Bill Reel (DBMormon) “I know everything...)

[6EQUJ5]

13 hours ago, Bede said:

@DBMormon in a recent Facebook post you tell a story about a former ward member who contacted you and claimed that you “both know the truth.” While I agree with you that claiming to know what someone else believes is insensitive, your response is, in my opinion, ridiculous. 

 

 

Bill, this is such an insufferably arrogant thing to claim, and it’s not true. 

But even if it were, many people have read, studied, and even dedicated their lives to the academic study or Mormonism—in other words, far exceeding your “vast” Quinn and Vogel book collection—and yet still remain believers. 

So here is where people like you usually make excuses “well, they aren’t really believers.” That, of course, is the same arrogant take you attribute to your friend, claiming to know what others believe.

So how do you reconcile this? A pawn shop  manager who has read a bunch of Quinn and Vogel books and becomes an unbeliever vs. university professors and scholars who have dedicated their lives to these topics and still remain believers?

 

 

I has been sad to watch Bill go from honest broker, to anti-Mormon shill.

[HappyJackWagon]

12 hours ago, Bede said:

@DBMormon in a recent Facebook post you tell a story about a former ward member who contacted you and claimed that you “both know the truth.” While I agree with you that claiming to know what someone else believes is insensitive, your response is, in my opinion, ridiculous. 

 

 

Bill, this is such an insufferably arrogant thing to claim, and it’s not true. 

But even if it were, many people have read, studied, and even dedicated their lives to the academic study or Mormonism—in other words, far exceeding your “vast” Quinn and Vogel book collection—and yet still remain believers. 

So here is where people like you usually make excuses “well, they aren’t really believers.” That, of course, is the same arrogant take you attribute to your friend, claiming to know what others believe.

So how do you reconcile this? A pawn shop  manager who has read a bunch of Quinn and Vogel books and becomes an unbeliever vs. university professors and scholars who have dedicated their lives to these topics and still remain believers?

 

 

This strikes me as a trolling post, looking to provoke Bill and others.

Let's recap- you are super upset that Bill is so certain that the church is NOT true and you emphatically state "Bill, this is such an insufferably arrogant thing to claim, and it’s not true. "

Bill made a bold statement. You made a bold statement. I think everyone recognizes that Bill is stating his opinion based on what he believes, as are you. Big deal. Why are you so offended by Bill? He's a guy on the internet with a podcast and website. Why do you care?

You illustrate your bias by simply appealing to authority while mocking Bill. Is there some reason why a "pawn shop manager" can't be knowledgeable about the church, doctrine, history, etc? Are university professors always the best and understanding truth? Why should I listen to them? I'll also note that there are plenty of professors who would side with Bill. If we tally all of the professors who side with Bill versus all of the professors that side with you, who would win? No one, because it's still a matter of personal belief and faith.

Your trolling and mockery is unappealing. I'm sure you'll find people who agree with you, but your methods aren't going to lead anyone to Christ or the church. In fact, I think your tactics have the opposite effect.

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, TOmNossor said:

I hope this because the only BIG unsolved problem for LDS truth claims (the origins of the Book of Abraham) cannot overcome the existence of the Book of Mormon.

I don't want to make this thread about the BoA but just notice that if Joseph could have translated the Book of Mormon without the plates (which he did) he could translate the BoA without the actual papyrus.

If one has a testimony of the Book of Mormon there is no reason not to have a testimony of the book of Abraham.

It was the same process- direct revelation. 

 

 

[mfbukowski]

Newsflash!!

Somebody is wrong on the internet!!

 

[DBMormon]

As part of an assignment as a General Authority Seventy, Elder Corbridge needed to read through a great deal of material antagonistic to the Church, the Prophet Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.

“There may not be anything out there (of that nature) I haven’t read,” he said.

 

Where is Captain Literal when you need him......   obvious exaggeration used to make a point but by all means...... balance restored!

[ALarson]

45 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This strikes me as a trolling post, looking to provoke Bill and others.

Let's recap- you are super upset that Bill is so certain that the church is NOT true and you emphatically state "Bill, this is such an insufferably arrogant thing to claim, and it’s not true. "

Bill made a bold statement. You made a bold statement. I think everyone recognizes that Bill is stating his opinion based on what he believes, as are you. Big deal. Why are you so offended by Bill? He's a guy on the internet with a podcast and website. Why do you care?

You illustrate your bias by simply appealing to authority while mocking Bill. Is there some reason why a "pawn shop manager" can't be knowledgeable about the church, doctrine, history, etc? Are university professors always the best and understanding truth? Why should I listen to them? I'll also note that there are plenty of professors who would side with Bill. If we tally all of the professors who side with Bill versus all of the professors that side with you, who would win? No one, because it's still a matter of personal belief and faith.

Your trolling and mockery is unappealing. I'm sure you'll find people who agree with you, but your methods aren't going to lead anyone to Christ or the church. In fact, I think your tactics have the opposite effect.

I actually thought it was against board rules to post a thread specifically to attack or tear down a person.  I need to review the rules, but it seems odd this would be allowed here.  

I can see no purpose in this thread and there have been many other discussions from the past doing the same thing to Bill Reel.  I don't follow him really, but I know many have strong feelings about him and seem to have had a relationship of some sort or another in the past.  But this is bad form, IMO (to come here and do this once again....).

What is the purpose of this thread Bede?

Edited April 29, 2019 by ALarson

[ALarson]

12 hours ago, Bede said:

The whole comment about “99%” of the material he has read being unavailable to members is untrue. In fact, @DBMormon is probably aware of that, so it’s therefore a deliberately deceptive thing to say.

Is that what he really said or did he say 99% of members are still unaware of many of the issues from church history?  Do you have his exact quote as I'd like to see it.

Either way, that's his opinion and you can disagree.....so what?  Is is worth starting an entire discussion about it?

[ALarson]

10 hours ago, Bede said:

I posted that while on my phone and didn’t get the quote right. Let’s not quibble over it

Wow.  Seriously?

Let's not quibble, but let's pile on and condemn him for saying something he didn't say?

[Duncan]

13 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

As part of an assignment as a General Authority Seventy, Elder Corbridge needed to read through a great deal of material antagonistic to the Church, the Prophet Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.

“There may not be anything out there (of that nature) I haven’t read,” he said.

 

Where is Captain Literal when you need him......   obvious exaggeration used to make a point but by all means...... balance restored!

if you bother to read the full quotation though, because you're supposed to have read everything including this, you'll find you're wrong again, surprise surprise

"As part of an assignment I had as a General Authority a few years ago, I needed to read through a great deal of material antagonistic to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the events of the Restoration. There may not be anything out there of that nature I haven’t read. Since that assignment changed, I have not returned to wallow in that mire again."

He's talking about " a great deal" and "of that nature" not everything like you claimed and you also claim to understand it better and "deeply"

[mfbukowski]

24 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

Where is Captain Literal when you need him.....

Look in the mirror.

 

[ALarson]

11 minutes ago, Duncan said:

if you bother to read the full quotation though, because you're supposed to have read everything including this, you'll find you're wrong again, surprise surprise

Bill didn't claim that he has read "everything" about "everything".  Going from the OP, he simply stated that he has read and studied every problematic issue in Mormonism.  

He probably has.....and why should that statement be upsetting to you?  And I'm not sure when he stated that most members are still unaware of many issues,  but he most likely was correct.  There are still a great many members who don't know the details regarding Joseph's polygamy for example.  Or about his polyandry.  Or the issues with the BofA and so on.  The church leaders are at least attempting to change some of that, but I believe they could still do more.

What an odd discussion this is (and one that's already taken place numerous times on here....making a topic just about Bill Reel and then attacking him.)

Edited April 29, 2019 by ALarson

[hope_for_things]

14 hours ago, Bede said:

@DBMormon in a recent Facebook post you tell a story about a former ward member who contacted you and claimed that you “both know the truth.” While I agree with you that claiming to know what someone else believes is insensitive, your response is, in my opinion, ridiculous. 

 

 

Bill, this is such an insufferably arrogant thing to claim, and it’s not true. 

But even if it were, many people have read, studied, and even dedicated their lives to the academic study or Mormonism—in other words, far exceeding your “vast” Quinn and Vogel book collection—and yet still remain believers. 

So here is where people like you usually make excuses “well, they aren’t really believers.” That, of course, is the same arrogant take you attribute to your friend, claiming to know what others believe.

So how do you reconcile this? A pawn shop  manager who has read a bunch of Quinn and Vogel books and becomes an unbeliever vs. university professors and scholars who have dedicated their lives to these topics and still remain believers?

 

 

The problem is with respect to the terms being used.  Can a scholar prove that Mormonism is "true" using the tools of the academy?  No, and none of the reputable scholars who've devoted their lives to these topics would make such a claim.  So in that sense, Bill is correct to say that the church isn't true.  Using this same standard the church also isn't "false".   

The church isn't true or false.  It is a religious tradition, with a rich history, but it the questions of true or false from a scholarly perspective, don't apply to Mormonism any better than they apply to a political party or a government or a special interest group or an institution of higher learning.  None of those groups are "true" or "false" either.  Those are the wrong questions to apply.   

 

[HappyJackWagon]

A lesson we learned again last week from Red Hen. We need to stop feeding the trolls.

But it's soooo hard  

[The Nehor]

Yeah, well I have a PHD PLUS in Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saintology so I have read more then all of you!

[Duncan]

7 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Bill didn't claim that he has read "everything" about "everything".  Going from the OP, he simply stated that he has read and studied every problematic issue in Mormonism.  

He probably has.....and why should that statement be upsetting to you?  And I'm not sure when he stated that most members are still unaware of many issues,  but he most likely was correct.  There are still a great many members who don't know the details regarding Joseph's polygamy for example.  Or about his polyandry.  Or the issues with the BofA and so on.  The church leaders are at least attempting to change some of that, but I believe they could still do more.

What an odd discussion this is (and one that's already taken place numerous times on here....making a topic just about Bill Reel and then attacking him.)

oh yes he has

"I need you to not only hear my answer but feel it? I have read the Book of Mormon over a dozen times all the way through and have read from its pages thousands and thousands of times. I have read the new testament and old testament deeply as well. I had read and thought about the teachings on those pages so deeply and was one who pondered the scriptures continuously. I read all the correlated materials. manuals, periodicals, LDS.org. I read and studied the institute manuals. I read "Our Heritage and "truth restored", all of talmadge, Mcconkie, JFS, I read everything. I read the motivational guys like Wilcox, Millet, and so many others. Have you seen my LDS library. No doubt what so ever, I have read more faithful material than 99.9% of members as well as critical material in order to understand both sides. Are there folks who have read more. Sure but not many.” From his July FB post

If he can give it he better as sure can take it

[ALarson]

14 minutes ago, Duncan said:

"I need you to not only hear my answer but feel it? I have read the Book of Mormon over a dozen times all the way through and have read from its pages thousands and thousands of times. I have read the new testament and old testament deeply as well. I had read and thought about the teachings on those pages so deeply and was one who pondered the scriptures continuously. I read all the correlated materials. manuals, periodicals, LDS.org. I read and studied the institute manuals. I read "Our Heritage and "truth restored", all of talmadge, Mcconkie, JFS, I read everything. I read the motivational guys like Wilcox, Millet, and so many others. Have you seen my LDS library. No doubt what so ever, I have read more faithful material than 99.9% of members as well as critical material in order to understand both sides. Are there folks who have read more. Sure but not many.” From his July FB post

Are you claiming he's lying and hasn't read all that he stated he'd read?  And he's giving his opinion....so what?  He's pretty close to being right about much of it too, IMO.  He does state things to the extreme, but that's his style from what I can tell.  (And my post was regarding the quote in the OP which we now don't even know how accurate it is...).

Duncan, you really seem to have a personal grudge against Bill Reel.  Have you had a personal interaction with him in some way that has caused this?  I honestly don't get the apparent hatred and personal attacks against him (not just by you).  

Edited April 29, 2019 by ALarson

[ALarson]

14 minutes ago, Duncan said:

If he can give it he better as sure can take it

What do you even mean by that?  I've seen him come here and be very fair and open regarding discussing topics that many disagree with him on.  He's courteous (but can be blunt) and willing to discuss.

Edited April 29, 2019 by ALarson

[Duncan]

11 minutes ago, ALarson said:

What do you even mean by that?  I've seen him come here and be very fair and open regarding discussing topics that many disagree with him on.  He's courteous (but can be blunt) and willing to discuss.

that's not my experience but it's okay

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

that's not my experience but it's okay

Well I admit that I don't always see every thread.  But what I've seen is that he's a member here and does show up to discuss....especially in the numerous threads specifically about him.  He's always seemed open to discuss even when many disagree with him.

[HappyJackWagon]

Just now, Duncan said:

that's not my experience but it's okay

Regardless of what you think of him, do you find it appropriate for someone to start a thread for the sole purpose of calling out one poster and telling him how wrong he is, using a quote (incorrectly) as the launching pad for a personal attack?

I don't.

I don't like it when it's done to Bill. I wouldn't like it if it was done to Duncan. It just seems low class for a troll like Bede to come in and stir the pot with no apparent intention other than tearing someone else down.

Quote

   11 hours ago, Bede said:

I posted that while on my phone and didn’t get the quote right. Let’s not quibble over it    

57 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Wow.  Seriously?

Let's not quibble, but let's pile on and condemn him for saying something he didn't say?

I 2nd your WOW!

Let's start an entire thread to attack someone's quote, and then get the quote wrong. Trolls are the worst

[Duncan]

14 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Are you claiming he's lying and hasn't read all that he stated he'd read?  And he's giving his opinion....so what?  He's pretty close to being right about much of it too, IMO.  He does state things to the extreme, but that's his style from what I can tell.  (And my post was regarding the quote in the OP which we now don't even know how accurate it is...).

Duncan, you really seem to have a personal grudge against Bill Reel.  Have you had a personal interaction with him in some way that has caused this?  I honestly don't get the apparent hatred and personal attacks against him (not just by you).  

I'm saying that he's lying, he hasn't read all that and claim to "deeply" understand it. He's tried to be the next John Dehlin or exmo of the week deal by setting himself up as some big light to the world and the only conclusion one can come to is the Church is wrong. The Ego on this guy is outrageous and look at where it's gotten him? exed from the Church, stupid statements like he's read everything and understand's everything? Whatever.  I think the history of the Church deserves better than the likes of Bill Reel. What would he have if not for this exmo stuff? Nothing, some chump working in a pawn store that nobody takes seriously so he needs this to exalt himself. He needs therapy more than a blog

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Regardless of what you think of him, do you find it appropriate for someone to start a thread for the sole purpose of calling out one poster and telling him how wrong he is, using a quote (incorrectly) as the launching pad for a personal attack?

I don't.

I don't like it when it's done to Bill. I wouldn't like it if it was done to Duncan. It just seems low class for a troll like Bede to come in and stir the pot with no apparent intention other than tearing someone else down.

I 2nd your WOW!

Let's start an entire thread to attack someone's quote, and then get the quote wrong. Trolls are the worst

tell the mods to shut it down 

[ALarson]

Just now, Duncan said:

tell the mods to shut it down 

Maybe it can disappear just like TheRedHen's thread did? 😉

[HappyJackWagon]

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

tell the mods to shut it down 

You must think me more powerful than I am

I can't tell anyone to do anything. I can only appeal to good people not to engage in bad behavior and hope they choose not to fall victim to trolls

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I'm saying that he's lying, he hasn't read all that and claim to "deeply" understand it.

Come on Duncan....now you're calling him an liar?

4 minutes ago, Duncan said:

He's tried to be the next John Dehlin or exmo of the week deal by setting himself up as some big light to the world and the only conclusion one can come to is the Church is wrong. The Ego on this guy is outrageous and look at where it's gotten him? exed from the Church, stupid statements like he's read everything and understand's everything? Whatever.  I think the history of the Church deserves better than the likes of Bill Reel. What would he have if not for this exmo stuff? Nothing, some chump working in a pawn store that nobody takes seriously so he needs this to exalt himself. He needs therapy more than a blog

More personal attacks?  This really isn't like you, Duncan (from what I've seen on here).

If he bothers you this much maybe just ignore him.  Threads like this one just give him more attention and most likely cause more to seek him out and read his blog.

Edited April 29, 2019 by ALarson