Genesis was Right: A Water World

[Stargazer]

It says in Genesis that in the beginning, Earth was a water world:

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. (Gen. 1:9,10)

And it now appears that this may be an accurate description. Perhaps a few years before some of us assume, but nevertheless...

Another thing of interest is that if the waters are gathered together into one place, it seems possible that the land would be gathered together into one place as well. I.e. the supercontinent Gondwanaland.

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Stargazer

[The Nehor]

"A few years before some of us assume"? That is a radical interpretation of the word "few".

This isn't a huge change. There was a general belief that most of the Earth was covered in water in that era but geological evidence came out just over a year ago suggesting it was probably totally covered.

And no, there was no ark. There wouldn't have been any wood to build it out of. The earliest life on Earth is at least 3.4 billion years old but we may be able to add a billion to that. It is hard to find surviving fossils that old. We got a little lucky finding the fossils that back that up. It is questionable there was any multicellular life at all and definitely no trees.

[Calm]

Extra points for Yellowknife and negative points because I couldn’t see all of his Tshirt. 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

"A few years before some of us assume"? That is a radical interpretation of the word "few".

This isn't a huge change. There was a general belief that most of the Earth was covered in water in that era but geological evidence came out just over a year ago suggesting it was probably totally covered.

And no, there was no ark. There wouldn't have been any wood to build it out of. The earliest life on Earth is at least 3.4 billion years old but we may be able to add a billion to that. It is hard to find surviving fossils that old. We got a little lucky finding the fossils that back that up. It is questionable there was any multicellular life at all and definitely no trees.

Isn’t the depth of the water though significantly different?  I remember it being taught as being rather shallow in my school years.

[Stargazer]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

"A few years before some of us assume"? That is a radical interpretation of the word "few".

It's a joke, my friend. 

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This isn't a huge change. There was a general belief that most of the Earth was covered in water in that era but geological evidence came out just over a year ago suggesting it was probably totally covered.

Gee, I think that's what the video said.

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And no, there was no ark. There wouldn't have been any wood to build it out of. The earliest life on Earth is at least 3.4 billion years old but we may be able to add a billion to that. It is hard to find surviving fossils that old. We got a little lucky finding the fossils that back that up. It is questionable there was any multicellular life at all and definitely no trees.

The water world that is the subject of the video predates Noah by about 450 million years. I think you're a little confused between pre-Adam times and Noah times. There's a "few" years between them. The ark was built a long time after dry land appeared, and by that time there was plenty of wood.

Opinions as to the earliest life do vary. The earliest is for about 4.41 billion years ago. See: A timescale for the origin and evolution of all of life on Earth, at Phys.org, cited in Wikipedia at Earliest known life forms. I provided a cite on Phys.org for the claim in Wiki because you seem to be allergic to Wiki references, for some reason.

Are you trying to dispute something?  I am getting the feeling that you think I am some kind of young earth creationist. If you think that, you're wrong. And nothing you wrote above (except for the lack of wood to build an ark) disagrees with anything I've written, or with anything Anton Petrov said in his video.

[Stargazer]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

Isn’t the depth of the water though significantly different?  I remember it being taught as being rather shallow in my school years.

"Shallow" is a vague and subjective word, I'm afraid. The Earth is big when compared to me, but vanishingly tiny when compared to the Sun. If the land mass of the earth were to be levelled to a cue ball, making the earth a perfect sphere, what would the depth of the sea be? One mile? A half mile? That might be shallow or it might be deep. It would still drown me, eventually. I can't tread water long enough for dry land to appear beneath me.  

I have read that there is probably more water locked in the rocks of the earth's crust than in all the seas put together. Many times more. If all of that were brought to the surface, the depth of the sea might be far more than the deepest spot now (the Challenger Deep in the Marianas Trench).

[The Nehor]

23 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

It's a joke, my friend. 

Gee, I think that's what the video said.

The water world that is the subject of the video predates Noah by about 450 million years. I think you're a little confused between pre-Adam times and Noah times. There's a "few" years between them. The ark was built a long time after dry land appeared, and by that time there was plenty of wood.

Opinions as to the earliest life do vary. The earliest is for about 4.41 billion years ago. See: A timescale for the origin and evolution of all of life on Earth, at Phys.org, cited in Wikipedia at Earliest known life forms. I provided a cite on Phys.org for the claim in Wiki because you seem to be allergic to Wiki references, for some reason.

Are you trying to dispute something?  I am getting the feeling that you think I am some kind of young earth creationist. If you think that, you're wrong. And nothing you wrote above (except for the lack of wood to build an ark) disagrees with anything I've written, or with anything Anton Petrov said in his video.

No, not really disputing. Being mindlessly pedantic because I am exhausted. I was not attempting to paint you as a specific kind of weirdo.

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. (Gen. 1:9,10)

Interesting to think about where that "one place" was where all of the water gathered, considering how the planet still has a lot of water under the surface... under the oceans and continents as they are now formed.

Also interesting to notice that the "one place" where all of the water was gathered was called or  referred to as the Seas, as if there was more than one Sea where all of the water was gathered into that one place.  Why not just the "Sea" ?

Quote

Another thing of interest is that if the waters are gathered together into one place, it seems possible that the land would be gathered together into one place as well. I.e. the supercontinent Gondwanaland.

Where the "one" place was for all of the land is a lot easier to figure out than where all of the water was back then.  All of the land was between all of the waters... with water both above the land and below it.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Ahab

[JAHS]

He talks about all the water under the crust of the earth which could have come up to help cover the earth along with the rain:

"In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." (Gen 7:11)

[Stargazer]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No, not really disputing. Being mindlessly pedantic because I am exhausted. I was not attempting to paint you as a specific kind of weirdo.

Just a generic weirdo, yes. I understand perfectly.

And just to make it clear: I treasure my weirdness. It's part of my identity!

[Stargazer]

12 hours ago, Ahab said:

Interesting to think about where that "one place" was where all of the water gathered, considering how the planet still has a lot of water under the surface... under the oceans and continents as they are now formed.

Also interesting to notice that the "one place" where all of the water was gathered was called or  referred to as the Seas, as if there was more than one Sea where all of the water was gathered into that one place.  Why not just the "Sea" ?

Don't get too hung up on literary devices. The word "sea" is one of those vague terms that is used in English for everything from the baptismal font in Solomon's temple all the way up to the Caspian Sea, the largest freshwater lake by volume in the world, though far smaller than the smallest ocean. When we say that Columbus sailed the Seven Seas, we're wrong. He only sailed one aea -- the Atlantic Ocean. Or maybe he sailed the Mediterranean Sea, given that he was Italian. The Venetians used the term "seven seas" in the phrase "to sail the seven seas" to mean somebody who sailed a lot and was pretty good at it. The ancient Romans called the navigable network in the mouths of the Po river that discharged into saltmarshes on the Adriatic shore the "seven seas" as a colloquialism. At least as translated into English.

And don't forget that "sea" is an English word, not Hebrew. Whatever Hebrew word is used for the concept of a body of water, the word "sea" only approximates the meaning of the original word. And recall, also, that the KJV translators were taking literary Hebrew and converting it to literary English. Talk about "lost in translation" -- even better, talk about "added in translation."

12 hours ago, Ahab said:

Where the "one" place was for all of the land is a lot easier to figure out than where all of the water was back then.  All of the land was between all of the waters... with water both above the land and below it.

I don't see that one was easier to figure out than the other, actually.

Pangaea (or "all earth") was the bulk of dry land gathered into one supercontinent, and it lasted from 335 to 175 million years ago. Its corresponding "all ocean" is called Panthalassa, and to infer one is to infer the other, by default.

Or maybe I am not understanding what you mean.

[Ahab]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Don't get too hung up on literary devices. The word "sea" is one of those vague terms that is used in English for everything from the baptismal font in Solomon's temple all the way up to the Caspian Sea, the largest freshwater lake by volume in the world, though far smaller than the smallest ocean. When we say that Columbus sailed the Seven Seas, we're wrong. He only sailed one aea -- the Atlantic Ocean. Or maybe he sailed the Mediterranean Sea, given that he was Italian. The Venetians used the term "seven seas" in the phrase "to sail the seven seas" to mean somebody who sailed a lot and was pretty good at it. The ancient Romans called the navigable network in the mouths of the Po river that discharged into saltmarshes on the Adriatic shore the "seven seas" as a colloquialism. At least as translated into English.

And don't forget that "sea" is an English word, not Hebrew. Whatever Hebrew word is used for the concept of a body of water, the word "sea" only approximates the meaning of the original word. And recall, also, that the KJV translators were taking literary Hebrew and converting it to literary English. Talk about "lost in translation" -- even better, talk about "added in translation."

I don't see that one was easier to figure out than the other, actually.

Pangaea (or "all earth") was the bulk of dry land gathered into one supercontinent, and it lasted from 335 to 175 million years ago. Its corresponding "all ocean" is called Panthalassa, and to infer one is to infer the other, by default.

Or maybe I am not understanding what you mean.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second bday.

9 ¶ And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

According to what is written in English, the waters on this planet were both under and above what God called Heaven before God let the waters under Heaven be gathered unto one place to let dry land appear... with no water on the dry land.

So picture that...above Heaven there were waters and below Heaven there was dry land and waters with all of the waters under Heaven in one place.  And then God called the dry land Earth and all of the waters under Heaven he called Seas.

You'll have to let me know whether or not you understand what I just said the text says in English.

[Stargazer]

31 minutes ago, Ahab said:

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second bday.

9 ¶ And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

According to what is written in English, the waters on this planet were both under and above what God called Heaven before God let the waters under Heaven be gathered unto one place to let dry land appear... with no water on the dry land.

So picture that...above Heaven there were waters and below Heaven there was dry land and waters with all of the waters under Heaven in one place.  And then God called the dry land Earth and all of the waters under Heaven he called Seas.

You'll have to let me know whether or not you understand what I just said the text says in English.

I think I understand what you said the text says in English. I don't think that that is what it means. I am not at all sure that we have the means to understand what is written, in either Hebrew or English. It's like a lot of other mystical texts in the OT. It makes no sense, usually, though perhaps at some time in the future we will learn what sense it does make. 

Here's what I believe: the Universe, including the earth and our Solar System, was created according to the laws that God set forth in their creation. I believe that the solar system is something like 4.5 billion years old, counting from when the sun's fusion fire ignited. And I believe that the earth was not created through some mystical magical process, but was created according to the laws which God set forth. As we learn more about those laws, and about the history of the solar system and the earth, the closer we will be to a full understanding of how God did it. The OP offers an insight into how the discoveries of science seem to increasingly track with revealed theology.

I've heard different interpretations of the above verses over time. One of them involved the idea that all that water that came down in Noah's flood was held above the earth somehow (the waters which were above the firmament), possibly as constant clouds, until God made the Flood came down. Of course there's no word on where all that water went after the Flood receded.

What is the firmament, as given in Genesis? The sky? How could waters be above the sky? I am sure we don't understand what all this means. One of these days we will know. But not today.

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I think I understand what you said the text says in English. I don't think that that is what it means. I am not at all sure that we have the means to understand what is written, in either Hebrew or English. It's like a lot of other mystical texts in the OT. It makes no sense, usually, though perhaps at some time in the future we will learn what sense it does make. 

Here's what I believe: the Universe, including the earth and our Solar System, was created according to the laws that God set forth in their creation. I believe that the solar system is something like 4.5 billion years old, counting from when the sun's fusion fire ignited. And I believe that the earth was not created through some mystical magical process, but was created according to the laws which God set forth. As we learn more about those laws, and about the history of the solar system and the earth, the closer we will be to a full understanding of how God did it. The OP offers an insight into how the discoveries of science seem to increasingly track with revealed theology.

I've heard different interpretations of the above verses over time. One of them involved the idea that all that water that came down in Noah's flood was held above the earth somehow (the waters which were above the firmament), possibly as constant clouds, until God made the Flood came down. Of course there's no word on where all that water went after the Flood receded.

What is the firmament, as given in Genesis? The sky? How could waters be above the sky? I am sure we don't understand what all this means. One of these days we will know. But not today.

What "we" do or do not understand depends largely upon who you are referring to by the use of that "we", I suppose.  Clearly some of us know what some others of us do not know.

Anyway, yes, the sky is included in what old timers oft referred to as heaven/Heaven, and much like some referred to the seven seas (while understanding all were somehow connected) they also referred to seven heavens or degrees of heaven.

So here is kinda sorta what I think about the creation of this planet:  Yes, the universe is eternal and has been around forever, but sometime around 7,000 years ago our Lord created this planet using already existing matter as recorded in scripture.

And those of us who still don't understand that may someday find out that it all happened just as God has told prophets it did.

[Stargazer]

52 minutes ago, Ahab said:

What "we" do or do not understand depends largely upon who you are referring to by the use of that "we", I suppose.  Clearly some of us know what some others of us do not know.

Well, I know more than you. About some things. Obviously not about all.

52 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Anyway, yes, the sky is included in what old timers oft referred to as heaven/Heaven, and much like some referred to the seven seas (while understanding all were somehow connected) they also referred to seven heavens or degrees of heaven.

So here is kinda sorta what I think about the creation of this planet:  Yes, the universe is eternal and has been around forever, but sometime around 7,000 years ago our Lord created this planet using already existing matter as recorded in scripture.

And those of us who still don't understand that may someday find out that it all happened just as God has told prophets it did.

I do understand that you are a literalist. And I am sure you believe that whatever God told His prophets was perfectly understood by them and correctly transmitted to us. Especially about the origins of the universe. And that the Bible is a science textbook.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to disagree.

 

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Well, I know more than you. About some things. Obviously not about all.

And I know that is true about everybody except for those of us who know everything about everything.

2 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I do understand that you are a literalist.

Only regarding the things I know should be understood literally.

2 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

And I am sure you believe that whatever God told His prophets was perfectly understood by them and correctly transmitted to us.

Perfectly understood by them, yes, as far as they correctly understood God, but not necessarily perfectly understood by those who read their words because not all of us receive the Holy Spirit as our guide to understand what God tells us.

2 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Especially about the origins of the universe.

Nothing particularly daunting about understanding the universe.  With the aid of the Holy Spirit all of us can know and understand the truth about everything.

2 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

And that the Bible is a science textbook.

No, a record of what actually happened as it happened and as witnessed by those who saw what happened.  Much better than a book written by those trying to understand what happened and who weren't there to see what happened..

2 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

You're entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to disagree.

Yes, I know that too.  Agency is wonderful and all of us can believe whatever we want to believe.

[2BizE]

I don’t believe in the Noah and ark myth. Like the Adam and Eve myth it is used to tell a story of the origin of people and the earth.

[Ahab]

24 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

I don’t believe in the Noah and ark myth. Like the Adam and Eve myth it is used to tell a story of the origin of people and the earth.

I sometimes wonder if people like you, who don't believe those people existed, will ever be curious enough to find out whether or not those people actually existed, and by extension, still live. 

Like when you get to the "spirit world", for example, if you would try to track back your family history to them. starting with your own parents or grand parents while asking each generation of your parents/grandparents t introduce you to their parents which by extension would also be your own parents/grandparents, however great or grand they would be.  That is a LOT of generations so it would probably take quite a while, I imagine, to finally get back to that generation that would have been around in Noah's mortal lifetime.  And then from there go back to the first mortals who ever lived on this planet, who we refer to as Adam and Eve, in English.