginning, got it. And in the early church there weren't temples. In fact that's a problem for me, I think Jesus tore the curtain, and said there is no need for the temple and sacrifice since He laid His life down for us. Thanks again for your patience, I am in a rock and a hard place trying to answer your questions, albeit the answer to #5. Edited March 16, 2022 by Tacenda
bluebell Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Tacenda said: 1. Not when you put it that way, no. 2. If a situation should arise and it's a decision to pay a bill or pay tithing first, I think the Lord would understand to pay the bill and not rely on family to pay it. He would want someone to stand on their own feet rather than pay the Lord, IMO. Maybe pay tithing later? And the consequence is they would not get a recommend possibly, so hopefully they would be careful in their spending. It's called self respect and I think the Lord wouldn't want members to have to go to family/friends or drain their savings to pay tithing which goes to elaborate temple furnishings etc. It's SwedishLDS that mentioned family and friends btw. 3. I don't like how the church makes one relying of them. I'm not thinking church/Lord together here. 4. Sure the church doesn't ignore, and I'm grateful for the time that my family growing up was helped with food when my dad was laid off, and working 3 jobs to support 6 children. 5. Touche' 6. I think the church isn't anything like the Bible churches. So they are added upon, ideas. Were their missionaries in the Bible times? Don't know. So it's not the same scenario. I'm just applying the scriptures in the Bible about paying tithing. And where I assume the church in it's beginning, applied it. Thanks again for your patience, I am in a rock and a hard place trying to answer your questions, albeit the answer to #5. Thanks for taking the time to answer. 2-We'll have to agree to disagree on this. In my experience with God, He is more interested in helping us develop real faith and trust in Him, than He is on getting us to develop some form of self respect by not having to ask our family for help. I have been in a situation where the Lord very much wanted family to sacrifice to help care for other family members and it's been one of the defining learning experiences/sacred and touching experiences, of my life. 3-paying tithing requires one to rely on the Lord and His promises. It also requires sacrifice and humility. In my experience, developing those attributes has been a huge blessing in my life. Paying tithing when it was hard, and watching the Lord be in charge of my welfare, created a faith in the Lord that was later invaluable when even harder trails came my way. I sincerely shudder to think of what would have become of me if I had not already developed that kind of faith (as imperfect and weak as still is) before those trials hit. How can we learn to rely on the Lord if we are never asked to do so? Is it really a kindness to limit people's chances to develop that kind of trust in Him? I don't believe it is. 6-What does the bible actually say about tithing? Edited March 16, 2022 by bluebell 3
Tacenda Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, bluebell said: Thanks for taking the time to answer. 2-We'll have to agree to disagree on this. In my experience with God, He is more interested in helping us develop real faith and trust in Him, than He is on getting us to develop some form of self respect by not having to ask our family for help. I have been in a situation where the Lord very much wanted family to sacrifice to help care for other family members and it's been one of the defining learning experiences/sacred and touching experiences, of my life. 3-paying tithing requires one to rely on the Lord and His promises. It also requires sacrifice and humility. In my experience, developing those attributes has been a huge blessing in my life. Paying tithing when it was hard, and watching the Lord be in charge of my welfare, created a faith in the Lord that was later invaluable when even harder trails came my way. I sincerely shudder to think of what would have become of me if I had not already developed that kind of faith (as imperfect and weak as still is) before those trials hit. How can we learn to rely on the Lord if we are never asked to do so? Is it really a kindness to limit people's chances to develop that kind of trust in Him? I don't believe it is. 6-What does the bible actually say about tithing? I edited a lot of stuff out, or in. I'm happy that you've had those experiences that increased your testimony of tithing. 6-I've been checking the scriptures out as you spoke. Edited March 16, 2022 by Tacenda
bluebell Posted March 16, 2022 Posted March 16, 2022 3 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I edited a lot of stuff out, or in. I'm happy that you've had those experiences that increased your testimony of tithing. 6-I've been checking the scriptures out as you spoke.
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