Church announcing details of SL Temple, Temple Square renovations

[Scott Lloyd]

On 4/23/2019 at 11:35 AM, MiserereNobis said:

But the problem with this, as I pointed out in my earlier response, is that he didn't call the LDS church the leading faith. He called both the LDS church and the Catholic church leadings faiths. That means if you interpret the LDS church as a leading faith because it is led by Christ, then you also have to grant the same to the Catholic church, since it was also called, in the same breath, a leading faith.

And if you suggest that "leading faith" means led by Christ when applied to the LDS church and "leading faith" means overall total numbers when applied to the Catholic church, then you are using the logical fallacy of equivocation since they are both called leading in the same sentence without any clarification. A person who make such a statement, using two different definitions of a word within the same sentence, would be quite deceptive.

No, the clear interpretation is that the person who said it believes that the LDS church is on the same playing field as the Catholic church.

 

On 4/23/2019 at 2:35 PM, Calm said:

"Leading" is given, imo, as being significant, but what is that significance is not specified.  It could be leading by giving teachings of great spiritual value to the world, whether or not the world chooses to hear it.

Or it could pertain to global influence, which doesn’t necessarily refer to numbers. 

Edited April 25, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

Or it could refer to global influence, which doesn’t necessarily refer to numbers. 

The precise extent of that influence can be argued, but I think it's fairly clear that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints exercises an outsized influence in many areas of the world and in many arenas or disciplines which belies its smaller numbers, relatively speaking.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

The precise extent of that influence can be argued, but I think it's fairly clear that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints exercises an outsized influence in many areas of the world and in many arenas or disciplines which belies its smaller numbers, relatively speaking.

For a comparable example, we need only look at Judaism. There are about 15 million Jews in the world — just slightly more than there are Latter-day Saints. Yet look at the global influence they exert. And only a portion of them adhere to their religious faith. 

[Kenngo1969]

11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

For a comparable example, we need only look at Judaism. There are about 15 million Jews in the world — just slightly more than there are Latter-day Saints. Yet look at the global influence they exert. And only a portion of them adhere to their religious faith. 

I'm ruing having given you the rep point I gave you, Scott, because that means that your response to my post now has more rep points than my post itself.  That seems ... unfair.

[MiserereNobis]

16 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

think it's fairly clear that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints exercises an outsized influence in many areas of the world and in many arenas or disciplines which belies its smaller numbers, relatively speaking.

Can you give some specific examples?

[MiserereNobis]

15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

For a comparable example, we need only look at Judaism. There are about 15 million Jews in the world — just slightly more than there are Latter-day Saints. Yet look at the global influence they exert. And only a portion of them adhere to their religious faith. 

I don't think the comparison works. Judaism might have the same numbers as the LDS church, but it has way more history and global influence. It's been around 3000+ years to your 200. It has its own country. And perhaps most importantly as far as global influence goes, it is the mother religion of Christianity, so it influenced Christianity which influenced the world. All Christians know Jewish scripture. None of that can be said about LDS.

It's a stretch beyond credulity to call LDS a leading faith in the same way as Catholicism. This is not a criticism of the LDS faith, nor an endorsement of Catholicism. Hinduism is a leading faith and I do not endorse it. It is just a statement of the way things are.

I have advocated that you turn Salt Lake City into the LDS version of Vatican City. Then you'd have your own country  

[thelittlebravetoaster]

To make the temple earthquake-proof. They have a huge archive underground.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I don't think the comparison works. Judaism might have the same numbers as the LDS church, but it has way more history and global influence. It's been around 3000+ years to your 200. It has its own country. And perhaps most importantly as far as global influence goes, it is the mother religion of Christianity, so it influenced Christianity which influenced the world. All Christians know Jewish scripture. None of that can be said about LDS.

It's a stretch beyond credulity to call LDS a leading faith in the same way as Catholicism. This is not a criticism of the LDS faith, nor an endorsement of Catholicism. Hinduism is a leading faith and I do not endorse it. It is just a statement of the way things are.

I have advocated that you turn Salt Lake City into the LDS version of Vatican City. Then you'd have your own country  

The Latter-day Saint faith has been influential in the effort to preserve traditional moral virtues and religious liberty in the face of a rapidly changing cultural landscape that in significant ways is casting such virtues aside. Alas, even more than the Church’s theological distinctions, that is the thing that has drawn fire in recent times. 

Furthermore, the Church of Jesus Christ is the undisputed world leader in the preservation of and access to genealogical records and family histories. This is a more significant thing than some may realize, as family history creates bonds across cultures and generations and fosters a wholesome self concept among young people. 

Edited April 25, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[USU78]

21 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I don't think the comparison works. Judaism might have the same numbers as the LDS church, but it has way more history and global influence. It's been around 3000+ years to your 200. It has its own country. And perhaps most importantly as far as global influence goes, it is the mother religion of Christianity, so it influenced Christianity which influenced the world. All Christians know Jewish scripture. None of that can be said about LDS.

It's a stretch beyond credulity to call LDS a leading faith in the same way as Catholicism. This is not a criticism of the LDS faith, nor an endorsement of Catholicism. Hinduism is a leading faith and I do not endorse it. It is just a statement of the way things are.

I have advocated that you turn Salt Lake City into the LDS version of Vatican City. Then you'd have your own country  

Swiss Guards on South Temple.

The mind boggles.

[Scott Lloyd]

33 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Swiss Guards on South Temple.

The mind boggles.

We have them, but they’re much more unobtrusive: Church Security. 

[Kenngo1969]

23 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Can you give some specific examples?

I respect you immensely, but that doesn't feel like an invitation to good-faith discussion (which could be less about anything you've said and more about my perception, I admit) so I think I'll decline your very kind invitation.  Thanks.

[Scott Lloyd]

15 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I respect you immensely, but that doesn't feel like an invitation to good-faith discussion (which could be less about anything you've said and more about my perception, I admit) so I think I'll decline your very kind invitation.  Thanks.

I sympathize with Ken’s well-worded post here. 

That said, I did provide a couple of specific examples in an above post which I feel are of no small moment. 

Edited April 26, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I respect you immensely, but that doesn't feel like an invitation to good-faith discussion (which could be less about anything you've said and more about my perception, I admit) so I think I'll decline your very kind invitation.  Thanks.

 

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I sympathize with Ken’s well-worded post here. 

That said, I did provide a couple of specific examples in an above post which I feel are of no small moment. 

Ok, let's just agree to disagree then. No intentional bad faith on my part, but maybe my own incredulity at the claim is getting in the way.

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

 

Ok, let's just agree to disagree then. No intentional bad faith on my part, but maybe my own incredulity at the claim is getting in the way.

[Sigh].  I'm probably a glutton for punishment here, but one example I can think of off of the top of my head (and I don't have any numbers, yet, to back it up, so sue me! ) is the number of graduates of J. Reuben Clark Law School at Brigham Young University who have clerked for Supreme Court Justices.  I'm sure someone would say, "Well, it's not like BYU is Harvard, or anything."  Nope.  BYU isn't Harvard.  BYU-JRCLS is a very young law school.  (Of course, pretty much all law schools are young, compared to Harvard.)  Yet BYU-JRCLS "punches far above its weight class" when it comes to preparing students for, and placing students in, Supreme Court and other prestigious clerkships.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Kenngo1969

[MiserereNobis]

2 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

[Sigh].  I'm probably a glutton for punishment here, but one example I can think of off of the top of my head (and I don't have any numbers, yet, to back it up, so sue me! ) is the number of graduates of J. Reuben Clark Law School at Brigham Young University who have clerked for Supreme Court Justices.

I sincerely meant that we should drop the conversation if both you and Scott were feeling that it wasn't going to be productive. I can see why you might both feel that way. And if I'm going to sue you, I'll get someone from BYU's law school to be my attorney. How's that for LDS influence  

[USU78]

23 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I sincerely meant that we should drop the conversation if both you and Scott were feeling that it wasn't going to be productive. I can see why you might both feel that way. And if I'm going to sue you, I'll get someone from BYU's law school to be my attorney. How's that for LDS influence  

Typical.  Catholic parochial school boys and Mormon parochial school boys sticking together to stick it to the Aggies.

Sheesh.

[member10_1]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I sympathize with Ken’s well-worded post here. 

That said, I did provide a couple of specific examples in an above post which I feel are of no small moment. 

 

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

[Sigh].  I'm probably a glutton for punishment here, but one example I can think of off of the top of my head (and I don't have any numbers, yet, to back it up, so sue me! ) is the number of graduates of J. Reuben Clark Law School at Brigham Young University who have clerked for Supreme Court Justices.  I'm sure someone would say, "Well, it's not like BYU is Harvard, or anything."  Nope.  BYU isn't Harvard.  BYU-JRCLS is a very young law school.  (Of course, pretty much all law schools are young, compared to Harvard.)  Yet BYU-JRCLS "punches far above its weight class" when it comes to preparing students for, and placing students in, Supreme Court and other prestigious clerkships.

Perhaps an analogy will help clarify my disagreement with the original quote by the Area Seventy. I work for a company with operations on every continent except Antarctica. We are a leader in our industry. There is, however, no meaningful comparison between us and Apple or Google or Amazon. Not because we operate in different sectors, not because we fail to provide value to the market, but because the size and scope of our business is trivial relative to those leaders. No executive in our company would think to draw a comparison. 

Yes, the Church has influence. Yes, the Church is a leader. But there is no meaningful comparison to the size and scope of the Catholic Church. Drawing the comparison is absurd. Thinking that renovations to a couple of city blocks will contribute to SLC being the next Jerusalem or Vatican is just naive. We are in the noise. Perhaps we can reassess in 500-1,000 years. 

 

Edited April 26, 2019 by member10_1

[Storm Rider]

4 hours ago, member10_1 said:

Perhaps an analogy will help clarify my disagreement with the original quote by the Area Seventy. I work for a company with operations on every continent except Antarctica. We are a leader in our industry. There is, however, no meaningful comparison between us and Apple or Google or Amazon. Not because we operate in different sectors, not because we fail to provide value to the market, but because the size and scope of our business is trivial relative to those leaders. No executive in our company would think to draw a comparison. 

Yes, the Church has influence. Yes, the Church is a leader. But there is no meaningful comparison to the size and scope of the Catholic Church. Drawing the comparison is absurd. Thinking that renovations to a couple of city blocks will contribute to SLC being the next Jerusalem or Vatican is just naive. We are in the noise. Perhaps we can reassess in 500-1,000 years. 

It is without question that the Church and its affiliates have had an impact on the world in general. Its accomplishments in genealogy alone are significant. However, the above post is more in line with my thinking. I just don't see a comparison between the impact of the Catholic Church and that of TCFCLDS to be valid as far as being equivalent. In acknowledging a far greater impact of the RC does in no way diminish the accomplishments or impact of the Church. We are a church that has operated for some 200 years and the RC has been at it for a couple thousand years. 

These types of comparisons are not helpful because they tend to divide us rather than celebrate the accomplishments and impacts of both. 

Edited April 27, 2019 by Storm Rider

[6EQUJ5]

On 4/25/2019 at 12:35 PM, MiserereNobis said:

Can you give some specific examples?

Its generally more in the US.  But Mormons are overrepresented in Business leadership, congress, politics in general, instagram family influencers, family vloggers, etc....  They are more educated than the general population.  They live longer.  They make more money.

IMO, this is simply the product of being part of a tightly-knit community that polices itself and enforces high standards in terms of education, public engagement, etc.

There is a book called Tiger Mom or something that talks about this phenonenom among american Chinese, Jewish, and Mormon people.

Edited April 27, 2019 by 6EQUJ5

[6EQUJ5]

On 4/24/2019 at 7:56 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

The precise extent of that influence can be argued, but I think it's fairly clear that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints exercises an outsized influence in many areas of the world and in many arenas or disciplines which belies its smaller numbers, relatively speaking.

I think "the world" is a stretch.  But in "the United States and Canada" would be very accurate.

[Kenngo1969]

20 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

I think "the world" is a stretch.  But in "the United States and Canada" would be very accurate.

On the contrary.  On the African continent, as well, the influence of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints outstrips its sheer numbers.  See, e.g.,   https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/02/yeah-samake-the-mormon-candidate-for-president-of-mali.html

[6EQUJ5]

3 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

On the contrary.  On the African continent, as well, the influence of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints outstrips its sheer numbers.  See, e.g.,   https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/02/yeah-samake-the-mormon-candidate-for-president-of-mali.html

Africa and North America are not "the world" though, right?

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

... I just don't see a comparison between the impact of the Catholic Church and that of TCFCLDS to be valid as far as being equivalent. ...

Sigh.  Did I argue that the influence of the respective faiths is equivalent?  Did Elder Dini-Ciacci?  

[Kenngo1969]

5 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

Africa and North America are not "the world" though, right?

Fine.  Just keep on moving the goalposts.  You said that the outsized influence it wields in proportion to its numbers is confined to the United States and Canada.  In response, I then pointed to an example from elsewhere in the world. In truth, because of rising secularism in the U.S., Canada, and Europe, the influence of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is probably increasing faster in inverse proportion to its sparse numbers elsewhere in the world.  This is exactly what I knew would happen if I got drawn into this debate.  You all should become Roman Catholics, then. I'm out.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Kenngo1969

[6EQUJ5]

5 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Fine.  Just keep on moving the goalposts.  You said that the outsized influence it wields in proportion to its numbers is confined to the United States and Canada.  In response, I then pointed to an example from elsewhere in the world. In truth, because of rising secularism in the U.S., Canada, and Europe, the influence of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is probably increasing faster in inverse proportion to its sparse numbers elsewhere in the world.  This is exactly what I knew would happen if I got drawn into this debate.  You all should become Roman Catholics, then. I'm out.

And really only a very small portion of Africa at that.

Compared to Catholics providing services in nearly every country in the world.  But sure. Our Church is just like the Catholics in terms of influence.  LOL