changed Posted October 27, 2018 Posted October 27, 2018 19 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: OK. That’s one way to look at it. I prefer this way... “2 Nephi 2:27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself. 28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit; 29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.” all things?... "expedient" - interesting choice of word... ex·pe·di·ent /ikˈspēdēənt/ adjective 1. (of an action) convenient and practical although possibly improper or immoral: "either side could break the agreement if it were expedient to do so" noun 1. a means of attaining an end, especially one that is convenient but considered improper or immoral: "the current policy is a political expedient"
Calm Posted October 27, 2018 Posted October 27, 2018 Best to use the 1828 dictionary for the BoM, connotations often change over that much time even if the core of the definition remains the same. http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Expedient 1
CV75 Posted October 28, 2018 Posted October 28, 2018 (edited) @Bernard Gui Maybe I can clarify my thinking a bit better: The Father gives His children to Jesus in various ways. First, as part of Jesus’ stewardship pre-mortally which follows into the mortal estate wherein His universal atonement raises all from the grave. In mortality, the Father also gave Him another cut: the peoples who followed Him with intent and choice, who are those to whom He gave the Holy Ghost by covenant. These are the sheep. They include the righteous peoples of the patriarchs, the people of Enoch, Israel, those remnants He led away into promised lands, Jews and gentiles who followed Him during and after His mortal mission (His sheep and His other sheep), the righteous saints today, etc. In the spirit world, He gives Jesus those who repent and receive Him. The common thread of all mankind is the resurrection. The common thread for all who receive exaltation is their maintenance of the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, which the Father gives to the faithful. In the scriptures, Jesus refers to any and all of these as those the Father has given Him, depending on what He is saying, and sometimes what He says can be applied at various levels. While the Father gives Jesus all these children, Jesus keeps only those who are true and faithful to Him, hence some dwell with Him and the Father, and some go into other kingdoms of glory. The Father gave Jesus all His children to judge after having given them the Holy Ghost, or the option to have the Holy Ghost. Edited October 28, 2018 by CV75
Bernard Gui Posted October 28, 2018 Author Posted October 28, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, changed said: all things?... "expedient" - interesting choice of word... ex·pe·di·ent /ikˈspēdēənt/ adjective 1. (of an action) convenient and practical although possibly improper or immoral: "either side could break the agreement if it were expedient to do so" noun 1. a means of attaining an end, especially one that is convenient but considered improper or immoral: "the current policy is a political expedient" I see Calm beat me to the punch, but I'll post the Websters 1828 definition for "expedient" so you can examine it yourself. It seems to fit the context of the scripture quite well without the negatory stuff you propose. This is how I have always understood this scripture. Do you wish to reconsider? Quote Expedient EXPE'DIENT, adjective [Latin expediens; expedio, to hasten; Eng. speed.] 1. Literally, hastening; urging forward. Hence, tending to promote the object proposed; fit or suitable for the purpose; proper under the circumstances. Many things may be lawful, which are not expedient 2. Useful; profitable. 3. Quick; expeditious. [Not used.] EXPE'DIENT, noun That which serves to promote or advance; any means which may be employed to accomplish an end. Let every expedient be employed to effect an important object, nor let exertions cease till all expedients fail of producing the effect. 1. Shift; means devised or employed in an exigency Edited October 28, 2018 by Bernard Gui
Bernard Gui Posted October 28, 2018 Author Posted October 28, 2018 2 hours ago, CV75 said: @Bernard Gui Maybe I can clarify my thinking a bit better: The Father gives His children to Jesus in various ways. First, as part of Jesus’ stewardship pre-mortally which follows into the mortal estate wherein His universal atonement raises all from the grave. In mortality, the Father also gave Him another cut: the peoples who followed Him with intent and choice, who are those to whom He gave the Holy Ghost by covenant. These are the sheep. They include the righteous peoples of the patriarchs, the people of Enoch, Israel, those remnants He led away into promised lands, Jews and gentiles who followed Him during and after His mortal mission (His sheep and His other sheep), the righteous saints today, etc. In the spirit world, He gives Jesus those who repent and receive Him. The common thread of all mankind is the resurrection. The common thread for all who receive exaltation is their maintenance of the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, which the Father gives to the faithful. In the scriptures, Jesus refers to any and all of these as those the Father has given Him, depending on what He is saying, and sometimes what He says can be applied at various levels. While the Father gives Jesus all these children, Jesus keeps only those who are true and faithful to Him, hence some dwell with Him and the Father, and some go into other kingdoms of glory. The Father gave Jesus all His children to judge after having given them the Holy Ghost, or the option to have the Holy Ghost. Thank you. I really like this thoughtful response.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 28, 2018 Posted October 28, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, changed said: Quote On 10/26/2018 at 10:18 PM, Bernard Gui said: Jesus said the gate is strait and the way is narrow and only a few will find it. What do you think that means? It means God is not a very good teacher, and does not really love everyone... that "together forever" is a lie...that heaven is pointless... what do you interpret it to mean? Does anyone here honestly see anything beautiful in the idea that "only a few" will be saved? I find it repulsive. Is that the summation of what Christianity means to you? Is that in fact what Jesus taught? Or is that your view of the LDS Articles of Faith? Can't quite figure what you are saying here. Doesn't make any sense. Edited October 28, 2018 by Robert F. Smith
changed Posted October 28, 2018 Posted October 28, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Is that the summation of what Christianity means to you? Is that in fact what Jesus taught? Or is that your view of the LDS Articles of Faith? Can't quite figure what you are saying here. Doesn't make any sense. I cannot quite figure out who the "little" flock is, who is "given" to Jesus, and why the rest of humanity is left in darkness. God has a really really low student success rate according to the scriptures, and sorry - but that is not "free will", that is a bad teacher. I would never be happy in heaven if everyone was not there with me - I want no part in any prideful hierarchical eternal caste system - want no part in it at all. I am not one of the "chosen" people you see, I am one of those who God hates.... want to hear my patriarchal blessing? it says "I was tested at a young age, and will be tested my entire life..." want to know what those tests are? sick sick sick - not a trial, a "test". This is not refining, I hate God - he sent me crap to make sure I hate him. Those goodie-two-shoes who live a perfect life - the "special" ones that God likes? I suppose they would rather not see the rest of us... I suppose those tests when I was "young", I suppose that was my own fault, my own free will - I will be in outer darkness because I am a sinner - fine, that is what everyone wants to think, then fine... enjoy heaven... Edited October 28, 2018 by changed
CV75 Posted October 28, 2018 Posted October 28, 2018 15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Thank you. I really like this thoughtful response. Thank you, but if I'm not getting to the point let me know as I am always game for learning something better
Robert F. Smith Posted October 28, 2018 Posted October 28, 2018 6 hours ago, changed said: I cannot quite figure out who the "little" flock is, who is "given" to Jesus, and why the rest of humanity is left in darkness. God has a really really low student success rate according to the scriptures, and sorry - but that is not "free will", that is a bad teacher. I would never be happy in heaven if everyone was not there with me - I want no part in any prideful hierarchical eternal caste system - want no part in it at all. I am not one of the "chosen" people you see, I am one of those who God hates.... want to hear my patriarchal blessing? it says "I was tested at a young age, and will be tested my entire life..." want to know what those tests are? sick sick sick - not a trial, a "test". This is not refining, I hate God - he sent me crap to make sure I hate him. Those goodie-two-shoes who live a perfect life - the "special" ones that God likes? I suppose they would rather not see the rest of us... I suppose those tests when I was "young", I suppose that was my own fault, my own free will - I will be in outer darkness because I am a sinner - fine, that is what everyone wants to think, then fine... enjoy heaven... So that is what "everyone" thinks? Or are you targeting a specific group? In other words, are you angry that God chose the Israelites as his special people? He chose them, not because they were great in number, but because they were few in number. Would you be happier if he had chosen a much larger population group? Say China? Now, of course, you fail to mention that the blessing and covenant of Abraham was that through him and his descendants all the people of the Earth would be blessed. In your blind anger, you bore false witness that God was only interested in a small group, -- conveniently forgetting that God blessed everyone through his Son as a human sacrifice for all sin. An infinite atonement. He only chose certain people to carry his message to all mankind. No one is left out. Why? John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.." In your blind rage, you have borne false witness about what God is in fact doing. Why? You might try reading the Bible and attempt to understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Why does Gospel mean "good news"?
Calm Posted October 29, 2018 Posted October 29, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, changed said: . I would never be happy in heaven if everyone was not there with me - I want no part in any prideful hierarchical eternal caste system - want no part in it at all When my brother got married, the last thing in the world I wanted to do was travel up to Oregon and have to dress up and act friendly to people I knew little to nothing about. My parents insisted I had to and I went, dressed up, took care of the guest book and smiled at everyone there. Stood in the group pictures. I am certain my parents were very happy I and the rest of my family was there, being a part of my brother's big day. I hated every minute. I don't insist my kids participate in things they had reasonable reasons, including just explaining they would be uncomfortable, not to participate in even if I miss them being there. I feel good I have given them a choice. I would not be happy knowing they were there, but only pretending to enjoy it so others wouldn't feel bad. Am I wrong? Would it be appropriate to tell my daughter I refuse to go to family reunions unless she comes with me? To me, that is emotional blackmail. Edited October 29, 2018 by Calm
changed Posted October 29, 2018 Posted October 29, 2018 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: So that is what "everyone" thinks? Or are you targeting a specific group? In other words, are you angry that God chose the Israelites as his special people? He chose them, not because they were great in number, but because they were few in number. Would you be happier if he had chosen a much larger population group? Say China? Now, of course, you fail to mention that the blessing and covenant of Abraham was that through him and his descendants all the people of the Earth would be blessed. In your blind anger, you bore false witness that God was only interested in a small group, -- conveniently forgetting that God blessed everyone through his Son as a human sacrifice for all sin. An infinite atonement. He only chose certain people to carry his message to all mankind. No one is left out. Why? John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.." In your blind rage, you have borne false witness about what God is in fact doing. Why? You might try reading the Bible and attempt to understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Why does Gospel mean "good news"? everyone... those who believe they are "special and chosen" - those who believe they are better than everyone else... and those who believe they are "cursed and hated"... What percentage of humanity - from cavemen on up - do you believe will be "saved"? Do you believe "few will be chosen"? What responsibility do you believe God has towards every last man woman and child on this earth to "train and teach a child in the way they should go so that when they are older they will not depart...?
Robert F. Smith Posted October 29, 2018 Posted October 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, changed said: everyone.. Yes. Everyone. Who told you different? 2 minutes ago, changed said: . those who believe they are "special and chosen" - those who believe they are better than everyone else... The smug and selfish Zoramites are wrong, and so are you. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is for all, not just a few. Did you bother to read the Good Book? 2 minutes ago, changed said: and those who believe they are "cursed and hated"... What percentage of humanity - from cavemen on up - do you believe will be "saved"? Do you believe "few will be chosen"? What responsibility do you believe God has towards every last man woman and child on this earth to "train and teach a child in the way they should go so that when they are older they will not depart...? Virtually everyone is saved by the grace of God. Even you who say that you hate God. Why? Because God knows that you speak from ignorance and hate.
changed Posted October 29, 2018 Posted October 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Calm said: When my brother got married, the last thing in the world I wanted to do was travel up to Oregon and have to dress up and act friendly to people I knew little to nothing about. My parents insisted I had to and I went, dressed up, took care of the guest book and smiled at everyone there. Stood in the group pictures. I am certain my parents were very happy I and the rest of my family was there, being a part of my brother's big day. I hated every minute. I don't insist my kids participate in things they had reasonable reasons, including just explaining they would be uncomfortable, not to participate in even if I miss them being there. I feel good I have given them a choice. I would not be happy knowing they were there, but only pretending to enjoy it so others wouldn't feel bad. Am I wrong? Would it be appropriate to tell my daughter I refuse to go to family reunions unless she comes with me? To me, that is emotional blackmail. I agree - allow everyone to come and go as they please - do not exclude anyone from coming if they are so inclined.
changed Posted October 29, 2018 Posted October 29, 2018 24 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yes. Everyone. Who told you different? The smug and selfish Zoramites are wrong, and so are you. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is for all, not just a few. Did you bother to read the Good Book? Virtually everyone is saved by the grace of God. Even you who say that you hate God. Why? Because God knows that you speak from ignorance and hate. If everyone is saved - then great, I am part of "everyone". If it is just a small little flock, then I am not interested in it.
Calm Posted October 29, 2018 Posted October 29, 2018 5 minutes ago, changed said: I agree - allow everyone to come and go as they please - do not exclude anyone from coming if they are so inclined. And if someone never wants to come?
changed Posted October 29, 2018 Posted October 29, 2018 8 minutes ago, Calm said: And if someone never wants to come? I agree - come and go as anyone wants. Do you believe that God does not exclude anyone? Do you believe in "unconditional" love? or are there conditions - only allowed in if you have shoes and shirt sort of a deal?
Calm Posted October 29, 2018 Posted October 29, 2018 (edited) 34 minutes ago, changed said: I agree - come and go as anyone wants. Do you believe that God does not exclude anyone? Do you believe in "unconditional" love? or are there conditions - only allowed in if you have shoes and shirt sort of a deal? I believe the only reason people are excluded is because they don't want to be with God in his full glory. The conditions are there because of the type of people who are there. Think of it like a group of highly educated mathematicians having discussions about math most of us can't understand. How many of us would want to hang around listening to something we can't understand? Do we insist they dumb down their conversation, not live to their full potential so we can feel more comfortable or do we accept that this is a conversation we are not prepared for and let them enjoy their work rather than shame them into turning their back on it? And if it is about choice where unlike in mortality where there are limits on us we cannot do anything about (wishing or working as hard as we can won't turn most of us into high end mathematicians), if we truly desire to be fully part of God's family, we can be, why would it be wrong to allow those who want to be with God to do so and those who don't at all or only want to engage in some ways with God, live the way they choose to? If shoes and shirt is not an arbitrary fashion thing, but required for safety (think hardhats in construction sites or shoes for lawn mowing) or better enjoyment of the experience (say a rocky beach with burning sun, constantly being in pain from stepping on cutting or hot rocks and getting sunburn destroys any enjoyment) is God wrong to create an environment that people can only be comfortable with shoes and shirt, but if they have them it will be a magnificent experience? Edited October 29, 2018 by Calm
changed Posted October 29, 2018 Posted October 29, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Calm said: I believe the only reason people are excluded is because they don't want to be with God in his full glory. The conditions are there because of the type of people who are there. Think of it like a group of highly educated mathematicians having discussions about math most of us can't understand. How many of us would want to hang around listening to something we can't understand? Do we insist they dumb down their conversation, not live to their full potential so we can feel more comfortable or do we accept that this is a conversation we are not prepared for and let them enjoy their work rather than shame them into turning their back on it? And if it is about choice where unlike in mortality where there are limits on us we cannot do anything about (wishing or working as hard as we can won't turn most of us into high end mathematicians), if we truly desire to be fully part of God's family, we can be, why would it be wrong to allow those who want to be with God to do so and those who don't at all or only want to engage in some ways with God, live the way they choose to? If shoes and shirt is not an arbitrary fashion thing, but required for safety (think hardhats in construction sites or shoes for lawn mowing) or better enjoyment of the experience (say a rocky beach with burning sun, constantly being in pain from stepping on cutting or hot rocks and getting sunburn destroys any enjoyment) is God wrong to create an environment that people can only be comfortable with shoes and shirt, but if they have them it will be a magnificent experience? In the eternal perspective of things, we will all come to be experts in everything - an eternity to learn how to play musical instruments, an eternity to learn the laws of nature, an eternity to refine the liberal arts. Anything that brings real joy brings it to everyone - it is the nature of life to laugh, love, create, progress. If it is something that is really and truly good, everyone will want it. If it is not something that is really and truly good, only "a few there be" who will want it. .... I see quite a few who do this, justify why refugees, why starving children in other countries, why war torn areas - do not need help or inclusion... the justification goes something like this: "they don't want to be helped, they are fine where they are, they are happy don't you see?? don't worry - no one is tried beyond their strength, they are living that horrible life because that is what they need to be refined...they chose their life" (really, they chose to be born into poverty? they chose abuse??? really??? it is all just free agency??) these are the things people tell themselves so they do not feel bad about others. Most of the world is not happy - not comfortable. Creating a fairy tale that rationalizes someone's inability to help, someone's refusal to help - "I do not need to help or feel bad for them, they are happy where they are..." - that is a lie, don't you see it? Peopled line up for things that are good... The number of people lined up at the door is proportional to how good it is. Edited October 29, 2018 by changed
changed Posted October 29, 2018 Posted October 29, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Virtually everyone is saved by the grace of God. If everyone actually believed this, there would be no reason to have started this "Who Does the Father Give to Jesus?" thread... who are the "lucky few"... who are the 144,000...? Edited October 29, 2018 by changed
JLHPROF Posted October 29, 2018 Posted October 29, 2018 57 minutes ago, changed said: If everyone actually believed this, there would be no reason to have started this "Who Does the Father Give to Jesus?" thread... who are the "lucky few"... who are the 144,000...? The ones who will do the work, put forth the effort, and endure the refining fire. The ones who receive not only the salvation by grace but exaltation by obedience. 1
RevTestament Posted October 29, 2018 Posted October 29, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, changed said: I agree - come and go as anyone wants. Do you believe that God does not exclude anyone? Do you believe in "unconditional" love? or are there conditions - only allowed in if you have shoes and shirt sort of a deal? If there are no conditions, why are we here? Why do we come here and get exposed to so much evil (hint see Gen 3:22)? If God saves everybody, what is the purpose of sending His Son at all? These are questions I grappled with when trying to understand the atonement. Is God's love really unconditional? Or is there a condition for salvation? "For God so loved the world..." The restored gospel is the most universal gospel I know of. It gives mankind the most chances to be saved from their sins. Some however, take more convincing to humble themselves to receive it. If one waits to the very last minute to get resurrected, and then believe and repent when they see Jesus at the last judgment, why should He make them His judges? They don't sound like they would be very faithful. Matthew 19:28 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the aregeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, bjudging the twelve tribes of Israel. Why does God choose certain people to be His prophets? Could they be the few who follow the path which leads to life without all kinds of redirection to keep them on the path? Could they be the few that are chosen? If so, does that mean the rest who they lead are not saved? If so, why choose prophets to teach doomed people? Is salvation from sin really the ultimate reward or do we receive according to our works? Are there different levels of being saved from hell? What I mean by that is there just a little salvation from Hell? How does one get saved from Hell "a little?' I thought the punishment for all sin was death. How does one get just "a little death?" Are there many rooms in the Father's house? If so, why? Yeshua doesn't make it sound like one great and spacious building. In light of these things I don't think it is very appropriate to confuse salvation with being chosen or "elect" like Protestantism sometimes does. Just some thoughts as to why some may endure more than others. Nor do I believe God imposed all your trials or all the evils you have experienced on you. But if you endure them well, I do believe He has all the more reason to be pleased with you. The thing about being angry is that it is a selfish emotion, and blocks progress. I have been angry at God too. I felt I have done everything right, but yet I get the low end of the stick. Herein lies the parable of Job. Again and again, Satan got to try Job, but rather than getting angry, Job praised God who allowed it. A lot of life is learning to overcome the evils in the world, and learning how to help others overcome them. Only then can we lock up Satan in the millennium that He have no power. I am not being insensitive Changed. I know your pain and anguish. They are not God's fault. They are due to the faults of men and the adversary who uses those faults to stir up anger and contention. Forgiveness, and life in Yeshua is the way out of that trap, and the way to happiness. Don't worry about who gets chosen. That is really irrelevant to you. Be glad there is a way out and a path to salvation. That is the good news of the gospel. Edited October 29, 2018 by RevTestament
Calm Posted October 29, 2018 Posted October 29, 2018 Quote If it is something that is really and truly good, everyone will want it. If this is true, then you need have no concerns as people will be given the opportunity to receive what they truly want. However, this is an assumption that may not be true. Certainly it isn't true in mortality. I remember watching a program of an experiment where for an extended time volunteers lived a very healthy lifestyle (others prepared their food) and all participants felt much better at the end of it and medical tests demonstrated significant improvements. As a reward they were able to choose their last meal, one based on the principles of what they were taught or an all out junk food type. Many chose the junk food, they still desired that food even knowing it had been making them sick/weaker/unhappy.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 29, 2018 Posted October 29, 2018 7 hours ago, changed said: If everyone actually believed this, there would be no reason to have started this "Who Does the Father Give to Jesus?" thread... who are the "lucky few"... who are the 144,000...? You manage to cough up nearly every possible fallacy connected with belief or disbelief. A simple matter of selection of personnel to do a particular task is taken as death-dealing favoritism, when it is really only administrative management. Why do you read more into it than is actually there? God does not favor his high priest at the temple in Jerusalem over a simple, poor Israelite coming to offer a pigeon as a sacrifice -- because that is the best he can afford; God does not distinguish one more righteous than the other. Why do you always take the position of Lucifer in these discussions?
Robert F. Smith Posted October 29, 2018 Posted October 29, 2018 On 10/28/2018 at 8:51 PM, changed said: If everyone is saved - then great, I am part of "everyone". If it is just a small little flock, then I am not interested in it. It would help a lot if you could stop spreading hatred, ignorance, and falsehood. The Gospel of Jesus Christ would be a helpful change for you. @Robert F. Smith stop getting personal.
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