Article by Benjamin E. Park Re: Dc 132

[carbon dioxide]

On 5/14/2020 at 7:28 PM, Islander said:

However, if that was the case, it could be argued that the leadership disobeyed God, ignored the commandment and have been leading the Church into rebellion for over 100 years in order to avoid persecution. The Savior said many times that we ought to be willing to suffer for the faith or we would not be worthy of eternal life. Your position would also imply that mere men can overpower, derail and negate the word and will of God with their own political musings. That would paint a pretty weak and inconsequential picture of who God is in general. So, it does matter if it was revelation or not and we should be able to defend that position.

Here are just a few instances in the scriptures of what we are to do when faced with persecution:

1 Peter 3:14

But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. And do not fear their intimidation, and do not be troubled,

1 Peter 4:16

but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.

1 Peter 5:10

After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

Matthew 5:11

“Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

Matthew 10:22

You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

Matthew 10:39

He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

Matthew 19:29

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.

Persecution exists regardless of polygamy.  Polygamy is a practice but not central to the gospel or the Church.  The church and the Lord probably both agreed that this one not an issue to fall on the sword on.  Look at the splinter groups that have followed the practice of polygamy.  They are have remained fairly stagnant. They isolate themselves and do not do any missionary work.  Polygamy in many ways is their religion rather than Christ is.  The Church suspended the practice and has moved on much further as a result.

[carbon dioxide]

On 5/20/2020 at 10:36 PM, alter idem said:

Personally, I have a problem with the wording of D&C 132, because it seems to exonerate David's practice of polygamy and maybe it is because all his wives were allowed except Bathsheba, though his many wives and children from different mothers made for a miserable dysfunctional family. There's no way God was supportive of Solomon's 1,000 wives and concubines, it's disgusting and it was his downfall.  It's possible there is some misinterpretation of these verses, but as for me, I trust the Book of Mormon explanation of polygamy, since it is the most correct of any book, and we don't say that about the doctrine and covenants. imo

Nathan speaks very clearly that God gave David his wives.  He even goes further by saying if David had been faithful, he would have given him more wives.  You suggest that Solomons 1000 wives lead to his downfall.  No they did not.  The scriptures never make the number of his wives an issue.  You and I may believe a 1000 is way too much but that was not his problem.  The scriptures are clear that it was the type of wives the Solomon had.  He took wives from other nations and they lead his heart away from God.  Whether one wife or 10,000 wives, if Solomon heart was lead away from God, the effect is the same.  I see no indication in the scriptures that if Solomon married 1000 women from Israel and they kept his heart towards the Lord that it would have been as much of a problem. 

I agree with the you on the Book of Mormon view of polygamy.  Many people practice polygamy and Jacob singles out two people who had problems in their practice of it.  I also believe that though polygamy was not probably practiced among the Nephites, I do believe it was practiced among the Jaredites at least early on.   I see indication that the brother of Jared had more than one wife.

Edited May 24, 2020 by carbon dioxide

[JLHPROF]

13 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Nathan speaks very clearly that God gave David his wives.  He even goes further by saying if David had been faithful, he would have given him more wives.  You suggest that Solomons 1000 wives lead to his downfall.  No they did not.  The scriptures never make the number of his wives an issue.  You and I may believe a 1000 is way too much but that was not his problem.  The scriptures are clear that it was the type of wives the Solomon had.  He took wives from other nations and they lead his heart away from God.  Whether one wife or 10,000 wives, if Solomon heart was lead away from God, the effect is the same.  I see no indication in the scriptures that if Solomon married 1000 women from Israel and they kept his heart towards the Lord that it would have been as much of a problem. 

I agree with the you on the Book of Mormon view of polygamy.  Many people practice polygamy and Jacob singles out two people who had problems in their practice of it.  I also believe that though polygamy was not probably practiced among the Nephites, I do believe it was practiced among the Jaredites at least early on.   I see indication that the brother of Jared had more than one wife.

Perhaps Lehi too.  It's clear from God's choice of prophets that polygamy is no sin. Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Lehi, the Brother of Jared, all polygamists and highly favored by God.

So were David and Solomon until they sinned.  Their polygamy never brought rebuke.

And the first seven Presidents of the Church all polygamists and most being given recorded revelation with not a single rebuke for their polygamy over the course of seventy years.  Polygamy is not a sin when God allows it.

Edited May 24, 2020 by JLHPROF

[alter idem]

15 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Nathan speaks very clearly that God gave David his wives.  He even goes further by saying if David had been faithful, he would have given him more wives.  You suggest that Solomons 1000 wives lead to his downfall.  No they did not.  The scriptures never make the number of his wives an issue.  You and I may believe a 1000 is way too much but that was not his problem.  The scriptures are clear that it was the type of wives the Solomon had.  He took wives from other nations and they lead his heart away from God.  Whether one wife or 10,000 wives, if Solomon heart was lead away from God, the effect is the same.  I see no indication in the scriptures that if Solomon married 1000 women from Israel and they kept his heart towards the Lord that it would have been as much of a problem. 

I agree with the you on the Book of Mormon view of polygamy.  Many people practice polygamy and Jacob singles out two people who had problems in their practice of it.  I also believe that though polygamy was not probably practiced among the Nephites, I do believe it was practiced among the Jaredites at least early on.   I see indication that the brother of Jared had more than one 

If God allowed David and Solomon to take as many wives as they wanted to, then to me it was similar to allowing the Israelites to gorge themselves on meat when the birds flew into their camp.  Given the outcome,  it was a very bad idea. David's wives and children plotted against eachother, there was incest, rivalries and treason, even love turning to hatred. Solomon had so many wives, it made a mockery of the marriage covenant instituted and sanctioned by God in the garden of Eden. His wives and concubines, Israelite and foreign, led him to error and idolatry.  His excesses in this area cleary fed and grew his weaknesses in his character, there was no discipline or wisdom later,  as he indulged in this form of debauchery. 

The Lord also allowed Joseph to give the 116 pages to Martin Harris knowing the outcome,  and I suspect this was similar.  They clearly both wanted wives and obviously believed they deserved many. But there is no question this led to their downfalls. I trust the Book of Mormon's condemnation of this excess and when you read the old testament accounts of David and Solomon, the Book of Mormon supports it being part of the reason for their errors in judgment. 

[alter idem]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Perhaps Lehi too.  It's clear from God's choice of prophets that polygamy is no sin. Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Lehi, the Brother of Jared, all polygamists and highly favored by God.

So were David and Solomon until they sinned.  Their polygamy never brought rebuke.

And the first seven Presidents of the Church all polygamists and most being given recorded revelation with not a single rebuke for their polygamy over the course of seventy years.  Polygamy is not a sin when God allows it.

That is way too much of a stretch. There is no evidence Lehi was a polygamist,  in fact, the record was detailed enough that if Lehi had another wife, she would have been mentioned. And in his condemnation of polygamy,  Jacob, his son, would certainly have referred to Lehi's polygamy to explain why he could practice it but they couldn't. I think that settles the question. 

Jared was possibly polygamist,  but we can't say for sure. We know their civilization was utterly destroyed,  so why speculate. 

You can't claim there was no rebuke of David and Solomon for polygamy, they were singled out and condemned for their polygamy in the Book of Mormon. My belief is that some of their wives were approved,  but most of Solomon's and all his concubines were not. David's treatment of his wives and children in his many families  was likely not approved. Both of them were exactly what you don't want in polygamous families,  like the flds Jeffs families; they show the worst that can come from this practice. 

Yes, polygamy can be acceptable to God, but clearly the danger of abuse with the system is obvious, one reason why it must always be a temporary practice that does not last too long. I think God made that clear in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book. 

[Calm]

8 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

So were David and Solomon until they sinned.  Their polygamy never brought rebuke.

At least Solomon....how does he not qualify just by sheer number for the violation of the below command?

Quote

17 And he shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away...

Deu 17

Edited May 24, 2020 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, alter idem said:

That is way too much of a stretch. There is no evidence Lehi was a polygamist,  in fact, the record was detailed enough that if Lehi had another wife, she would have been mentioned. And in his condemnation of polygamy,  Jacob, his son, would certainly have referred to Lehi's polygamy to explain why he could practice it but they couldn't. I think that settles the question. 

Jared was possibly polygamist,  but we can't say for sure. We know their civilization was utterly destroyed,  so why speculate. 

The Brother of Jared was the polygamist, not Jared.  Ether 1:41 & 6:20 indicate that, and he was highly favored.

And I Nephi 18 the adult Nephi clearly describes his parents including Mother Sariah as elderly while speaking of Jacob and Joseph as very young and referring to "their mother".

Quote

 Yes, polygamy can be acceptable to God, but clearly the danger of abuse with the system is obvious, one reason why it must always be a temporary practice that does not last too long.

A strange statement for a religion that believes in eternal marriage and family.  I don't see how we can possibly think polygamy was temporary in our religion.

Edited May 25, 2020 by JLHPROF

[InCognitus]

5 hours ago, alter idem said:

If God allowed David and Solomon to take as many wives as they wanted to, then to me it was similar to allowing the Israelites to gorge themselves on meat when the birds flew into their camp.  Given the outcome,  it was a very bad idea. David's wives and children plotted against eachother, there was incest, rivalries and treason, even love turning to hatred. Solomon had so many wives, it made a mockery of the marriage covenant instituted and sanctioned by God in the garden of Eden. His wives and concubines, Israelite and foreign, led him to error and idolatry.  His excesses in this area cleary fed and grew his weaknesses in his character, there was no discipline or wisdom later,  as he indulged in this form of debauchery. 

I agree with you in principle for what you say in the bolded part above.  The difference between sanctioned and unsanctioned marriages seems (to me) to hinge on what was given to them by God through proper priesthood channels, and those they took for themselves.  I referred to this in an earlier post, but Doctrine and Covenants section 132 puts it this way:

"David's wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power" (D&C 132:39)

 "Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation" (D&C 132:37).  

To do "none other things than that which they were commanded" means (among other things) to not take additional wives without the Lord's command, or to do so in unrighteousness.

In 2 Samuel 12, the LORD (through Nathan the prophet) also makes this clear.  The LORD says he gave David the wives and the house of Israel and of Judah, and he would have given him a lot more if he had asked.  But because David was responsible for the death of Uriah and he took his wife, that was all his own doing, and everything came crashing down upon him, and his house was cursed: 

Quote

7  And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8  And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
9  Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
10  Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
11  Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
12  For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

I'm not sure there is a specific number of wives that would be considered crossing the line.  But I've always liked the verses from Deuteronomy 17 referenced in Calm's post, because in the context they are conveying the same concepts:

Quote

15  Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.
16  But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.
17  Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.
18  And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:
19  And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:
20  That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.  (Deuteronomy 17:15-20)

It's all about the heart and where it leads the people, and abiding in God's law.  The "he shall not multiply horses" part (above) is not to put a limit on the specific number of horses that the king can have, but it is connected with a mode of transportation back to Egypt, and Egypt symbolizes bondage and a path away from Sinai and the covenant with God. And the "neither shall he multiply wives" part is connected to turning his heart away, which is exactly what happened with David (in taking Uriah's wife) and Solomon in marrying "strange women" (those out of the covenant).

If you have any thoughts about this, please share them.   

Edited May 25, 2020 by InCognitus

[Hamba Tuhan]

22 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

A strange statement for a religion that believes in eternal marriage and family.  I don't see how we can possibly think polygamy was temporary in our religion.

It's simple mathematics. Without a significant deficit of males, the whole thing becomes impossible.

[JLHPROF]

Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

It's simple mathematics. Without a significant deficit of males, the whole thing becomes impossible.

Not my point.  Whatever the Celestial Kingdom looks like, and however things work, if we believe in eternal marriage and priesthood sealings then the Celestial society will feature polygamous families regardless of how it's practiced.

Walking down the streets paved with gold we may see Joseph with both Emma and Eliza.  Or should we be honored with an invitation to our Savior's residence we may well find him with Mary sitting on one side and Martha on the other.

The law of polygamy may not be required in every mortal time and place but it will be present in the heavenly society.

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Walking down the streets paved with gold we may see Joseph with both Emma and Eliza.

Or we may see Joseph with just Emma.

Quote

The law of polygamy may not be required in every mortal time and place but it will be present in the heavenly society.

I suspect it may be present in a handful of cases. Mathematically, it cannot be common.

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Or we may see Joseph with just Emma.

Well that's a nasty thought considering the blessings it takes from Eliza.

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Well that's a nasty thought considering the blessings it takes from Eliza.

I believe the prophets when they teach that no blessings will be withheld from the faithful.

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I believe the prophets when they teach that no blessings will be withheld from the faithful.

And I believe the prophets when they teach that eternal marriage is necessary for exaltation and increase.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

And I believe the prophets when they teach that eternal marriage is necessary for exaltation and increase.

As do I.

[carbon dioxide]

6 hours ago, alter idem said:

Yes, polygamy can be acceptable to God, but clearly the danger of abuse with the system is obvious, one reason why it must always be a temporary practice that does not last too long. I think God made that clear in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book. 

For polygamy to be truly successful, it requires very righteous people.  It is not for everyone.  Monogamy also littered with problems.  Look at the divorce rate.  Look at the number of people who cheat on their spouses.  One can find abuse and excess in any system. 

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, carbon dioxide said:

For polygamy to be truly successful, it requires very righteous people.

That's why it's a Celestial law, not a Telestial one.  And why it's so rarely permitted in fallen mortality.

[carbon dioxide]

6 hours ago, alter idem said:

 Jared was possibly polygamist,  but we can't say for sure. We know their civilization was utterly destroyed,  so why speculate.

I play the odds on this one.

The brother of Jared has 22 daughters and sons in Ether 6:20.

Orihah replaces him has 31 daughters and sons in Ether 7:2. 

To have that many kids from one woman, I say no.  So either they both had one wife and some girlfriends on the side,  they married several women individually and they all died young or they had multiple wives.  Given from where they came from, I play the strong odds they had more than one wife. 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Not my point.  Whatever the Celestial Kingdom looks like, and however things work, if we believe in eternal marriage and priesthood sealings then the Celestial society will feature polygamous families regardless of how it's practiced.

Walking down the streets paved with gold we may see Joseph with both Emma and Eliza.  Or should we be honored with an invitation to our Savior's residence we may well find him with Mary sitting on one side and Martha on the other.

The law of polygamy may not be required in every mortal time and place but it will be present in the heavenly society.

Why, because living polygamy will be heavenly?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Whatever the Celestial Kingdom looks like, and however things work, if we believe in eternal marriage and priesthood sealings then the Celestial society will feature polygamous families regardless of how it's practiced.

Since women are having multiple Priesthood sealings to men at least after death (and a few reported living), it would seem that if one believes in all sealings performed (and not cancelled), that math is not an issue since women as well as men can have multiple spouses.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I suspect it may be present in a handful of cases. Mathematically, it cannot be common.

Unless all sealings are recognized between worthy spouses, male or female.

[alter idem]

16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It's simple mathematics. Without a significant deficit of males, the whole thing becomes impossible.

Proof of this can be seen among the FLDS. It cannot be practiced for more than a couple generations, or it starts to destroy , as it degrades the population.  They kicked out young males, the old men took younger wives to keep them malleable, then the abuse comes also. Women lose more influence and more rights, they come to be seen as a commodity to be traded for favor with men in authority and as prizes for obedience. 

And of course if polygamy is to raise up seed, as explained in the book of Mormon,  then it obviously is meant to be temporary, in this life.  In the next, I  assume there will be polygamous marriages which will be eternal, but I'm certain a lot of the ones contracted in this life among the early faithful saints, will be dissolved.  Many were not happy but they did their duty and have earned the reward of true happiness.

God loves us, he would never require eternal unhappiness. 

[alter idem]

16 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

I play the odds on this one.

The brother of Jared has 22 daughters and sons in Ether 6:20.

Orihah replaces him has 31 daughters and sons in Ether 7:2. 

To have that many kids from one woman, I say no.  So either they both had one wife and some girlfriends on the side,  they married several women individually and they all died young or they had multiple wives.  Given from where they came from, I play the strong odds they had more than one wife. 

There's no way to know, they never mention wives.  There is no way to know if he had 22 children through one ver fertile wife,  polygamy or through outliving his spouse and remarrying one or more times. I'm fine with speculating, but you've got nothing to support your position over an opposing one. The record is silent. 

[alter idem]

16 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

For polygamy to be truly successful, it requires very righteous people.  It is not for everyone.  Monogamy also littered with problems.  Look at the divorce rate.  Look at the number of people who cheat on their spouses.  One can find abuse and excess in any system. 

These are the same excuses always used. No reason to compare the two, we have revelation.  Monogamy is the standard since the garden of Eden.  It is the standard set forth in the family proclamation. Polygamy is a temporary solution for raising up seed to the Lord when he commands it, otherwise it is an abomination. For us today, it is forbidden to practice it. Only a small portion ever practiced it properly and I expect only a small portion will live this way in eternity.  I don't expect it to be a concern for me, and I let Heavenly Father worry about it in the next life. 

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, alter idem said:

There's no way to know, they never mention wives.  There is no way to know if he had 22 children through one ver fertile wife,  polygamy or through outliving his spouse and remarrying one or more times. I'm fine with speculating, but you've got nothing to support your position over an opposing one. The record is silent. 

Not really.  Ether 1 specifies that Jared had a family and the Brother of Jared had families plural.  Not speculation and clearly explains the 22 children vs Jared's single family number.