Temple recommend interview questions

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But you then went on to imply that this would not be sufficient, that a couple likely would not accept such gestures unless one capitulated totally, caved in on one’s own moral standards and congratulated them on their gay marriage. 

No, I did not ever say that.  This is at least the second time I've corrected you on this.  Here is what I wrote:

"I think the examples you gave are great ways to show love and respect.  Sincerely.

But I readily admit two issues with that:

1.  I don't see the the hug and "Congratulations!" at their wedding to condone their marriage any more than most of the examples you gave.  Though, I understand why you feel that way given your response that the wedding ceremony specifically honors and celebrates the marriage.

2.  I struggle to understand how a person can feel loved and respected by you if they know that you feel their marriage is "morally repugnant".  I understand (or perceive) your sincere intent here to walk the "fine line" that President Oaks referred to in his address last Saturday night.  I just can't comprehend it personally."

 

[CV75]

44 minutes ago, rockpond said:

2.  I struggle to understand how a person can feel loved and respected by you if they know that you feel their marriage is "morally repugnant".  I understand (or perceive) your sincere intent here to walk the "fine line" that President Oaks referred to in his address last Saturday night.  I just can't comprehend it personally."

Ellen DeGeneres and George Bush have shown how!

[Ahab]

14 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

This explanation makes your claim meaningless.

Your argument is:

1) Only LDS Christians can be happy

No that isn't 'my argument.  Teancum said: Newsflash-you and the LDS Church do not have the only prescriptions for happiness.  I said we do have it, and other Christians in the world have it too.  the only prescription there is for it.  Please try to pay better attention.

14 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

2) Even non-LDS Christians are part of the LDS Church in some way

No, I didn't say that either.  I was saying how there are other Christians even outside of the "LDS Church" as you call it.  I wasn't saying they are parts or members of our Church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

14 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

3) Even non-Christians are Christian in some way

Wow you just make stuff up as you go along don't you.  I never said that or anything like unto it.

14 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

The conclusion is obvious: everyone can be happy.

As long as they are Christian at least a little bit.  And people can be Christian without being a member of the only true and living church of Jesus Christ on this planet, even if they don't go by the name or some people don't refer to them as "Christian".

14 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

But that conclusion makes your initial claim irrelevant.

 

You're the one who came up with the false conclusion.  I think you probably do that more than you realize.

[Ahab]

14 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

This explains why I am Catholic, too

(by the way, bona fide is a Catholic term... a priest's bona fides is the proof that he is actually a priest. So yeah, go for a bona fide miracle  )

Oh, sorry, I wasn't aware that you had the exclusive rights to that term.  Substitute true and real if that makes what I meant more clear to you.

[Ahab]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Ahab, I know the drill as well if not better than you do. I was a full active believing latter day saint for 55 years. I had what Latter-day Saints term as a testimony and promote that as knowing. Now on the other side I believe I see things more clearly now with objectivity I don't think I ever had when I operated from dogma and full on indoctrination.You may think you know and if that works for you fine. But don't expect the majority of the world to agree or be surprised when you promote your alleged truth as the ultimate truth on which all things should be judges is met with skepticism.

Your experience was not and still is not my experience.  Try to understand that. For all I know you could have simply been regurgitating what people tried to teach you and you thought you had what they were talking about when you actually never did.  I do know what I have though and your refusal to acknowledge that doesn't wipe what I have away. Not that I expect that you will believe me when I say that, either, but I'm putting it out there instead of hiding it under a bushel.  I know what each person needs to do to receive an assurance from God about what is true, and I know people can refuse to believe even what God tells them, so there is no need for you to explain to me how people can still be skeptics about or even refuse to believe what God has and is still  probably trying to tell them..

Quote

Now that said thinking this through a bit more I do understand why you with your world view may not want to be congratulatory to someone who is entering a homosexual marriage. There was a time I felt the same way so I do understand. But I do feel it is a sad way to live your life and a poor way to view the world and the human experience.

So help me to make sure that I understand what you are saying.  When people you know are about to do something which you don't think they should do because you believe what they are about to do is a really bad thing for them to do,  you just congratulate them for it anyway?

They're about to make what you see as a huge mistake, and you say something like: Congratulations!!!    ???

I think that's just weird, and wrong, f you want to know how I think about that.  Even if they thought they were about to do what they believe is the most awesome thing in the world, and I saw that it was really a bad thing for them to do, I would definitely not say: Congratulations!

Well, at least not in a serious way.  Maybe I should develop my sense of humor a bit better though so that maybe I could say it with sarcasm and they would think I was just trying to be funny.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Ahab

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

No, I did not ever say that.  This is at least the second time I've corrected you on this.  Here is what I wrote:

"I think the examples you gave are great ways to show love and respect.  Sincerely.

But I readily admit two issues with that:

1.  I don't see the the hug and "Congratulations!" at their wedding to condone their marriage any more than most of the examples you gave.  Though, I understand why you feel that way given your response that the wedding ceremony specifically honors and celebrates the marriage.

2.  I struggle to understand how a person can feel loved and respected by you if they know that you feel their marriage is "morally repugnant".  I understand (or perceive) your sincere intent here to walk the "fine line" that President Oaks referred to in his address last Saturday night.  I just can't comprehend it personally."

 

What is it you can’t comprehend? That you can feel and show love and respect for someone while disapproving of a choice he has made? I don’t understand why that should be so incomprehensible. 
 

Take the example of those who join the Church against the wishes of their parents, yet the parents, to their own credit, go on loving and respecting them. Is that so inscrutable that the children would accept and appreciate the continued love of their parents under such circumstances, even though their heart aches because of the antipathy of the parents toward the Church?

Edited October 9, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[rockpond]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What is it you can’t comprehend? That you can feel and show love and respect for someone while disapproving of a choice he has made? I don’t understand why that should be so incomprehensible. 
 

Take the example of those who join the Church against the wishes of their parents, yet the parents, to their own credit, go on loving and respecting them. Is that so inscrutable?

No, it’s not that one can feel love and show respect for someone while disapproving of choices they have made.  I get that. 

It’s what I wrote:

I struggle to understand how a person can feel loved and respected by you if they know that you feel their marriage is "morally repugnant".

[HappyJackWagon]

11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

We’re in a sorry state if it is no longer feasible to show love and respect for an individual without condoning behavior of which one disapproves or caving in on one’s own values

If someone told you they love you and your wife yet refused to come to an anniversary reception, or refused to let you stay at their house, or refused to introduce you as a couple to their friends, because (for whatever reason) they didn't approve of your marriage, would you feel loved and respected?

[Ahab]

13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Take the example of those who join the Church against the wishes of their parents, yet the parents, to their own credit, go on loving and respecting them. Is that so inscrutable that the children would accept and appreciate the continued love of their parents under such circumstances, even though their heart aches because of the antipathy of the parents toward the Church?

Good example. I think what he wants to see though is an example where everybody is happy about the couple who got married, rather than the parents wishing they didn't and the married couple realizing the parents have antipathy towards the Church.

Something that just cannot happen when some people are happy about what they are doing while others have feelings of antipathy about what those people just did.

[MustardSeed]

18 hours ago, Ahab said:

Jews were Christians long before most Christians in the New Testament, and some of them were Jewish, too.  Their father Abraham is the father of our faith and religion, too.  There are more Christians in the world than you may realize.

Then what in the world are you attaching happiness to? 

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Then what in the world are you attaching happiness to? 

Following Jesus Christ, and I'm saying that even people who follow his promptings to seek what is good and how to be better people even just a little bit can be at least a little bit happy.

For example, if we follow our conscience or at least try to we are following the light of Christ to the extent that we do, and to the extent that we do we can be happy at least a little bit.

Would you like to tell me what happens when people totally disregard any promptings they receive from Jesus Christ?  What does that result in, do you think? 

[Ahab]

22 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I struggle to understand how a person can feel loved and respected by you if they know that you feel their marriage is "morally repugnant".

Let me try to put it this way  If I feel someone's marriage is morally repugnant and I voice my feelings and thoughts to them to let them know how I feel about their marriage because I am trying to help them see why they should get out of that mess, do you think that maybe they might get the idea that I'm trying to help them and that the reason I am trying to help them is because I love and respect them as people who are capable of being truly happy if they will only just make the right decisions and repent of any bad decisions they have made?

That's what they would have to be able to connect with to be able to feel my love and respect for them.  They could totally not get it, they may instead think that I am just out of date and old fashioned and I need to get with the times and realize that hey actually people marrying someone of the same sex is a pretty good thing but if they can connect with my feelings and my thoughts and realize where I am coming from then I think that maybe, just maybe, they might begin to realize that I do have love and respect for them.

[rockpond]

34 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Let me try to put it this way  If I feel someone's marriage is morally repugnant and I voice my feelings and thoughts to them to let them know how I feel about their marriage because I am trying to help them see why they should get out of that mess, do you think that maybe they might get the idea that I'm trying to help them and that the reason I am trying to help them is because I love and respect them as people who are capable of being truly happy if they will only just make the right decisions and repent of any bad decisions they have made?

No.

 

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

No.

 

I thought as much.  And as I said, that's what they would have to be able to connect with to be able to feel my love and respect for them.  They could totally not get it, they may instead think that I am just out of date and old fashioned and I need to get with the times and realize that hey actually people marrying someone of the same sex is a pretty good thing but if they can connect with my feelings and my thoughts and realize where I am coming from then I think that maybe, just maybe, they might begin to realize that I do have love and respect for them.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Ahab

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I thought as much.  And as I said, that's what they would have to be able to connect with to be able to feel my love and respect for them.  They could totally not get it, they may instead think that I am just out of date and old fashioned and I need to get with the times and realize that hey actually people marrying someone of the same sex is a pretty good thing but if they can connect with my feelings and my thoughts and realize where I am coming from then I think that maybe, just maybe, they might begin to realize that I do have love and respect for them.

If they were able to connect with your feelings, thoughts, and realize where you are coming from... yes.  But your question to me was if I thought that they would get *that*.  I don't think they would be likely to.

I guess that would work or you because then you can blame them for not recognizing your love and respect.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Good example. I think what he wants to see though is an example where everybody is happy about the couple who got married, rather than the parents wishing they didn't and the married couple realizing the parents have antipathy towards the Church.

Something that just cannot happen when some people are happy about what they are doing while others have feelings of antipathy about what those people just did.

Yeah. The issue is showing love and respect in spite of a very difficult obstacle in a relationship. Apparently, Rockpond thinks this would be “very difficult” for a gay couple to accept unless those who disapprove of gay marriage totally capitulate and abandon their values. 
 

I hope that’s not true in very many cases. Family members should not be required to give up their earnestly held beliefs in order to have their gay loved ones accept their gestures of love and respect. 

[rockpond]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Yeah. The issue is showing love and respect in spite of a very difficult obstacle in a relationship. Apparently, Rockpond thinks this would be “very difficult” for a gay couple to accept unless those who disapprove of gay marriage totally capitulate and abandon their values.

I'm starting to feel like you are being intentionally dishonest by repeatedly making false claims about what I have said after I have explained why that is not true and pointed you to my posts that demonstrate such.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

If someone told you they love you and your wife yet refused to come to an anniversary reception, or refused to let you stay at their house, or refused to introduce you as a couple to their friends, because (for whatever reason) they didn't approve of your marriage, would you feel loved and respected?

Go back and read my post in which I reeled off several possible ways family members could show love and respect short of attending a wedding they don’t approve of and giving insincere congratulations. 
 

When you can show evidence you have read that post, I’ll answer your question. It’s obvious you haven’t done so yet. 

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, rockpond said:

If they were able to connect with your feelings, thoughts, and realize where you are coming from... yes.  But your question to me was if I thought that they would get *that*.  I don't think they would be likely to.

 You're the one thinking they wouldn't be likely to get that, though.  I get that.  I'd rather think my hypothetical niece who was about to marry a hypothetical woman probably would get it, though.  In fact, because of how well we know each other, I am pretty positive that she would.

4 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I guess that would work or you because then you can blame them for not recognizing your love and respect.

Of course.  Just as it is your fault for not being able to recognize that I would have enough love and respect for them to try to help them as much as I possibly could.  It certainly isn't because of my lack of love or respect.

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I'm starting to feel like you are being intentionally dishonest by repeatedly making false claims about what I have said after I have explained why that is not true and pointed you to my posts that demonstrate such.

Did you not say it would be “very difficult” for a gay couple to accept gestures of love and respect under such circumstances and that you were “struggling to understand”’how they would be able to do so? 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Did you not say it would be “very difficult” for a gay couple to accept gestures of love and respect under such circumstances and that you were “struggling to understand”’how they would be able to do so? 

I think this is the third time I have re-quoted this line for you:

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

I struggle to understand how a person can feel loved and respected by you if they know that you feel their marriage is "morally repugnant".

I never said anything about needing to...

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

... totally capitulate and abandon their values. 

 

[rockpond]

7 minutes ago, Ahab said:

It certainly isn't because of my lack of love or respect.

I never claimed that it was.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

No, it’s not that one can feel love and show respect for someone while disapproving of choices they have made.  I get that. 

It’s what I wrote:

I struggle to understand how a person can feel loved and respected by you if they know that you feel their marriage is "morally repugnant".

Go back to my comparison with people who join the Church against the wishes of their parents. Parents in such instances have awfully low opinions of the Church, yet if they offer gestures of love and respect, the children readily accept those gestures. 

[HappyJackWagon]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Go back and read my post in which I reeled off several possible ways family members could show love and respect short of attending a wedding they don’t approve of and giving insincere congratulations. 
 

When you can show evidence you have read that post, I’ll answer your question. It’s obvious you haven’t done so yet. 

Here is the evidence that I read your post. I don't think it's as amazing as you seem to think. You said...

Quote

You are indeed giving a false dichotomy: Either attend the wedding and express pretended congratulations or you can’t show love and respect. 

I can scarcely believe you can’t come up with options on your own. But here are a few possibilities that come to mind:
 

— A phone call, letter or direct conversation expressing love and respect.  
 

— Bringing them home-cooked or baked food or garden produce. 
 

— Inviting their involvement in family gatherings and activities. 
 

— Remembering them at Christmas time or on birthdays with cards and/or gifts.

— Visiting them when they are sick, injured or hospitalized. 
 

— Running errands or doing other tasks for them when they are incapacitated  

— Taking them to or from the airport, bus or train station when needed.

— Helping them find employment opportunities. 
— Attending school or college commencement exercises or other special occasions (that do not involve celebrating homosexual behavior).

— Tutoring them or teaching them useful skills. 
— Asking their help with something.

If you really do need help imagining ways to show love and respect — ones that don’t involve giving insincere congratulations for repugnant behavior — consider this passage from Matthew 25:

“35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
“36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.”

Now I look forward to hearing your response to my specific question. If someone told you they love you and your wife and did one or two of those nice things you suggested, yet refused to come to an anniversary reception, or refused to let you stay at their house, or refused to introduce you as a couple to their friends, because (for whatever reason) they didn't approve of your marriage, would you feel love and respected?

[HappyJackWagon]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Go back to my comparison with people who join the Church against the wishes of their parents. Parents in such instances have awfully low opinions of the Church, yet if they offer gestures of love and respect, the children readily accept those gestures. 

But you act as if a good gesture outweighs or at least evens out a bad gesture.

If those parents do a nice thing for their child (which is only the human thing to do) yet disown them from their will, refuse to allow them to visit at Christmas or any number of awful, rude things, does it matter much that they brought you dinner one night? There certainly isn't respect there. Love is debatable.