Advocacy of Incest in Tv Show

[The Nehor]

On 2/29/2020 at 3:05 AM, Bernard Gui said:

Lots of folks are not bothered by destruction of families by their selfish actions. 

True, but incest is so much more destructive and the destruction much more obvious and inevitable that I argue society has a vested interest in prohibiting it.

On 2/29/2020 at 11:21 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

Say the parties are incapable of conceiving, removing the likelihood of undesirable genetic mutation from the equation.  Couldn't someone who sees nothing wrong with incest argue that, actually, the taboo is interfering with the "rights and identities" of consenting adults who wish to engage in it?  Didn't we see that same argument employed in support of gay marriage?  If one's sexual identity is fundamental to who one is, and if the parties are capable of consenting to behavior which arises from that sexual identity, and if they do, in fact, consent to such behavior, who is anyone else to object? 

The taboo against homse*ual intimate relations sprang, we were told, from nothing more than prejudice.  Once the possibility of conceiving offspring with genetic complications is removed from the equation, isn't the exact same argument applicable in exactly the same way and exactly to the same degree to incestuous relationships as it is to gay marriage/intimate relations?  Why is the argument applicable to homos*xual marriage/intimate relations but not to infertile incestuous relationships?  (I know you believe that, inherently, consent is impossible between incestuous partners, but I'm not convinced.)

No, people disliking same sex relationships and not wanting to invite Adam’s boyfriend Steve to Thanksgiving is not on the same level as incest. Your sister becoming your stepmom is much more fundamental. It is redefining family relationships on a more fundamental level. It is incredibly psychologically damaging. Society can and should prohibit it.

Edited March 1, 2020 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

On 2/29/2020 at 4:45 AM, Calm said:

Or they may not see it as destroyed, but adapting.

Adapt to your younger brother being your new dad! Toughen up!

[Calm]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Adapt to your younger brother being your new dad! Toughen up!

It was the middle of the night and I took the question generically, as in all cases where family structure is to some extent destroyed.  Intentional incest in an immediate family is not something that is adapted to, imo, but endured and coped and hopefully healed from.  I am much less certain though about accidental incest or relationships that start as adults because parents get married and suddenly a stranger one has no history with is a step sibling.  The emotional history between the two not being there puts it into a different category. Relationships between step parent and step child, otoh, that has to be destructive on many levels (age, destroying the relationship between the other parent and child, the power dynamic, etc).

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

True, but incest is so much more destructive and the destruction much more obvious and inevitable that I argue society has a vested interest in prohibiting it.

No, people disliking same sex relationships and not wanting to invite Adam’s boyfriend Steve to Thanksgiving is not on the same level as incest. Your sister becoming your stepmom is much more fundamental. It is redefining family relationships on a more fundamental level. It is incredibly psychologically damaging. Society can and should prohibit it.

Those opposing the legalization and legitimization of gay marriage made some of those same arguments.

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Adapt to your younger brother being your new dad! Toughen up!

Adapt to your dad, who, formerly, was in an opposite-sex relationship which resulted in your birth, divorcing your mom to marry some other guy!  Suck it up!  Toughen up!

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

True, but incest is so much more destructive and the destruction much more obvious and inevitable that I argue society has a vested interest in prohibiting it.

From my experience in the addiction  recovery program, I might say there is total, obvious, and inevitable destruction there, too. I have been sitting in a courtroom where narcissism, emotional abuse, and pornography led to gruesome murders of children and suicide. Hard to get any worse than that. IMO, selfishness takes many forms.

I mentioned a teacher colleague in a same-sex marriage who had a boy from a donor father. Her partner then had a girl from a different donor. I know it’s an unusual situation, but one that may become more common. Would their children be included in those societal concerns? Are they brother and sister?

Edited March 2, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

46 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

From my experience in the addiction  recovery program, I might say there is total, obvious, and inevitable destruction there, too. I have been sitting in a courtroom where narcissism, emotional abuse, and pornography led to gruesome murders of children and suicide. Hard to get any worse than that. IMO, selfishness takes many forms.

I mentioned a teacher colleague in a same-sex marriage who had a boy from a donor father. Her partner then had a girl from a different donor. I know it’s an unusual situation, but one that may become more common. Would their children be included in those societal concerns? Are they brother and sister?

If the parents are married, why wouldn't they be viewed as brother and sister?

Edited March 2, 2020 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

If the parents are married, why wouldn't they be viewed as brother and sister?

Viewed?

Married, but different mothers with different fathers. No common DNA. Half? Step? Adopted? Biological? If the parents were to divorce, would they still be siblings? ....unless maybe we say they are siblings (brother and sister) because they live in the same house? I don’t know the answers. It’s a brave new world. 

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Viewed?

Married, but different mothers with different fathers. No common DNA. Half? Step? Adopted? Biological? If the parents were to divorce, would they still be siblings? ....unless maybe we say they are siblings (brother and sister) because they live in the same house? I don’t know the answers. It’s a brave new world. 

What does it say on the birth certificate?  Surrogacy or sperm donors have been around a long time.  I assume such concerns have already been dealt with for those situations. Sperm donors do not have legal standing as a parent. If the spouse acknowledges parenthood by being on the birth certificate or contributes to raising the child, courts have ruled legally parent even if not bioparent.  "Step" seems to fit if a spouse does not accept legal parenthood, as in stepmother:

Quote

a woman who is married to the father of a child but is not the biological mother

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/stepmother

Edited March 2, 2020 by Calm

[The Nehor]

15 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Those opposing the legalization and legitimization of gay marriage made some of those same arguments.

Only if you generalize down to “bad and causing harm. By that standard the same arguments are used against gambling and the comparison is pretty useless.
 

I pity you if you genuinely cannot see a huge difference between your brother dating guys and your brother dating our dad or other brother. The predatory nature is amplified and the betrayal of the family structure is much more damaging. It is the difference in damage between opting out of coming to Thanksgiving and blowing up the house it is held at while everyone is eating.

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Only if you generalize down to “bad and causing harm. By that standard the same arguments are used against gambling and the comparison is pretty useless.
 

I pity you if you genuinely cannot see a huge difference between your brother dating guys and your brother dating our dad or other brother. The predatory nature is amplified and the betrayal of the family structure is much more damaging. It is the difference in damage between opting out of coming to Thanksgiving and blowing up the house it is held at while everyone is eating.

Pity me all you want, anonymous-guy-on-message-board.  Meanwhile, I will be absolutely sure to accord your pity precisely the weight I believe it is due (that is to say, certainly, I will accord it the same weight I usually accord pity from anonymous-guys-on-message-boards generally).  While you may be right that incest is inherently worse because it always involves family members, and while the situation in which one gay spouse abandons his or her opposite-sex spouse and children to take up with a gay spouse or lover, certainly is less common, relatively speaking, it is not unheard of, and the only reason why you, apparently, think that's not so bad is because it hasn't happened to you.  I would submit that if it had happened to you, you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss its emotional ramifications.

[esodije]

As with most things in life, the topic of incest comes down to a Weird Al song:

Tell me
How was I supposed to know we were both related?
Believe me, if I knew she was my cousin we never would have dated
What to do now? Should I go ahead and propose
And get hitched and have kids with eleven toes
And move to Alabama where that kind of thing is tolerated?

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Pity me all you want, anonymous-guy-on-message-board.  Meanwhile, I will be absolutely sure to accord your pity precisely the weight I believe it is due (that is to say, certainly, I will accord it the same weight I usually accord pity from anonymous-guys-on-message-boards generally).  While you may be right that incest is inherently worse because it always involves family members, and while the situation in which one gay spouse abandons his or her opposite-sex spouse and children to take up with a gay spouse or lover, certainly is less common, relatively speaking, it is not unheard of, and the only reason why you, apparently, think that's not so bad is because it hasn't happened to you.  I would submit that if it had happened to you, you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss its emotional ramifications.

I did not dismiss it nor did I say it was “not so bad”. Saying thing A is more damaging than Thing B does not make Thing B safe.

I feel I am being semi-trolled though. This board seems incapable of discussing much of anything without trying to tie it to same sex marriage in some way. The coy attempts to make it equivalent to incest are tiresome.

[ttribe]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I did not dismiss it nor did I say it was “not so bad”. Saying thing A is more damaging than Thing B does not make Thing B safe.

I feel I am being semi-trolled though. This board seems incapable of discussing much of anything without trying to tie it to same sex marriage in some way. The coy attempts to make it equivalent to incest are tiresome.

The presence of your sugar glider in your avatar is a constant reminder that the legalization of same-sex marriage is a foretold plague preceding the apocalypse.  Change my mind.

[Kenngo1969]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

... I feel I am being semi-trolled though. This board seems incapable of discussing much of anything without trying to tie it to same sex marriage in some way. The coy attempts to make it equivalent to incest are tiresome.

I didn't say that gay marriage is equivalent to incest, anonymous-guy-on-message-board.  In fact, I specifically pointed out some differences between them in my previous post.  Your reading comprehension seems wanting.  And I don't troll.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Kenngo1969

[Bernard Gui]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

What does it say on the birth certificate?  Surrogacy or sperm donors have been around a long time.  I assume such concerns have already been dealt with for those situations. Sperm donors do not have legal standing as a parent. If the spouse acknowledges parenthood by being on the birth certificate or contributes to raising the child, courts have ruled legally parent even if not bioparent.  "Step" seems to fit if a spouse does not accept legal parenthood, as in stepmother:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/stepmother

It’s very confusing. I hope the kids can sort it out.

This is a very common rule in this chart about incest laws...

Quote

Brother and sister of the whole blood or of the half blood. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_incest_in_the_United_States

Consanguinity is also frequently cited. If I understand correctly, in the situation I described the children could marry in some states. I could be wrong.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[The Nehor]

44 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I didn't say that gay marriage is equivalent to incest, anonymous-guy-on-message-board.  In fact, I specifically pointed out some differences between them in my previous post.  Your reading comprehension seems wanting.  And I don't troll.

I was speaking generally with that comment and not to you specifically. Admittedly saying that the arguments I have put forward against incest equally apply to same sex marriage (which is laughable) suggests that you sympathize with that equivalency even if you did not outright say it.

What would I know though? I am just an anonymous-person-of-indeterminate-gender-and-sanity-currently-eating-popcorn-and-working-on-taxes-and-stopped-by-this-message-board-out-of-boredom.

 

Seriously though is that designation meant to be insulting or demeaning and imply that if I posted my long-form birth certificate and social security card my views would be treated with more gravitas and consideration? If so that is kind of sad.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

The presence of your sugar glider in your avatar is a constant reminder that the legalization of same-sex marriage is a foretold plague preceding the apocalypse.  Change my mind.

When they were mating last night the other boy dropped from above and landed on the mounting male. It looked like a threesome for a second which suggest same sex attraction. So basically you are probably right. Should I send the colony to conversion therapy to get them sorted out?

[Kenngo1969]

53 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

... Seriously though is that designation meant to be insulting or demeaning and imply that if I posted my long-form birth certificate and social security card my views would be treated with more gravitas and consideration? If so that is kind of sad.

No more insulting or demeaning than your condescending faux pity because I allegedly so tragically lack your level of alleged genius, anonymous-boy-on-message-board.  (Or do you seriously think your crap smells like roses while it's only everyone else's that smells like the real thing?)

Edited March 3, 2020 by Kenngo1969

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

When they were mating last night the other boy dropped from above and landed on the mounting male. It looked like a threesome for a second which suggest same sex attraction. So basically you are probably right. Should I send the colony to conversion therapy to get them sorted out?

Indeed.  Now we can expand the discussion from simply debating same-sex marriage to include conversion therapy, in true MDD fashion.  Should be able to return to the incest issue, with a direct link to same-sex marriage, within two degrees of discussion topics.  All MDD topics eventually devolve into a same-sex marriage debate. QED.

[The Nehor]

21 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

No more insulting or demeaning than your condescending faux pity because I allegedly so tragically lack your level of alleged genius, anonymous-boy-on-message-board.  (Or do you seriously think your crap smells like roses while it's only everyone else's that smells like the real thing?)

I would not argue with that. My statement is that it was a failure at being insulting or demeaning at all so clearly it is not more insulting and demeaning than anything else. Glad we have come to an agreement.

I guess my diet of rose petals isn't working.  I am a little disturbed that you are interested in the odor but you do you I guess.

[The Nehor]

20 hours ago, ttribe said:

Indeed.  Now we can expand the discussion from simply debating same-sex marriage to include conversion therapy, in true MDD fashion.  Should be able to return to the incest issue, with a direct link to same-sex marriage, within two degrees of discussion topics.  All MDD topics eventually devolve into a same-sex marriage debate. QED.

I also failed to mention that my two male sugar gliders are brothers from the same litter so basically twins so we can jump right back into incest and save time.

[Skylla]

Thread closed.

Skylla