Tacenda Posted February 24, 2021 Posted February 24, 2021 8 hours ago, Calm said: Found this similar case looking for a copy or excerpts of the Handbook versions, they had subpoenaed records of his excommunication and relevant documents, including pastoral (nonconfessional) communication. Would seem to suggest the red flag documents are protected as intra faith communication for the purpose of church discipline. https://cite.case.law/frd/133/610/ Calm's on the case!! 👍
Calm Posted February 24, 2021 Posted February 24, 2021 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Calm's on the case!! 👍 I did get carried away last night seeing how far google could take me. It always strikes me as both wonderful and horrific how much info is out there about people (I was finding articles about his high school graduation, wedding, obits and court cases of family members, need to borrow my husband’s account for LinkedIn to see his job History as he had a masters of education first, don’t know if he was a teacher or administrator first or always a counselor. Edited February 24, 2021 by Calm
Tacenda Posted February 24, 2021 Posted February 24, 2021 10 minutes ago, Calm said: I did get carried away last night seeing how far google could take me. It always strikes me as both wonderful and horrific how much info is out there about people (I was finding articles about his high school graduation, wedding, obits and court cases of family members, need to borrow my husband’s account for LinkedIn to see his job History as he had a masters of education first, don’t know if he was a teacher or administrator first or always a counselor. Speaking of LinkedIn..I had to open one a few of years ago while attending night school in the medical field and then midway changed my mind deciding it wasn't for me. The class I was taking had me open an account up. The day before yesterday I decided to look myself up on the internet to see how much information came up, and my LinkedIn account came up with all of my information, but no address thank goodness, I shut it down anyway. Not sure if it's only myself that can see it or not. The reason I looked myself up is I was hoping no one could see my current address. I had been discussing on FB in a private group of my home town, and the opening post was about the mask mandate ending in Utah, Feb. 22nd. (But luckily that has been updated to be still on the books for a few more months!) Anyway, the arguments on FB got a little heated and the comments were so ridiculous and saying how masks can cause brain damage etc. And all kinds of things, well there was this guy that was really scaring me, thinking he might come after me. Turns out my voting record came up with my current address dang it!
smac97 Posted February 24, 2021 Author Posted February 24, 2021 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: I do agree that many will look at it as the church has billions why not sue for a lot of $ I'm glad we can agree on that. It is a consideration when evaluating the overarching issues. 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: and agree that we need to make sure the church improves it's policies and procedures, The Church has improved is policies and procedures. And the attorneys in this matter are, in my view, deliberately prevaricating about this. 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: and that should be a top priority for those that sue. Well, I'm not sure about that. I have some concerns about lawsuits that try to do more than make the individual plaintiff whole. There is certainly a time and place for such "crusader"-type suits, but I think many individuals just want to, well, be made whole. So the purported objective of getting the Church to "improve" may or may not be on their radar. And there is nothing wrong with an individual choosing to litigate without that being their "top priority." Lawsuits are very stressful, time-consuming, expensive, etc. 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: Something that may or may not have come up on this thread is the information that the church helped the abuser, such as submitting a letter to the court in support of early termination of his probation. Yes, that's a weird detail. All the more so since the letter appears to have been solicited by the judge in the '83 matter. We also have very little in the way of detail about what happened, what what said, who asked who to do what, whether there was more than one letter sent, who sent it, why they sent it, whether the letter(s) was/were from just local leaders acting in their individual capacities (friends through church) or whether they were functioning in their representative capacities, and so on. Also, this seems to have really upset Mr. Hiser, so much so that it may have precipitated the lawsuit. If the Church had a long and ongoing practice of interceding on behalf of church members convicted of sex crimes, I could see why he would want the Church to stop doing that. But this case seems like quite an anomaly. And it happened a very long time ago. And it may have just been the perp's bishop acting on his own, or else acting "as bishop" but without proper authorization from the institutional Church. And this is certainly not an ongoing practice. So while I understand that it made him angry, it does not stand up as a basis for suing the Church. 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: Also, that the church allowed Kerlee to serve in leadership positions over the youth in the Corvallis Stake until the late 80's. Not sure if this has been proven yet or not. We'll see. Who knew what and when will all be important considerations. Again, this is why we have statutes of limitation. Witnesses' memory fades, or their mental faculties degrade, or the witnesses move away, or die. Holy cow. Can any of us speak intelligently and accurately about the particulars of what we knew, how we knew it, when, etc. over a period of years in the 1980s? Thanks, -Smac 1
webbles Posted February 24, 2021 Posted February 24, 2021 2 hours ago, Tacenda said: Also, that the church allowed Kerlee to serve in leadership positions over the youth in the Corvallis Stake until the late 80's. Not sure if this has been proven yet or not. What positions in the church actually constitute "leadership positions"? Per the complaint, Kerlee was a Seminary Teacher. Is that a "leadership position"? Per the complaint, Kerlee was a "Sunday School Leader". Now that sounds like a "leadership position" but the church doesn't actually have a position like that. The complaint further clarifies that as an "adult who helps to oversee, administer, or instruct within the LDS Sunday School program". So are all instructors in Sunday School a "leadership position"? Per the complaint, Kerlee was a "youth leader". Again, that sounds like a "leadership position" but, again, the church doesn't actually have that position. And the complaint doesn't further clarify what that means. So best guess would be Young Men's presidency, advisors, or instructors. But since the complaint also states that it is not talking about activities related to Boy Scouts, I think we would have to exclude advisors and potentially the presidency since they are generally also Boy Scout leaders and the activities would have been Boy Scout related. So, it feels like the complaint is really just saying that Kerlee was an instructor (either Seminary, Sunday School, or Young Men). Should an instructor be considered a "leadership position"? 1
webbles Posted February 24, 2021 Posted February 24, 2021 2 hours ago, Tacenda said: Something that may or may not have come up on this thread is the information that the church helped the abuser, such as submitting a letter to the court in support of early termination of his probation. I'd love to find more details about this old case. Supposedly, the church sent a letter to help reduce his probation from 5 years to 3 years. His conviction was for Sodomy III which is a Class C felony (the current text can be found at https://casetext.com/statute/oregon-revised-statutes/title-16-crimes-and-punishments/chapter-163-offenses-against-persons/sexual-offenses/section-163385-sodomy-in-the-third-degree). Looking at the current sentencing guidelines (see https://sentencing.umn.edu/sites/sentencing.umn.edu/files/oregon_sentencing_guidelines_2018.pdf), a Sodomy III charge has a Crime Category of 6 (with 11 being the worst category). Per the sentencing grid (see https://www.oregon.gov/cjc/resources/documents/guidelinesgrid.pdf), a Crime Category of 6 has a probation period of only 3 years. So, if Kerlee had been sentenced today with Sodomy III, he would only have a probationary period of 3 years by default. I doubt the sentencing has gotten looser over the years. So I don't know why his probation would be reduced from 5 to 3 when it should never have been 5. 1
Calm Posted February 24, 2021 Posted February 24, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, smac97 said: I'm not sure what you are referencing here. Who would be "knowing about the existence of red flag documents?" And what "red flag documents" are you referencing here? The first link you posted references what are likely annotated membership records as “red flag documents”. Quote Hiser’s lawyers want a court to order the release of the so-called “red flag” notes that documented alleged sex abuse in church membership files. “We intend to seek discovery of all the church’s ‘Red Flag’ documents to allow an Oregon jury to determine what the Mormon Church knew, when they knew it, and what they did about it,” Janci said. I was thinking if it was enough for the plaintiff to say “I have heard the Church puts red flags on records when they learn of sexual abuse, so we should be able to get all of those to show that the Church has a pattern of covering up and not protecting youth”, etc. or if they needed something more than the fact annotations exist to get records released (I think this was answered, memory is nonexistent this morning...clarifying the red flag reference is last thing I needed to do before going back to finish my ‘night’s sleep’). Edited February 24, 2021 by Calm
filovirus Posted February 24, 2021 Posted February 24, 2021 I know Bro. Hiser personally. His adapted son and my son have been playing sports together for years. These last few years have been really tough on Dave as he has been working through this struggle. I hope is all works out in the end. 1
Calm Posted February 24, 2021 Posted February 24, 2021 (edited) 32 minutes ago, filovirus said: I know Bro. Hiser personally. His adapted son and my son have been playing sports together for years. These last few years have been really tough on Dave as he has been working through this struggle. I hope is all works out in the end. Completely ignore my questions...confused victim’s name with predator’s. Need to get to sleep. Edited February 24, 2021 by Calm
smac97 Posted February 24, 2021 Author Posted February 24, 2021 54 minutes ago, filovirus said: I know Bro. Hiser personally. His adapted son and my son have been playing sports together for years. These last few years have been really tough on Dave as he has been working through this struggle. I hope is all works out in the end. Same here. I do not begrudge him this lawsuit, even if I think it has some defects. He is pursuing a reasonable course of action. I hope he can maintain his testimony and activity. He is doing far better than the aggressive and antagonistic folks like Kate Kelly, Sam Young, Jeremy Runnells, etc. did. I hope he finds peace. Thanks, -Smac
Teancum Posted February 24, 2021 Posted February 24, 2021 On 2/23/2021 at 4:12 PM, smac97 said: Generally, yes. Legal liability is important. It helps differentiate legitimate victims from opportunists. The Church often helps victims of abuse in other ways. I think such things would need to be addressed on a case-by-case basis. Thanks, -Smac How does the church help victims of abuse in other ways?
smac97 Posted February 24, 2021 Author Posted February 24, 2021 11 minutes ago, Teancum said: How does the church help victims of abuse in other ways? It can provide pastoral care and fellowship. Payment for counseling. Assistance for necessaries. Food. 1
Rain Posted February 24, 2021 Posted February 24, 2021 23 minutes ago, Teancum said: How does the church help victims of abuse in other ways? Counseling with therapists is one way. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted February 25, 2021 Posted February 25, 2021 On 2/23/2021 at 1:44 PM, smac97 said: .......................... Wow. That seems . . . unusual. The complaint doesn't seem to mention this at all. And it seems unusual for the Church to do such a thing. No date is given for when this happened.............. I can appreciate and respect his anger. It sounds like "active support of Kerlee" (the Church purportedly writing "a letter to a Benton County judge in support of Kerlee to shave off two years of his five-year sentence of probation for third-degree sodomy") is part of what precipitated this lawsuit. I'm not sure why the Church did this (assuming the allegation is true). Such things have happened on several occasions. Usually local friendships and family make discipline difficult, and letters do get written attesting to the goodness of the perp. At least this has happened in the past. This is not LDS Headquarters. On 2/23/2021 at 1:44 PM, smac97 said: ........................ Again, this is more press release than legal argument. And allowing a person who has committed criminal acts to join or re-join the Church is not, I think, a basis for civil liability. Wow. The Church isn't silent about child abuse. It regularly and publicly condemns it and disciplines members who do it......................... Sometimes such suits seek an out-of-court settlement, rather than an actual legal victory, with non-disclosure agreements. The LDS Church has settled some such suits.
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