Ahab Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said: I will say that over the years I've known you here it is statements like this that are off-putting. They come off as arrogant, patronizing, and condescending. Is there more for me to learn? Of course there is. But the point is how you appear when you say things like this. I suppose I appear as someone who knows there is still more for you to learn than you know now. And as you say, of course there is. Would I sound better to you if I said I know there is also more for me to learn than I know now? Well, I do. I know that too. When I look at a statement that somebody else has made I think about whether or not I agree with that statement, and if I'd like to have a discussion about it I then think of what I might be able to say to add to it. No offense was intended, and what I said was the truth. Maybe I should have just said something like "There is more for all of us to learn" without singling you out, specifically. I'll consider that and then maybe say something like that the next time I want to add something to what someone else has told me.
etana Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 9 minutes ago, CV75 said: I think Ellen DeGeneres and George Bush have shown that people can indeed feel loved and respected while their politics (and I'll suggest that includes their moral positions on marriage) are at such odds. Absolutely, but that misses much of the nuance of the discussion here. For relevance, do you think, had he been invited, that President Bush would have attended Ellen's wedding?
Ahab Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 9 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: A Hindu is by definition a non-Christian! Not in my book. Who told you that and why do you believe it? If our conscience or sense of right and wrong comes from Jesus Christ, before we overrule what our conscience tells us and rationalize something is right when our conscience told us it isn't right, by definition following the light of Christ makes someone a Christian. The word "Hindu" is a mortal construct and what really matters is whether or not people are getting their good ideas from Jesus Christ and following him by accepting them. 9 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: You are twisting words and definitions, which is why my original post said your argument is meaningless. No, you are, in my book. Someone who follows the good ideas they get from Jesus Christ is a Christian, to at least some extent. He is the source of all good things in our lives, including all of the good ideas we get from the time we are born on this planet. If you want to attribute those good ideas to someone else, other than Jesus Christ, or the Father of Jesus who Jesus Christ worships, or the Holy Ghost who bears testimony of Jesus Christ as well as our Father in heaven, and then say that those people who share those good ideas were not ever influenced by Jesus Christ to any extent whatsoever, then I would say you are wrong and are not following Jesus Christ when you think something like that. Fortunately we can turn around and accept Jesus Christ right after we reject him or his teachings, though, so there is still some hope for you yet.
Calm Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, rockpond said: If someone communicated to me that they felt my marriage was morally repugnant, I would not feel loved or respected by them. And I would be unlikely to give them much space in my life. My wife and kids are my world and I don't know how I could believe that someone, who found my relationship with them to be morally repugnant, also loved and respected me. The attachment of the term "morally repugnant" to the judgment places the judgment in a different category than disagreement or viewing the marriage as immoral imo. Repugnant usually means repulsed, disgusted and my mind always goes to the image gagging or one's nose wrinkling up in distaste when confronted by repulsive fruit. "Repugnant" implies a very strong, negative emotional feeling and even likely a physical reaction when speaking of the object that is repugnant...which would tend to be both memorable if expressed and weighted as a very significant part of the attitude towards the couple imo. I can see them struggling to understand how such a strong emotional reaction would not color every interaction and overwhelm positive feelings, even if somehow the person was capable of compartmentalizing such a strong feeling (which I do believe is possible, humans are good at adapting to the needs of a situation). Perhaps Scott sees "morally repugnant" in different terms though as his paraphrases often seem to ignore the strength of emotional value attached to the word (I am not suggesting finding something repugnant means someone is being overly emotional, I am talking about how influential that feeling will have on other attitudes and feelings). Edited October 9, 2019 by Calm
ttribe Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 47 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: HJW misrepresented me. He implied that I would take a child out of a will for being in a gay marriage. This was totally out of the blue. I never said anything remotely like that. And he implied I would refuse to allow them to visit at Christmas. I said just the opposite, including on my list of ways to show love and respect inviting them to be involved in family gatherings and remembering them at Christmas. If anyone is misrepresenting, it is he. He CLEARLY was using those as examples of things parents MIGHT DO or have done. There was nothing specific to you in that post. Your victim status is untenable. 1
MiserereNobis Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, Ahab said: Not in my book. Who told you that and why do you believe it? If our conscience or sense of right and wrong comes from Jesus Christ, before we overrule what our conscience tells us and rationalize something is right when our conscience told us it isn't right, by definition following the light of Christ makes someone a Christian. The word "Hindu" is a mortal construct and what really matters is whether or not people are getting their good ideas from Jesus Christ and following him by accepting them. No, you are, in my book. Someone who follows the good ideas they get from Jesus Christ is a Christian, to at least some extent. He is the source of all good things in our lives, including all of the good ideas we get from the time we are born on this planet. If you want to attribute those good ideas to someone else, other than Jesus Christ, or the Father of Jesus who Jesus Christ worships, or the Holy Ghost who bears testimony of Jesus Christ as well as our Father in heaven, and then say that those people who share those good ideas were not ever influenced by Jesus Christ to any extent whatsoever, then I would say you are wrong and are not following Jesus Christ when you think something like that. Fortunately we can turn around and accept Jesus Christ right after we reject him or his teachings, though, so there is still some hope for you yet. This is becoming surreal, seriously. You accuse me of twisting words when I say a Hindu isn't a Christian. That is not twisting, that is basic definition. I understand your belief that when someone follows their conscience they are following promptings from God, but that does not make one a Christian. Quote Fortunately we can turn around and accept Jesus Christ right after we reject him or his teachings, though, so there is still some hope for you yet. I thought you said you were going to try to stop being arrogant, patronizing, and condescending.
Ahab Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 34 minutes ago, rockpond said: I think actions and choices of our kids fall into a different category than a loved one's marriage. While a marriage may be an action or a choice it is on a different level than say, the choice to do drugs. I can speak to how I would feel: If someone communicated to me that they felt my marriage was morally repugnant, I would not feel loved or respected by them. And I would be unlikely to give them much space in my life. My wife and kids are my world and I don't know how I could believe that someone, who found my relationship with them to be morally repugnant, also loved and respected me. Think back to this moment if any of your children ever choose to marry someone of the same sex while you feel that is a morally repugnant choice. Will you wonder how or if your child would know you loved and respected him or her while you felt that way?
rockpond Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ahab said: Think back to this moment if any of your children ever choose to marry someone of the same sex while you feel that is a morally repugnant choice. Will you wonder how or if your child would know you loved and respected him or her while you felt that way? I don't find same sex marriage to be morally repugnant.
ttribe Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 12 minutes ago, Ahab said: Not in my book. Who told you that and why do you believe it? If our conscience or sense of right and wrong comes from Jesus Christ, before we overrule what our conscience tells us and rationalize something is right when our conscience told us it isn't right, by definition following the light of Christ makes someone a Christian. The word "Hindu" is a mortal construct and what really matters is whether or not people are getting their good ideas from Jesus Christ and following him by accepting them. No, you are, in my book. Someone who follows the good ideas they get from Jesus Christ is a Christian, to at least some extent. He is the source of all good things in our lives, including all of the good ideas we get from the time we are born on this planet. If you want to attribute those good ideas to someone else, other than Jesus Christ, or the Father of Jesus who Jesus Christ worships, or the Holy Ghost who bears testimony of Jesus Christ as well as our Father in heaven, and then say that those people who share those good ideas were not ever influenced by Jesus Christ to any extent whatsoever, then I would say you are wrong and are not following Jesus Christ when you think something like that. Fortunately we can turn around and accept Jesus Christ right after we reject him or his teachings, though, so there is still some hope for you yet. Here's a piece of information you might not have considered previously - "[Your] book" does not seem to be the same one used by the majority of the rest of society. You speak in riddles and seem to think everyone understands and shares your definitions of words; words that are so far a field from the common definitions and understanding that they are unrecognizable when you use them. In short, you say really weird things and seem to have no self-awareness on the issue. 2
Ahab Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: This is becoming surreal, seriously. You accuse me of twisting words when I say a Hindu isn't a Christian. That is not twisting, that is basic definition. That is someone's definition, yes, and you have bought into it. Whoever you got that idea from doesn't speak for everybody, though. Someone who follows any teaching Christ approves of is following Christ to at least some extent by following that teaching. That's just basic common sense. is it hard for you to kick against the pricks from your conscience? 2 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: I understand your belief that when someone follows their conscience they are following promptings from God, but that does not make one a Christian. If that is true, then yes it does. I say that is true. If someone follows promptings they get from God then they are following God. Where are you getting the idea that isn't true? 2 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: I thought you said you were going to try to stop being arrogant, patronizing, and condescending. Yeah, tough habit to break, especially when I feel like I really want to try to get through to you to try to wake you up to seeing the truth! I should probably stop talking to you for a while now, though. I think I've already given you plenty to think about and consider.
ttribe Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Ahab said: That is someone's definition, yes, and you have bought into it. Whoever you got that idea from doesn't speak for everybody, though. Someone who follows any teaching Christ approves of is following Christ to at least some extent by following that teaching. That's just basic common sense. is it hard for you to kick against the pricks from your conscience? If that is true, then yes it does. I say that is true. If someone follows promptings they get from God then they are following God. Where are you getting the idea that isn't true? Yeah, tough habit to break, especially when I feel like I really want to try to get through to you to try to wake you up to seeing the truth! I should probably stop talking to you for a while now, though. I think I've already given you plenty to think about and consider. Yep, arrogant, self-righteous, tone deaf, and rude.
Ahab Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, rockpond said: I don't find same sex marriage to be morally repugnant. Then substitute "same sex marriage" for something you do feel is morally repugnant. You do realize repugnant simply means unacceptable, don't you? As in not right or the proper form of marriage. I didn't realize you thought same sex marriage was acceptable, to God I mean. We all know the world thinks it is okay but I thought you were a bit above the kind of thinking the world is generally known for.
Ahab Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, ttribe said: Yep, arrogant, self-righteous, tone deaf, and rude. What can I say. I am not perfect, yet.
Ahab Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 10 minutes ago, ttribe said: Here's a piece of information you might not have considered previously - "[Your] book" does not seem to be the same one used by the majority of the rest of society. You speak in riddles and seem to think everyone understands and shares your definitions of words; words that are so far a field from the common definitions and understanding that they are unrecognizable when you use them. In short, you say really weird things and seem to have no self-awareness on the issue. Society in general, the world as I call it, is wrong about a whole lot of things and I talk the way I talk to try to get more people in society to think a bit more about what they think and why they think what they think and why they should consider changing their minds on some things. I think of it as stirring the pot, and I am glad to see that you are paying attention.
ttribe Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, Ahab said: Society in general, the world as I call it, is wrong about a whole lot of things and I talk the way I talk to try to get more people in society to think a bit more about what they think and why they think what they think and why they should consider changing their minds on some things. I think of it as stirring the pot, and I am glad to see that you are paying attention.
Ahab Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, ttribe said: And yes even when you post a picture you show you were paying attention, at least a little bit.
ttribe Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 14 minutes ago, Ahab said: Society in general, the world as I call it, is wrong about a whole lot of things and I talk the way I talk to try to get more people in society to think a bit more about what they think and why they think what they think and why they should consider changing their minds on some things. I think of it as stirring the pot, and I am glad to see that you are paying attention. 2 minutes ago, Ahab said: And yes even when you post a picture you show you were paying attention, at least a little bit. Apparently, the arrogance is boundless. Another piece of information which may be news to you - it is not everyone else's duty to conform to your personal vocabulary and definitions in order to facilitate communication. Your alleged "message" is lost in the noise you create. Your approach is, near as I can tell, completely ineffective.
MiserereNobis Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 24 minutes ago, Ahab said: Yeah, tough habit to break, especially when I feel like I really want to try to get through to you to try to wake you up to seeing the truth! I should probably stop talking to you for a while now, though. I think I've already given you plenty to think about and consider. You want me to wake up and see the truth that a Hindu is actually a Christian. Am I in a re-education camp? I'm with Picard on this one: 2
Ahab Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 9 minutes ago, ttribe said: Apparently, the arrogance is boundless. it's not really arrogance, although I can understand why you would think that way. I don't feel superior to other people. I just know I know more than a lot of people and around here I can see a whole lot of people who don't know as much as I do about some things. 9 minutes ago, ttribe said: Another piece of information which may be news to you - it is not everyone else's duty to conform to your personal vocabulary and definitions in order to facilitate communication. Your alleged "message" is lost in the noise you create. Your approach is, near as I can tell, completely ineffective. A lot of people do seem to want to facilitate communication with me, though, so that's nice even though it isn't their duty. Have you noticed how I manage to communicate with pretty much everyone here? Most people do understand me. Some just do not agree with me.
Ahab Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: You want me to wake up and see the truth that a Hindu is actually a Christian. Am I in a re-education camp? I'm with Picard on this one: That was in his script. He had to say that.
rockpond Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 40 minutes ago, Ahab said: Then substitute "same sex marriage" for something you do feel is morally repugnant. You do realize repugnant simply means unacceptable, don't you? As in not right or the proper form of marriage. I didn't realize you thought same sex marriage was acceptable, to God I mean. We all know the world thinks it is okay but I thought you were a bit above the kind of thinking the world is generally known for. I’m not concerned with what the world thinks of gay marriage. I believe God accepts and honors marriages of loving, committed gay couples in the same way he accepts and honors marriages of opposite sex couples. It is a belief I came to through a lengthy period of study, pondering, and prayer.
ttribe Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 10 minutes ago, Ahab said: it's not really arrogance, although I can understand why you would think that way. I don't feel superior to other people. I just know I know more than a lot of people and around here I can see a whole lot of people who don't know as much as I do about some things. A lot of people do seem to want to facilitate communication with me, though, so that's nice even though it isn't their duty. Have you noticed how I manage to communicate with pretty much everyone here? Most people do understand me. Some just do not agree with me.
Calm Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Ahab said: talk the way I talk to try to get more people in society to think a bit more about what they think and why they think what they think and why they should consider changing their minds on some things. And several of us have talked to you in an attempt to try to get you to think a bit more about what you think and why you think what you think and why you should consider changing your mind on some things. Doesn't seem to be working though as your communication style is as confusing as ever (and more people seem to be commenting on it, not less imo) and whatever knowledge you have that others don't have is not being conveyed effectively. I like to communicate with people and it is frustrating when it obviously isn't happening. And I don't see you communicating with people much, but rather just posting. Edited October 9, 2019 by Calm 1
Ahab Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 10 minutes ago, rockpond said: I’m not concerned with what the world thinks of gay marriage. I believe God accepts and honors marriages of loving, committed gay couples in the same way he accepts and honors marriages of opposite sex couples. It is a belief I came to through a lengthy period of study, pondering, and prayer. I suppose you realize your answer to question 7 should be in the affirmative. 7. Do you support or promote any teachings, practices, or doctrine contrary to those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? I hope you will answer it honestly.
stemelbow Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 20 minutes ago, Ahab said: It's not really arrogance, although I can understand why you would think that way. I don't feel superior to other people. I just know I know more than a lot of people and around here I can see a whole lot of people who don't know as much as I do about some things. Ok. I"m seeing how you think what you said makes sense.
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