InCognitus Posted February 2, 2020 Posted February 2, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, teddyaware said: Then please explain why D&C 138 testifies that the wicked in the spirit prison, including those who were condemned and sent there because they rejected the redemptive preaching of the prophets while in the flesh, such as the rebellious people of Noah’s day, are taught faith in Christ, repentance from sin, vicarious water baptism for the remission of sins and the bestowal of the gift of the Holy Ghost by missionaries who are sent from paradise to the spirit prison to minister to those dwelling in darkness who had previously rejected the gospel message? Are you suggesting such people are taught about the first principles and ordinances of the gospel even though those principles and ordinances don’t apply to them? Why teach people about a higher way of being if they have forever lost the opportunity to walk in that higher way of being? Perhaps it’s to teach them a good lesson by rubbing their faces in their own failure? I'm open to try to understand it your way, but as I tried to explain in my post to you above, the language of Section 138:33-35 is about them receiving a knowledge of those principles in order to qualify them for equal judgement, and it doesn't specifically say anything about their required acceptance of those principles. They were taught all the "principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh" (verse 34). It's like reading them their rights and asking if they understand them, so that they can be judged properly. The Gospel Topic on "Baptisms for the Dead" says: "By performing proxy baptisms in behalf of those who have died, Church members offer these blessings to deceased ancestors. Individuals can then choose to accept or reject what has been done in their behalf." The article continues, "Some people have misunderstood that when baptisms for the dead are performed, deceased persons are baptized into the Church against their will. This is not the case. Each individual has agency, or the right to choose. The validity of a baptism for the dead depends on the deceased person accepting it and choosing to accept and follow the Savior while residing in the spirit world." I think it's quite possible for a person to reject baptism and still acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, since they have the agency to choose how they want to live their life here or in the eternities. Edited February 2, 2020 by InCognitus 1
Sunslight Posted February 2, 2020 Author Posted February 2, 2020 2 hours ago, InCognitus said: I'm not finding anything in Section 138 that even hints at such a thing. And what Joseph Smith taught in the quote I provided above indicates otherwise. If you are implying that to be "saved" in any of the kingdoms requires the Mark 16:16 formula (as found in many places in the scriptures), then I would point out that there are many aspects to the word "saved" (resurrection made possible through the atonement of Jesus Christ "saves" us from death [hell] unconditionally, for example), and the statement from Joseph Smith that I quoted above seems to contradict your view and it post-dates the Mark 16:16 formula. So that would not be the way that Joseph Smith understood it. And section 138 dates after Joseph Smith. Why are the wicked and disobedient who rejected the gospel in mortality being taught the same gospel of repentance and baptism for the remission of sins in hell? So that through obedience to the gospel they can be saved. That is exactly what section 138 teaches. According to mainstream LDS theology we aren't speaking of Celestial grade beings here. "Saved" in gospel terms means to be saved from hell. Section 138 teaches the doctrine of repentance and baptism that is absolutely required to be redeemed from the chains of hell.
Sunslight Posted February 2, 2020 Author Posted February 2, 2020 1 hour ago, InCognitus said: I'm open to try to understand it your way, but as I tried to explain in my post to you above, the language of Section 138:33-35 is about them receiving a knowledge of those principles in order to qualify them for equal judgement, and it doesn't specifically say anything about their required acceptance of those principles. They were taught all the "principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh" (verse 34). It's like reading them their rights and asking if they understand them, so that they can be judged properly. They aren't only receiving the gospel as knowledge they are actually living it. To live as God in the spirit means to live righteously, following God. Read on in the section. 58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, 59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation
Calm Posted February 2, 2020 Posted February 2, 2020 15 minutes ago, Sunslight said: Why are the wicked and disobedient who rejected the gospel in mortality being taught the same gospel of repentance and baptism for the remission of sins in hell? Perhaps to give them a fair chance of understanding and then accepting or rejecting it. Between mortal inability to understand basic communication face to face much of the time (it is a wonder to me we have progressed as much as we have) and the restrictions that life circumstances place on full understanding of the gospel, I don’t believe anyone has had a real chance at accepting and rejecting the Gospel save through leaps of faith and many are set up not to have faith. For example, my daughter has medical conditions that are clear evidence she can’t trust her body and feelings to be accurate——blood sugars can cause depression when she is having a great time otherwise——so she dismisses any feelings or physical states as reliable evidence and thus believes she has never experienced the Spirit, probably couldn’t identify it if she did through all the confusing signals her body sends her. I have gone years myself without experiencing the Spirit due to a medical condition. Within a few days of its removal, the Spirit was back. If the medical condition had been permanent, even if missionaries taught me extensively and even if I practiced living the gospel, I would never be able to access the Spirit for confirmation this was more than just something men had come up with. Seeing such minor things destroy opportunities to experience the Spirit in myself and many around me from what they have described, I am of the opinion very few in mortal have actually had their first opportunity to truly learn what the gospel is. 1
teddyaware Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 (edited) On 2/2/2020 at 1:01 AM, InCognitus said: I'm open to try to understand it your way, but as I tried to explain in my post to you above, the language of Section 138:33-35 is about them receiving a knowledge of those principles in order to qualify them for equal judgement, and it doesn't specifically say anything about their required acceptance of those principles. They were taught all the "principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh" (verse 34). It's like reading them their rights and asking if they understand them, so that they can be judged properly. The Gospel Topic on "Baptisms for the Dead" says: "By performing proxy baptisms in behalf of those who have died, Church members offer these blessings to deceased ancestors. Individuals can then choose to accept or reject what has been done in their behalf." The article continues, "Some people have misunderstood that when baptisms for the dead are performed, deceased persons are baptized into the Church against their will. This is not the case. Each individual has agency, or the right to choose. The validity of a baptism for the dead depends on the deceased person accepting it and choosing to accept and follow the Savior while residing in the spirit world." I think it's quite possible for a person to reject baptism and still acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, since they have the agency to choose how they want to live their life here or in the eternities. Doctrine and Covenants 132 repudiates your novel interpretation and couldn’t possibly make the requirements for the salvation of the formerly wicked and rebellious any clearer: 57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the of the dead. 58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, 59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions (suffered the dire spiritual consequences of their sinfulness until they are sufficiently remorseful and repentant), and are washed clean (an obvious allusion to baptism by water for the remission of sins) shall receive a reward according to their works (numbered among the works that will account these souls worthy of redemption will be their obedience to the ordinances of the house of God), for they are heirs of salvation. D&C 138 is a glorious enlargement beyond the teachings pertaining to the plan of salvation set forth in D&C 76. I acknowledge that the obvious implications of the plain and precious treasures of knowledge revealed in Section 138 may cause some to enter into a state of cognitive dissonance, but once they get beyond the initial shock they will be filled with awe and wonder at the marvelous love and mercy of God. But like the Savior has said, sometimes great truths are hiding in plain sight. I find this to be especially true when it comes to the ordinances of the house of God. Edited February 27, 2020 by teddyaware
Ahab Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 (edited) On 2/1/2020 at 10:01 PM, InCognitus said: I'm open to try to understand it your way, but as I tried to explain in my post to you above, the language of Section 138:33-35 is about them receiving a knowledge of those principles in order to qualify them for equal judgement, and it doesn't specifically say anything about their required acceptance of those principles. They were taught all the "principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh" (verse 34). It's like reading them their rights and asking if they understand them, so that they can be judged properly. The Gospel Topic on "Baptisms for the Dead" says: "By performing proxy baptisms in behalf of those who have died, Church members offer these blessings to deceased ancestors. Individuals can then choose to accept or reject what has been done in their behalf." The article continues, "Some people have misunderstood that when baptisms for the dead are performed, deceased persons are baptized into the Church against their will. This is not the case. Each individual has agency, or the right to choose. The validity of a baptism for the dead depends on the deceased person accepting it and choosing to accept and follow the Savior while residing in the spirit world." I think it's quite possible for a person to reject baptism and still acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, since they have the agency to choose how they want to live their life here or in the eternities. That is the right way to think about it, I think. Everyone will be taught what they need to know and do to be saved and it will be up to each person to do what is necessary to receive salvation. Someone who doesn't want to be saved won't be saved against their own will. Everyone who had a mortal body will still be resurrected, though, so everyone will live forever and will know what they missed out on because they will know what they rejected while seeing other people come and visit them who received more glory than they did. Not that they'll fully realize what they missed out on, but they'll at least have the concepts in their mind and over the course of eternity they will keep seeing more and more of the same things going on and will wonder about what everyone else is up to. Edited February 27, 2020 by Ahab
InCognitus Posted March 3, 2020 Posted March 3, 2020 (edited) On 2/26/2020 at 8:57 PM, teddyaware said: Doctrine and Covenants 132 repudiates your novel interpretation and couldn’t possibly make the requirements for the salvation of the formerly wicked and rebellious any clearer: 57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the of the dead. 58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, 59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions (suffered the dire spiritual consequences of their sinfulness until they are sufficiently remorseful and repentant), and are washed clean (an obvious allusion to baptism by water for the remission of sins) shall receive a reward according to their works (numbered among the works that will account these souls worthy of redemption will be their obedience to the ordinances of the house of God), for they are heirs of salvation. D&C 138 is a glorious enlargement beyond the teachings pertaining to the plan of salvation set forth in D&C 76. I acknowledge that the obvious implications of the plain and precious treasures of knowledge revealed in Section 138 may cause some to enter into a state of cognitive dissonance, but once they get beyond the initial shock they will be filled with awe and wonder at the marvelous love and mercy of God. But like the Savior has said, sometimes great truths are hiding in plain sight. I find this to be especially true when it comes to the ordinances of the house of God. As I said before, I am still trying to figure this out too, and my purpose is not to refute you, but to understand what is being taught based on the evidence as I see it. I had never previously considered the possibility that Joseph Smith could be wrong when he said that a man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit. I have always considered that statement to be true and saying that baptism is required for the celestial kingdom, but not for the telestial or terrestrial. And the same can be said for the quote I gave from Joseph Fielding Smith. That statement may be even more important to this discussion, since Section 138 seems to be the primary source for your view. Joseph Fielding Smith is the son of Joseph F. Smith, and he personally conversed with his father on the doctrines taught in the revelation in Section 138 before his father died, and he recorded the words of the revelation as dictated by his father personally (see the history on this vision in Robert L. Millet’s article, The Vision of the Redemption of the Dead (D&C 138), found here https://rsc.byu.edu/sperry-symposium-classics-doctrine-covenants/vision-redemption-dead-dc-138-0) It appears to me that Joseph Fielding Smith is saying the exact same thing that Joseph Smith said, even with a full understanding of the contents and meaning of his father’s vision (Section 138). There is a difference in the way that Joseph Fielding Smith understood that vision, and the way that you (and others) apparently understand that vision. I can see how you are reading it now, but I know for certain that your way isn’t the only way to understand it, and it isn’t the way I’ve ever understood it before. A key passage that explains how I view Section 138 is verse 32, where it describes the two distinct groups of people who are taught the gospel: "Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or [those] in transgression, having rejected the prophets." Note that both of these groups have sins from the lives they lived while in mortality, but there is a huge difference in the opportunities that were presented to them and the choices they were given to rectify the problem. The first group didn’t have a knowledge of the truth, they didn’t have an opportunity to hear the gospel message in this life. But the second group is quite the opposite. We're all familiar with the harsh words of Amulek in Alma 34:31–38 about the consequences of procrastinating the day of our repentance. The people who know the truth but don't repent in this life won't have a chance for the same degree of salvation as those who do repent in this life. So, for all the reasons explained above, I see 138:58-59 describing the people in the first group: those who have the opportunity to repent and obtain the celestial kingdom. Those in the second group don’t have that opportunity. Edited March 3, 2020 by InCognitus 1
Ahab Posted March 3, 2020 Posted March 3, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, InCognitus said: As I said before, I am still trying to figure this out too, and my purpose is not to refute you, but to understand what is being taught based on the evidence as I see it. I had never previously considered the possibility that Joseph Smith could be wrong when he said that a man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit. I have always considered that statement to be true and saying that baptism is required for the celestial kingdom, but not for the telestial or terrestrial. And the same can be said for the quote I gave from Joseph Fielding Smith. That statement may be even more important to this discussion, since Section 138 seems to be the primary source for your view. Joseph Fielding Smith is the son of Joseph F. Smith, and he personally conversed with his father on the doctrines taught in the revelation in Section 138 before his father died, and he recorded the words of the revelation as dictated by his father personally (see the history on this vision in Robert L. Millet’s article, The Vision of the Redemption of the Dead (D&C 138), found here https://rsc.byu.edu/sperry-symposium-classics-doctrine-covenants/vision-redemption-dead-dc-138-0) It appears to me that Joseph Fielding Smith is saying the exact same thing that Joseph Smith said, even with a full understanding of the contents and meaning of his father’s vision (Section 138). There is a difference in the way that Joseph Fielding Smith understood that vision, and the way that you (and others) apparently understand that vision. I can see how you are reading it now, but I know for certain that your way isn’t the only way to understand it, and it isn’t the way I’ve ever understood it before. A key passage that explains how I view Section 138 is verse 32, where it describes the two distinct groups of people who are taught the gospel: "Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or [those] in transgression, having rejected the prophets." Note that both of these groups have sins from the lives they lived while in mortality, but there is a huge difference in the opportunities that were presented to them and the choices they were given to rectify the problem. The first group didn’t have a knowledge of the truth, they didn’t have an opportunity to hear the gospel message in this life. But the second group is quite the opposite. We're all familiar with the harsh words of Amulek in Alma 34:31–38 about the consequences of procrastinating the day of our repentance. The people who know the truth but don't repent in this life won't have a chance for the same degree of salvation as those who do repent in this life. So, for all the reasons explained above, I see 138:58-59 describing the people in the first group: those who have the opportunity to repent and obtain the celestial kingdom. Those in the second group don’t have that opportunity. I consider our mortal probation to begin when we are born on this earth and end when we are no longer mortal, which will be when we are resurrected. Some say mortality ends at death and thus our mortal probation ends at death, but I don't see it that way. But I could be wrong. Anyway, I think we'll have until the end of our mortal probation to do all we can do before we are judged and receive a reward based on our works and the atonement of Jesus Christ. Our reward isn't totally based on the atonement alone otherwise everyone would be saved and receive the same reward, because the atonement was perfect and covers everything, but our works are also a factor in the reward our Lord will give us so what we do is also very important. Edited March 3, 2020 by Ahab 1
teddyaware Posted March 4, 2020 Posted March 4, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Ahab said: I consider our mortal probation to begin when we are born on this earth and end when we are no longer mortal, which will be when we are resurrected. Some say mortality ends at death and thus our mortal probation ends at death, but I don't see it that way. But I could be wrong. Anyway, I think we'll have until the end of our mortal probation to do all we can do before we are judged and receive a reward based on our works and the atonement of Jesus Christ. Our reward isn't totally based on the atonement alone otherwise everyone would be saved and receive the same reward, because the atonement was perfect and covers everything, but our works are also a factor in the reward our Lord will give us so what we do is also very important. “The veil of forgetfulness of the first estate apparently will not be suddenly, automatically, and totally removed at the time of our temporal death. This veil, a condition of our entire second estate, is associated with and is part of our time of mortal trial, testing, proving, and overcoming by faith-- and thus will continue in some key respects into the spirit world.” (The Promise of Discipleship, p. 111) Edited March 4, 2020 by teddyaware 1
teddyaware Posted March 4, 2020 Posted March 4, 2020 (edited) 23 hours ago, InCognitus said: As I said before, I am still trying to figure this out too, and my purpose is not to refute you, but to understand what is being taught based on the evidence as I see it. I had never previously considered the possibility that Joseph Smith could be wrong when he said that a man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit. I have always considered that statement to be true and saying that baptism is required for the celestial kingdom, but not for the telestial or terrestrial. And the same can be said for the quote I gave from Joseph Fielding Smith. That statement may be even more important to this discussion, since Section 138 seems to be the primary source for your view. Joseph Fielding Smith is the son of Joseph F. Smith, and he personally conversed with his father on the doctrines taught in the revelation in Section 138 before his father died, and he recorded the words of the revelation as dictated by his father personally (see the history on this vision in Robert L. Millet’s article, The Vision of the Redemption of the Dead (D&C 138), found here https://rsc.byu.edu/sperry-symposium-classics-doctrine-covenants/vision-redemption-dead-dc-138-0) It appears to me that Joseph Fielding Smith is saying the exact same thing that Joseph Smith said, even with a full understanding of the contents and meaning of his father’s vision (Section 138). There is a difference in the way that Joseph Fielding Smith understood that vision, and the way that you (and others) apparently understand that vision. I can see how you are reading it now, but I know for certain that your way isn’t the only way to understand it, and it isn’t the way I’ve ever understood it before. A key passage that explains how I view Section 138 is verse 32, where it describes the two distinct groups of people who are taught the gospel: "Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or [those] in transgression, having rejected the prophets." Note that both of these groups have sins from the lives they lived while in mortality, but there is a huge difference in the opportunities that were presented to them and the choices they were given to rectify the problem. The first group didn’t have a knowledge of the truth, they didn’t have an opportunity to hear the gospel message in this life. But the second group is quite the opposite. We're all familiar with the harsh words of Amulek in Alma 34:31–38 about the consequences of procrastinating the day of our repentance. The people who know the truth but don't repent in this life won't have a chance for the same degree of salvation as those who do repent in this life. So, for all the reasons explained above, I see 138:58-59 describing the people in the first group: those who have the opportunity to repent and obtain the celestial kingdom. Those in the second group don’t have that opportunity. Please note that Section 138 was not added to our canon of scripture until April 3, 1976, nearly a century and a half after the prophet Joseph Smith made the statement you quote. Can you acknowledge that just as Doctrine and Covenants Section 76 seemed to contradict the earlier “one heaven, one hell” paradigm of the plan of salvation that’s presented in the Book of Mormon (by the disclosure of new and unexpected doctrinal truths that. understandably, caused shock, consternation and incredulity among some of the early members of the restored Church), so, too, D&C 138 enlarges upon and beautifully clarifies the wonderful truths revealed fourteen decades earlier in Section 76? This process of ever unfolding continuous revelation is well understood by the members of the Church as being the way the Lord discloses the mysteries of his kingdom to his saints “line upon line, precept upon precept.” After reading and closely studying Joseph F Smith’s vision of the redemption of the dead prior to its canonization in 1976, I clearly recall thinking to myself that if it were ever canonized as scripture it would be a real game changer, generating another major doctrinal paradigm shift. But if you can’t accept what Section 138 clearly and unambiguously teaches because you’re determined to square it with things that were taught many years prior to 138 being made holy scripture, that’s all well and good for you’re likely in the company of about 99.9 percent of the faithful members of the Church. But do understand this, it’s still widely held by many members of the Church and critics alike that D&C 76 most definitely cannot be made to harmonize with the version of the plan of salvation that’s taught in the Book of Mormon. In fact, the supposed fact that the Book of Mormon and Section 76 cannot be made to harmonize is considered one of the a major LDS doctrinal contradictions that is said to cast a broad, dark shadow of doubt on the legitimacy of the teachings of the Church. But also understand this, that once one accepts D&C 138’s plainly stated testimony that even the inheritors of the lower mansions of heavenly glory need to be baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost before they can be redeemed from the imprisonment of sin, then an effectual door of powerful reason opens that makes it possible to easily and perfectly harmonize the Book of Mormon’s presentation of the plan of salvation with the one found in D&C 76. So what’s more important, squaring D&C 138 with statements that are not even in the scriptures, or is it more important to find a way to square the Book of Mormon’s plan of salvation with D&C sections 76, 88, 128, and 138? Edited March 4, 2020 by teddyaware 1
InCognitus Posted March 4, 2020 Posted March 4, 2020 10 hours ago, Ahab said: I consider our mortal probation to begin when we are born on this earth and end when we are no longer mortal, which will be when we are resurrected. Some say mortality ends at death and thus our mortal probation ends at death, but I don't see it that way. But I could be wrong. Anyway, I think we'll have until the end of our mortal probation to do all we can do before we are judged and receive a reward based on our works and the atonement of Jesus Christ. Our reward isn't totally based on the atonement alone otherwise everyone would be saved and receive the same reward, because the atonement was perfect and covers everything, but our works are also a factor in the reward our Lord will give us so what we do is also very important. I agree with you that for most people, the probationary period doesn't end at death, but continues until the resurrection. And even though repentance may still possible in the spirit world, the works we do here seem to count more toward how we are judged, since this is the time when we are supposed to be overcoming the "lust of the flesh". Amulek says "this life is the day for men to perform their labor" (Alma 34:32). Those in the spirit world are "judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6, D&C 88:99, D&C 138:10) But the probationary period seems to be cut short at death, or maybe even sooner, for those who reject the prophets in this life. Amulek also says that those who procrastinate the day of their repentance "even until death" receive their "final state" with the wicked (Alma 34:35). And Samuel the Lamanite had similar words for the Nephites who rejected the prophets: "But behold, your days of probation are past; ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head." (Helaman 13:38)
InCognitus Posted March 4, 2020 Posted March 4, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, teddyaware said: Please note that Section 138 was not added to our canon of scripture until April 3, 1976, nearly a century and a half after the prophet Joseph Smith made the statement you quote. Can you acknowledge that just as Doctrine and Covenants Section 76 seemed to contradict the earlier “one heaven, one hell” paradigm of the plan of salvation that’s presented in the Book of Mormon (by the disclosure of new and unexpected doctrinal truths that. understandably, caused shock, consternation and incredulity among some of the early members of the restored Church), so, too, D&C 138 enlarges upon and beautifully clarifies the wonderful truths revealed fourteen decades earlier in Section 76? This process of ever unfolding continuous revelation is well understood by the members of the Church as being the way the Lord discloses the mysteries of his kingdom to his saints “line upon line, precept upon precept.” After reading and closely studying Joseph F Smith’s vision of the redemption of the dead prior to its canonization in 1976, I clearly recall thinking to myself that if it were ever canonized as scripture it would be a real game changer, generating another major doctrinal paradigm shift. But if you can’t accept what Section 138 clearly and unambiguously teaches because you’re determined to square it with things that were taught many years prior to 138 being made holy scripture, that’s all well and good for you’re likely in the company of about 99.9 percent of the faithful members of the Church. But do understand this, it’s still widely held by many members of the Church and critics alike that D&C 76 most definitely cannot be made to harmonize with the version of the plan of salvation that’s taught in the Book of Mormon. In fact, the supposed fact that the Book of Mormon and Section 76 cannot be made to harmonize is considered one of the a major LDS doctrinal contradictions that is said to cast a broad, dark shadow of doubt on the legitimacy of the teachings of the Church. But also understand this, that once one accepts D&C 138’s plainly stated testimony that even the inheritors of the lower mansions of heavenly glory need to be baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost before they can be redeemed from the imprisonment of sin, then an effectual door of powerful reason opens that makes it possible to easily and perfectly harmonize the Book of Mormon’s presentation of the plan of salvation with the one found in D&C 76. So what’s more important, squaring D&C 138 with statements that are not even in the scriptures, or is it more important to find a way to square the Book of Mormon’s plan of salvation with D&C sections 76, 88, 128, and 138? I don't think Section 138 "clearly and unambiguously teaches" what you think it teaches. If that were true, then why did Joseph Fielding Smith, who had conversations with his father about the meaning of his vision (Section 138) and recorded it for him before he died, and taught its doctrines through the years, say essentially the same thing as the Prophet Joseph Smith about baptism as a requirement for the celestial kingdom alone? Maybe you're still going to respond to that part of what I said (since you just posted this a few minutes ago), but that's not something you can dismiss as a situation of more light and knowledge given later that corrects prior teachings, because Joseph Fielding Smith was intimately familiar with the source and content of the Section 138 vision. Maybe I need to post that again. Here it is: Quote Who, among Latter-day Saints, is seeking a place in the telestial kingdom? Who, among the Latter-day Saints, is seeking a place in the terrestrial kingdom? With those kingdoms we should want nothing to do; it is not the intention of the man who is baptized into the Church, or ought not to be, to so live that he will not find a place in the celestial kingdom of God; for baptism, itself, is the way into that kingdom. Baptism is of two-fold nature; primarily for the remission of sins, and then, entrance into the kingdom of God, not the telestial kingdom, not into the terrestrial kingdom, but entrance into the celestial kingdom, where God dwells. That is what baptism is for; that is what the gift of the Holy Ghost, by the laying on of hands, is for—to prepare us that we may, through obedience, continue on and on, keeping the commandments of the Lord, until we shall receive the fulness in the celestial kingdom. (In Conference Report, Apr. 1922, 60–61, quoted in Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Fielding Smith, Chapter 13 on Baptism) Edit: I just did some checking, and Joseph Fielding Smith states this much plainer and clearer in Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 2: Quote GOSPEL ORDINANCES FOR CELESTIAL KINGDOM ONLY. Will those who enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms have to have the ordinance of baptism? No! Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. The Lord made this clear to Nicodemus. We are not preaching a salvation for the inhabitants of the terrestrial or the telestial kingdoms. All of the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and what the Lord will require by way of ordinances, if any, in the other kingdoms he has not revealed.It seems to me to be so clear that the ordinances of the gospel are for those who are entitled to enter the celestial kingdom, based on obedience to the principles of the gospel, that there should be no question about it.BAPTISM FOR CELESTIAL KINGDOM ONLY. If the Lord intended baptism and other ordinances for everyone, why did he say, "He that believeth not shall be damned"? Why should he say what he has said of those who enter the telestial kingdom: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end"? (Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.329) And also: Quote BAPTISM SAVES MEN FROM LOWER KINGDOMS. The First Presidency have said in answer to a similar question: "We know of no ordinances pertaining to the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom. All of the ordinances of the gospel are given for the salvation of men in the celestial kingdom and pertain unto that kingdom." The Lord has said positively that those who reject the gospel shall be "damned." Baptism and obedience are to save them from damnation. If we are to be baptized for all who are dead without regard to the glory which they receive, then logically we must say that they are not to be damned, and such a thing is a contradiction of the word of the Lord. This doctrine, that baptism is to be required of all men, is doing a great deal of harm in that it tends to encourage men in the procrastination of their repentance and holds out to them the false hope that they shall eventually, notwithstanding their unfaithfulness and disobedience, receive the blessings of the celestial kingdom of God. The doctrine is entirely foreign to the gospel plan which has been given to men to prepare them for celestial glory. (Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.330-331) Again, this is all from the son of Joseph F. Smith, after he had full first hand knowledge and understanding of Section 138 as dictated from his father, and he obviously doesn't seem to think Section 138 is saying what you think it unambiguously says. What do you think? Edited March 4, 2020 by InCognitus
Ahab Posted March 4, 2020 Posted March 4, 2020 11 hours ago, teddyaware said: Please note that Section 138 was not added to our canon of scripture until April 3, 1976, nearly a century and a half after the prophet Joseph Smith made the statement you quote. Can you acknowledge that just as Doctrine and Covenants Section 76 seemed to contradict the earlier “one heaven, one hell” paradigm of the plan of salvation that’s presented in the Book of Mormon (by the disclosure of new and unexpected doctrinal truths that. understandably, caused shock, consternation and incredulity among some of the early members of the restored Church), so, too, D&C 138 enlarges upon and beautifully clarifies the wonderful truths revealed fourteen decades earlier in Section 76? This process of ever unfolding continuous revelation is well understood by the members of the Church as being the way the Lord discloses the mysteries of his kingdom to his saints “line upon line, precept upon precept.” After reading and closely studying Joseph F Smith’s vision of the redemption of the dead prior to its canonization in 1976, I clearly recall thinking to myself that if it were ever canonized as scripture it would be a real game changer, generating another major doctrinal paradigm shift. But if you can’t accept what Section 138 clearly and unambiguously teaches because you’re determined to square it with things that were taught many years prior to 138 being made holy scripture, that’s all well and good for you’re likely in the company of about 99.9 percent of the faithful members of the Church. But do understand this, it’s still widely held by many members of the Church and critics alike that D&C 76 most definitely cannot be made to harmonize with the version of the plan of salvation that’s taught in the Book of Mormon. In fact, the supposed fact that the Book of Mormon and Section 76 cannot be made to harmonize is considered one of the a major LDS doctrinal contradictions that is said to cast a broad, dark shadow of doubt on the legitimacy of the teachings of the Church. But also understand this, that once one accepts D&C 138’s plainly stated testimony that even the inheritors of the lower mansions of heavenly glory need to be baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost before they can be redeemed from the imprisonment of sin, then an effectual door of powerful reason opens that makes it possible to easily and perfectly harmonize the Book of Mormon’s presentation of the plan of salvation with the one found in D&C 76. So what’s more important, squaring D&C 138 with statements that are not even in the scriptures, or is it more important to find a way to square the Book of Mormon’s plan of salvation with D&C sections 76, 88, 128, and 138? I just have to say Bravo! We are here to receive an education and some of us learn more than some others of us when limited to a particular period of time. Some are slow at learning some things so they need a longer period of time to learn what others learn before they do. The point I think is to learn what is most important and not get side-tracked so much by trivial issues. 1
Ahab Posted March 4, 2020 Posted March 4, 2020 11 hours ago, InCognitus said: I agree with you that for most people, the probationary period doesn't end at death, but continues until the resurrection. And even though repentance may still possible in the spirit world, the works we do here seem to count more toward how we are judged, since this is the time when we are supposed to be overcoming the "lust of the flesh". Amulek says "this life is the day for men to perform their labor" (Alma 34:32). Those in the spirit world are "judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6, D&C 88:99, D&C 138:10) Yes, that "life" referring to our mortal life, I believe, with us considering ourselves to be mortal until we are resurrected because we refer to our flesh rather than our spirit when we say we are either mortal or immortal. Our spirit is immortal now, you know, but still we say we are mortal. 11 hours ago, InCognitus said: But the probationary period seems to be cut short at death, or maybe even sooner, for those who reject the prophets in this life. Amulek also says that those who procrastinate the day of their repentance "even until death" receive their "final state" with the wicked (Alma 34:35). And Samuel the Lamanite had similar words for the Nephites who rejected the prophets: "But behold, your days of probation are past; ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head." (Helaman 13:38) Alma 34:35 - For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked. Alma was describing the final state of the wicked while saying those he were speaking to were destined for that unless they repented, not specifying how long they had to repent. The sooner the better but their death was not the deadline since as we know we will continue to try to teach those in spirit prison until they are resurrected. Samuel was talking about people seeing that they were cursed from the land of Zion and lamenting their choices. Best to read the entire chapter there, particularly noticing verse 32.
InCognitus Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 9 hours ago, Ahab said: Alma 34:35 - For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked. Alma was describing the final state of the wicked while saying those he were speaking to were destined for that unless they repented, not specifying how long they had to repent. The sooner the better but their death was not the deadline since as we know we will continue to try to teach those in spirit prison until they are resurrected. Except that Amulek does say that their deadline is at "death" for their specific circumstances, doesn't he? (See bolded portion above). Sure, there is the opportunity for repentance in spirit prison, but are you suggesting that a person can procrastinate the day of their repentance all the way until the day before the final judgement and in doing so they can still inherit the celestial kingdom of God? 9 hours ago, Ahab said: Samuel was talking about people seeing that they were cursed from the land of Zion and lamenting their choices. Best to read the entire chapter there, particularly noticing verse 32. Yes, that was sloppy on my part, good catch for the context. But Samuel is talking about the days of their mortal probation, is he not? Mormon makes reference to this exact same prophecy later on, and connects this limit to the point of their death: Quote 10 And it came to pass that the Nephites began to repent of their iniquity, and began to cry even as had been prophesied by Samuel the prophet; for behold no man could keep that which was his own, for the thieves, and the robbers, and the murderers, and the magic art, and the witchcraft which was in the land. 11 Thus there began to be a mourning and a lamentation in all the land because of these things, and more especially among the people of Nephi. 12 And it came to pass that when I, Mormon, saw their lamentation and their mourning and their sorrow before the Lord, my heart did begin to rejoice within me, knowing the mercies and the long-suffering of the Lord, therefore supposing that he would be merciful unto them that they would again become a righteous people. 13 But behold this my joy was vain, for their sorrowing was not unto repentance, because of the goodness of God; but it was rather the sorrowing of the damned, because the Lord would not always suffer them to take happiness in sin. 14 And they did not come unto Jesus with broken hearts and contrite spirits, but they did curse God, and wish to die. Nevertheless they would struggle with the sword for their lives. 15 And it came to pass that my sorrow did return unto me again, and I saw that the day of grace was passed with them, both temporally and spiritually; for I saw thousands of them hewn down in open rebellion against their God, and heaped up as dung upon the face of the land. And thus three hundred and forty and four years had passed away. (Mormon 2:10–15)
teddyaware Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, InCognitus said: Except that Amulek does say that their deadline is at "death" for their specific circumstances, doesn't he? (See bolded portion above). Sure, there is the opportunity for repentance in spirit prison, but are you suggesting that a person can procrastinate the day of their repentance all the way until the day before the final judgement and in doing so they can still inherit the celestial kingdom of God? Yes, that was sloppy on my part, good catch for the context. But Samuel is talking about the days of their mortal probation, is he not? Mormon makes reference to this exact same prophecy later on, and connects this limit to the point of their death: Here is the grand secret of the matter: At least insofar as the laws pertaining to God’s love, justice and mercy are concerned, the ‘death of the mortal body’ does not take place, at least in an official sense, until there are no longer consecrated temples where authorized proxies participate in vicarious temple ordinances in behalf of individuals who have passed on to the spirit world, with each proxy keenly aware of the fact that as he participates in the ordinances he is to think of himself as another human being who is physically present and alive in the flesh.. Edited March 5, 2020 by teddyaware
Sunslight Posted March 5, 2020 Author Posted March 5, 2020 Why is it that we get so hung up on the moment of death as the point of eternal judgment? Or, first or second chances? Like, if someone refuses to accept the gospel in mortality but then accept it fully in the spirit world we relegate them eternally to a lower kingdom. It's like we are more concerned about where they were rather than what they become. I somehow think our selfish competitiveness has been the sole factor in defining doctrine.
InCognitus Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Sunslight said: Why is it that we get so hung up on the moment of death as the point of eternal judgment? Or, first or second chances? Like, if someone refuses to accept the gospel in mortality but then accept it fully in the spirit world we relegate them eternally to a lower kingdom. It's like we are more concerned about where they were rather than what they become. I somehow think our selfish competitiveness has been the sole factor in defining doctrine. But I think this is the whole point. It is what people become, not where they've been that matters. How can anyone "become" anything if they don't have their heart in it and wait until the last possible moment to make the move? It's like what President Nelson taught in the April 2005 General Conference, in his talk Now is the Time to Prepare, what we have "become" is all that we take with us: Quote The Need to Prepare Now Yet many do procrastinate.2 A prophet warns us: “Ye cannot say … that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will … possess your body in that eternal world.”3 Another prophet adds, “He that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still.”4 Great is the knowledge that “whatever principle of intelligence we attain … in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.”5 From the Prophet Joseph Smith we also learn that “God has … a time … appointed … when He will bring all His subjects, who have obeyed His voice and kept His commandments, into His celestial rest. This rest6 is of such perfection and glory, that man has need of a preparation before he can, according to the laws of that kingdom, enter it and enjoy its blessings. … God has given certain laws to the human family, which, if observed, are sufficient to prepare them to inherit this rest.”7 Sister Nelson was so prepared! Our time of preparation is limited if we procrastinate! We are hurting ourselves by doing so. There is definitely more to understand about how the judgement works for the telestial, terrestrial, and celestial kingdoms. But those lower kingdoms exist for a reason. A person who has become something less than celestial in their behavior would be completely uncomfortable in the celestial kingdom.
Sunslight Posted March 5, 2020 Author Posted March 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, InCognitus said: But I think this is the whole point. It is what people become, not where they've been that matters. How can anyone "become" anything if they don't have their heart in it and wait until the last possible moment to make the move? It's like what President Nelson taught in the April 2005 General Conference, in his talk Now is the Time to Prepare, what we have "become" is all that we take with us: Our time of preparation is limited if we procrastinate! We are hurting ourselves by doing so. There is definitely more to understand about how the judgement works for the telestial, terrestrial, and celestial kingdoms. But those lower kingdoms exist for a reason. A person who has become something less than celestial in their behavior would be completely uncomfortable in the celestial kingdom. I think our limited and competitive natures like to think this way. I'm not sold this is how things really work. We all procrastinate in some degree or another. But we will be judged by who we have become rather than how many times we procrastinated. It's almost as if we are saying that for every time we procrastinate we get less and less glory.
InCognitus Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Sunslight said: I think our limited and competitive natures like to think this way. I'm not sold this is how things really work. We all procrastinate in some degree or another. But we will be judged by who we have become rather than how many times we procrastinated. It's almost as if we are saying that for every time we procrastinate we get less and less glory. That's certainly not what I am thinking. I have no idea how it will all turn out. I'm just trying to go by what the prophets and the scriptures have told us. Edited March 5, 2020 by InCognitus
Ahab Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, InCognitus said: Except that Amulek does say that their deadline is at "death" for their specific circumstances, doesn't he? (See bolded portion above). Sure, there is the opportunity for repentance in spirit prison, but are you suggesting that a person can procrastinate the day of their repentance all the way until the day before the final judgement and in doing so they can still inherit the celestial kingdom of God? Let's look at what he said, again: For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked. First I notice the word "if". Then I notice that Amulek is saying that if they do procrastinate the day of their repentance even until death those other things he was saying would be true. And then I think that's what happens when anyone procrastinates repenting for a long time. The longer anyone procrastinates repenting when they should repent, the more they are subject to the spirit of the devil and are becoming his disciples, with the Spirit of the Lord withdrawing from them and having no place in them. That is the final state of the wicked, but that doesn't mean the wicked can't repent if they want to. It just becomes more and more less likely that someone will repent the longer they procrastinate and do what the devil suggests and tempts them to do. And if someone did repent before they were resurrected, before they were assigned their state post resurrection, and received all of the ordinances necessary for exaltation or at least baptism including receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, then yes they would qualify for celestial glory, even if they waited until the last moment before their resurrection. It's just not likely that someone who would wait that long would repent, since they would have gone so long without repenting and they likely would still think their repentance wasn't necessary and receiving the ordinances of salvation and exaltation were not necessary, either. Quote Yes, that was sloppy on my part, good catch for the context. But Samuel is talking about the days of their mortal probation, is he not? Mormon makes reference to this exact same prophecy later on, and connects this limit to the point of their death: I'll let you wrestle with that one on your own. I believe I understand what he was talking about and a "connection" to the point of death does not mean that point of death is the deadline for how long they can wait to repent. Edited March 5, 2020 by Ahab
teddyaware Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 1 minute ago, InCognitus said: But I think this is the whole point. It is what people become, not where they've been that matters. How can anyone "become" anything if they don't have their heart in it and wait until the last possible moment to make the move? It's like what President Nelson taught in the April 2005 General Conference, in his talk Now is the Time to Prepare, what we have "become" is all that we take with us: Our time of preparation is limited if we procrastinate! We are hurting ourselves by doing so. There is definitely more to understand about how the judgement works for the telestial, terrestrial, and celestial kingdoms. But those lower kingdoms exist for a reason. A person who has become something less than celestial in their behavior would be completely uncomfortable in the celestial kingdom. There is no doubt whatsoever that procrastinating the day of repentance is extremely risky business, becoming riskier and riskier as one’s knowledge of the truth and the imperative need for repentance increases. But consider the following scenario... Let’s suppose that prior to any visitation by an angel that Alma the younger had been accidentally killed as he went about anxiously engaged in his unholy business of seeking to destroy the Church of God. Do you believe that if he had suffered those exquisite pains of hell immediately after his death that it wouldn’t have been possible for him to sincerely come unto Christ for rescue, forgiveness, the clearing of his conscience, and the sure promise of eternal life because of his soul’s redemption?
JAHS Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) We can't forget the importance of Grace in the equation : "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nep 23:22) Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved." (2 Nep 10:24) What is the definition of the word "saved" in these scriptures? Is it salvation into one of the three kingdoms of heaven or does it only apply to salvation in the Celestial Kingdom? I assume that everyone is "saved" to some degree of heaven but it is our faith based works and who we have become because of those works that determines which kingdom we are saved in. Edited March 5, 2020 by JAHS
InCognitus Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 10 minutes ago, Ahab said: Let's look at what he said, again: For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked. First I notice the word "if". Then I notice that Amulek is saying that if they do procrastinate the day of their repentance even until death those other things he was saying would be true. And then I think that's what happens when anyone procrastinates repenting for a long time. The longer anyone procrastinates repenting when they should repent, the more they are subject to the spirit of the devil and are becoming his disciples, with the Spirit of the Lord withdrawing from them and having no place in them. That is the final state of the wicked, but that doesn't mean the wicked can't repent if they want to. It just becomes more and more less likely that someone will repent the longer they procrastinate and do what the devil suggests and tempts them to do. And if someone did repent before they were resurrected, before they were assigned their state post resurrection, and received all of the ordinances necessary for exaltation or at least baptism including receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, then yes they would qualify for celestial glory, even if they waited until the last moment before their resurrection. It's just not likely that someone who would wait that long would repent, since they would have gone so long without repenting and they likely would still think their repentance wasn't necessary and receiving the ordinances of salvation and exaltation were not necessary, either. I'll let you wrestle with that one on your own. I believe I understand what he was talking about and a "connection" to the point of death does not mean that point of death is the deadline for how long they can wait to repent. I think we are talking about two different things. People CAN repent after death. But the question (and I'm not saying I know the answer to the question) is about whether or not they can receive the same reward (i.e. celestial kingdom) if they have full knowledge of the gospel and rebel against its teachings in this life. I believe that's the urgency that Amulek was talking about. I believe that's the situation that Mormon was lamenting about. And clearly Bruce R. McConkie didn't think that was possible given what he said in his famous Seven Deadly Heresies talk: https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie/seven-deadly-heresies/ Quote Heresy four: There are those who believe that the doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation. I knew a man, now deceased, not a member of the Church, who was a degenerate old reprobate who found pleasure, as he supposed, in living after the manner of the world. A cigarette dangled from his lips, alcohol stenched his breath, and profane and bawdy stories defiled his lips. His moral status left much to be desired. His wife was a member of the Church, as faithful as she could be under the circumstances. One day she said to him, “You know the Church is true; why won’t you be baptized?” He replied, “Of course I know the Church is true, but I have no intention of changing my habits in order to join it. I prefer to live the way I do. But that doesn’t worry me in the slightest. I know that as soon as I die, you will have someone go to the temple and do the work for me and everything will come out all right in the end anyway.” He died and she had the work done in the temple. We do not sit in judgment and deny vicarious ordinances to people. But what will it profit him? There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation. This life is the time and the day of our probation. After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. For those who do not have an opportunity to believe and obey the holy word in this life, the first chance to gain salvation will come in the spirit world. If those who hear the word for the first time in the realms ahead are the kind of people who would have accepted the gospel here, had the opportunity been afforded them, they will accept it there. Salvation for the dead is for those whose first chance to gain salvation is in the spirit world. In the revelation recently added to our canon of holy writ, these words are found: Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. [D&C 137:7–9] There is no other promise of salvation than the one recited in that revelation. Those who reject the gospel in this life and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom.
Ahab Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, InCognitus said: I think we are talking about two different things. People CAN repent after death. But the question (and I'm not saying I know the answer to the question) is about whether or not they can receive the same reward (i.e. celestial kingdom) if they have full knowledge of the gospel and rebel against its teachings in this life. I believe that's the urgency that Amulek was talking about. I believe that's the situation that Mormon was lamenting about. And clearly Bruce R. McConkie didn't think that was possible given what he said in his famous Seven Deadly Heresies talk: https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie/seven-deadly-heresies/ If you accept the testimony of Bruce R. McConkie on this as the word of God, then you have your answer. If you don't then you are as you are now, not sure about what is true in relation to this. I believe our Lord and our Father in heaven are more merciful than any of us can comprehend, which to me means that they are at least as merciful as I can comprehend. The atonement of Jesus Christ is certainly powerful enough to redeem anyone and everyone from all of their sins and the only condition I am aware of is that we be willing to repent of all of the things we know we should not do, and do what we know we should do, while making a covenant with our Lord that we will try to do the will of our Lord and our Father in heaven. Whenever we don't repent, we simply need to repent from not repenting and repent instead of not repenting. We do have a deadline, though, and that deadline is the moment we are judged. I said before that last moment was the moment before we are resurrected, but now I see that is not correct because our Lord determines the time we will be resurrected with some of us resurrected before some others of us. I may be wrong but I believe the next time for the resurrection of the righteous, generally, will be when our Lord returns in glory. Everyone else will still be in spirit prison and those who repent before the end of the millenium will receive terrestrial glory, while those who don't repent before then will receive either telestial glory or no additional glory at all. I have spoken. This is all I have to say about this.
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