Hie to Kolob Lyrics

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

Thanks for the kind words.

Certainly.

Quote

It's actually been just short of a year. So much kindness. Even in the manner of his death.

It will be quite a reunion, I have no doubt.

[theplains]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:15 AM, JLHPROF said:

That's sad.

But hymns come and go.  And it wouldn't surprise me given our very slow but steady move towards traditional Christianity and away from our unique beliefs.
That hymn was already altered once to make it more palatable.

Maybe someday the LDS Church will come to believe in the same Jesus Christ that traditional Christianity
believes in (i.e. he is not a spirit child of heavenly parents who became a God).

[JLHPROF]

27 minutes ago, theplains said:

Maybe someday the LDS Church will come to believe in the same Jesus Christ that traditional Christianity
believes in (i.e. he is not a spirit child of heavenly parents who became a God).

I hope not because then they'd be wrong.

Edited August 11, 2021 by JLHPROF

[InCognitus]

7 hours ago, theplains said:

Maybe someday the LDS Church will come to believe in the same Jesus Christ that traditional Christianity
believes in (i.e. he is not a spirit child of heavenly parents who became a God).

Ah, but he is a spirit child of heavenly parents who became God.  Same question addressed elsewhere here.

Do you believe Jesus was "begotten before the worlds"?  Do you believe Jesus was "highly exalted" by his Father?

[Navidad]

16 hours ago, theplains said:

Maybe someday the LDS Church will come to believe in the same Jesus Christ that traditional Christianity
believes in (i.e. he is not a spirit child of heavenly parents who became a God).

What does an individual have to believe about Jesus Christ to be able to be called a Christian in your view of traditional Christianity? What level of Christological sophistication is necessary to be born again?

 

[Tacenda]

On 8/11/2021 at 3:27 PM, theplains said:

Maybe someday the LDS Church will come to believe in the same Jesus Christ that traditional Christianity
believes in (i.e. he is not a spirit child of heavenly parents who became a God).

There are plenty of variations in all the Christian churches, I believe.

[Kenngo1969]

On 8/11/2021 at 3:27 PM, theplains said:

Maybe someday the LDS Church will come to believe in the same Jesus Christ that traditional Christianity
believes in (i.e. he is not a spirit child of heavenly parents who became a God).

 

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

There are plenty of variations in all the Christian churches, I believe.

I would rep you for this, if'n ah could!

Alas, I hope this'll do, so here ya go: +1!   

 

[theplains]

On 8/12/2021 at 1:28 AM, InCognitus said:

Do you believe Jesus was "begotten before the worlds"?  Do you believe Jesus was "highly exalted" by his Father?

Please ignore if this appears as a duplicate.

In our church, begotten does not mean being born of heavenly parents. There is a reference to Jesus
being the first begotten of the dead. Jesus, as God, became a man and thus put aside his status. In
the resurrection, he was exalted back to his former state. Exaltation (with its many references in the
Bible and Book of Mormon) does not mean becoming a god/God.

There are also references to firstborn in the scriptures.

Joseph, though not the firstborn of Jacob, received the inheritance as though he were the firstborn (1
Chr. 5:1–2), as also did Ephraim (Gen. 48; Jer. 31:9)."  Exodus 4:22 says, "And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh,
Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn."  Speaking of David (verses 20), Psalm 89:27
says, "Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth."   Jeremiah 31:9 says, "They
shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I  will cause them to walk by the rivers
of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my
firstborn."

Firstborn does not mean first born.

[InCognitus]

On 8/17/2021 at 7:49 AM, theplains said:

On 8/11/2021 at 10:28 PM, InCognitus said:

Do you believe Jesus was "begotten before the worlds"?  Do you believe Jesus was "highly exalted" by his Father?

Please ignore if this appears as a duplicate.

In our church, begotten does not mean being born of heavenly parents. There is a reference to Jesus
being the first begotten of the dead. Jesus, as God, became a man and thus put aside his status. In
the resurrection, he was exalted back to his former state. Exaltation (with its many references in the
Bible and Book of Mormon) does not mean becoming a god/God.

There are also references to firstborn in the scriptures.

Joseph, though not the firstborn of Jacob, received the inheritance as though he were the firstborn (1
Chr. 5:1–2), as also did Ephraim (Gen. 48; Jer. 31:9)."  Exodus 4:22 says, "And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh,
Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn."  Speaking of David (verses 20), Psalm 89:27
says, "Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth."   Jeremiah 31:9 says, "They
shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I  will cause them to walk by the rivers
of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my
firstborn."

The fact that there are other meanings of "firstborn" in scripture does not mean that "firstborn" does not mean "first born":

On 8/17/2021 at 7:49 AM, theplains said:

Firstborn does not mean first born.

Except when it does, for example:   Luke 2:7  "And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes..."

You alluded to Colossians 1:18, but the context of the passage puts Jesus as "the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature" (verse 15), and "he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."  Clearly there are literal and figurative ways to understand "firstborn" going on here.  And before the beginning, before creation, Jesus was the "firstbegotten" of the Father.

But please note my question:  Do you believe Jesus was "begotten before the worlds"?

Your answer seems to indicate that you do not believe that. 

Why does it seem like a lot of modern Protestant Christians are distancing themselves from the doctrine that Jesus is the "firstborn" of the Father, that he was begotten of God from the beginning?  This is, or was at one time, a central tenant of creedal Christianity.

For example, the Nicene Creed states:

"We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made".

The Athanasian Creed states:

"The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding…  For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man. God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood."

And the Creed of the First Council of Constantinople (A.D. 381):

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made."

The teachings of the early Christian Fathers are also clear on this point, and also their teaching that Jesus is an "offspring" of God.  Is the shedding of this doctrine a Protestant thing?  Or is it a change in doctrine only because it is too close to what those "Mormons" believe?