Bernard Gui Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 While explaining why he did not explicitly reveal the existence of the Nephites to the Jews in Jerusalem, Jesus told the Nephites they were the “other sheep” that would hear his voice and be brought into his fold. He said, Quote But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me. And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister. For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them. But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them. 3 Nephi 15:8 - 16:3 What do you think “those who the Father hath given me” means? (I’m not asking who those other sheep might be, although it is interesting to speculate. It appears thst they also were given to Jesus by the Father.)
halconero Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 It's possible that those who are baptized are considered those who belong to Christ. It's also possible that's just the start on a process to belong to him. See the references below regarding becoming a Child of Christ: Mosiah 5: 7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the achildren of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are bchanged through faith on his name; therefore, ye are cborn of him and have become his dsons and his daughters. 8 And under this head ye are made afree, and there is bno other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other cname given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should dtake upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives. 9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ. Moroni 7: 19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the alight of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a bchild of Christ. D&C 39: 4 But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my asons; and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons. 5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel areceiveth me; and he that breceiveth not my gospel receiveth not me. 6 And this is my agospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the bbaptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and cteacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom. D&C 50: 40 Behold, ye are little children and ye cannot abear all things now; ye must bgrow in cgrace and in the knowledge of the truth. 41 aFear not, little bchildren, for you are mine, and I have covercome the world, and you are of them that my Father hath dgiven me; 42 And none of them that my Father hath given me shall be alost.
CV75 Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: While explaining why he did not explicitly reveal the existence of the Nephites to the Jews in Jerusalem, Jesus told the Nephites they were the “other sheep” that would hear his voice and be brought into his fold. He said, What do you think “those who the Father hath given me” means? (I’m not asking who those other sheep might be, although it is interesting to speculate. It appears thst they also were given to Jesus by the Father.) The Father gives us the Holy Ghost (3 Nephi 19:21, 21:2, 28:11; 2 Nephi 31:12) so that we can “sit down in the kingdom of my Father” (3 Nephi 28:10). So, I would say the Father gives Jesus those who keep the Holy Ghost with them. it seems the sheep were such peoples as the Nephites who had been scattered yet kept their covenants. This seems to tie in with the Intercessory Prayer, “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them… Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.” (John 17: 9-11). Verses 24-26 also describes them: “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.”
Bernard Gui Posted October 26, 2018 Author Posted October 26, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, halconero said: It's possible that those who are baptized are considered those who belong to Christ. It's also possible that's just the start on a process to belong to him. See the references below regarding becoming a Child of Christ: Mosiah 5: 7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the achildren of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are bchanged through faith on his name; therefore, ye are cborn of him and have become his dsons and his daughters. 8 And under this head ye are made afree, and there is bno other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other cname given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should dtake upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives. 9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ. Moroni 7: 19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the alight of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a bchild of Christ. D&C 39: 4 But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my asons; and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons. 5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel areceiveth me; and he that breceiveth not my gospel receiveth not me. 6 And this is my agospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the bbaptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and cteacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom. D&C 50: 40 Behold, ye are little children and ye cannot abear all things now; ye must bgrow in cgrace and in the knowledge of the truth. 41 aFear not, little bchildren, for you are mine, and I have covercome the world, and you are of them that my Father hath dgiven me; 42 And none of them that my Father hath given me shall be alost. Thank you. How does this relate to "those the Father has given me?" Does this apply? What does "my Father hath given me" mean? Quote John 6: 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never bthirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. I know this is a favorite of the Calvinists, but how does it relate to "those the Father gives me?" Edited October 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui
Bernard Gui Posted October 26, 2018 Author Posted October 26, 2018 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Me. You?
Bernard Gui Posted October 26, 2018 Author Posted October 26, 2018 1 hour ago, CV75 said: The Father gives us the Holy Ghost (3 Nephi 19:21, 21:2, 28:11; 2 Nephi 31:12) so that we can “sit down in the kingdom of my Father” (3 Nephi 28:10). So, I would say the Father gives Jesus those who keep the Holy Ghost with them. it seems the sheep were such peoples as the Nephites who had been scattered yet kept their covenants. This seems to tie in with the Intercessory Prayer, “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them… Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.” (John 17: 9-11). Verses 24-26 also describes them: “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.” Does this mean there is a certain portion of Father's children who are singled out for some reason to be given to the Son?
clarkgoble Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: While explaining why he did not explicitly reveal the existence of the Nephites to the Jews in Jerusalem, Jesus told the Nephites they were the “other sheep” that would hear his voice and be brought into his fold. He said, What do you think “those who the Father hath given me” means? (I’m not asking who those other sheep might be, although it is interesting to speculate. It appears thst they also were given to Jesus by the Father.) Those born again is how I'd read that. 22 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Does this mean there is a certain portion of Father's children who are singled out for some reason to be given to the Son? Depends what you mean by "singled out." I think the key act is by the individual. So I don't think it's akin to Calvinism for instance. But it seems to me that some people were able to have enough light given to them that they were born again in this life rather than in the hereafter. Those included more than just the Nephites and Palestinian Jews and early Christian converts. Edited October 26, 2018 by clarkgoble
Bernard Gui Posted October 26, 2018 Author Posted October 26, 2018 8 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: Those born again is how I'd read that. Depends what you mean by "singled out." I think the key act is by the individual. So I don't think it's akin to Calvinism for instance. But it seems to me that some people were able to have enough light given to them that they were born again in this life rather than in the hereafter. Those included more than just the Nephites and Palestinian Jews and early Christian converts. This is what I mean by singled out. Quote But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me....No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
clarkgoble Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 12 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: This is what I mean by singled out Right, and that would be grace but we reject irresistible grace. So God can do things - light of Christ, historical events, etc. which draw people towards Christ. But the individual can still make their own choices. So, for instance, Laman and Lemuel could have taken off and gone back to Jerusalem rather than accompany Nephi and Lehi.
mrmarklin Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: While explaining why he did not explicitly reveal the existence of the Nephites to the Jews in Jerusalem, Jesus told the Nephites they were the “other sheep” that would hear his voice and be brought into his fold. He said, What do you think “those who the Father hath given me” means? (I’m not asking who those other sheep might be, although it is interesting to speculate. It appears thst they also were given to Jesus by the Father.) Context is everything here. I believe that the Nephites were among Christ's stewardship. He then goes on to elaborate, that there are others also encompassed into that group, namely the entire human race.
Bernard Gui Posted October 26, 2018 Author Posted October 26, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, mrmarklin said: Context is everything here. I believe that the Nephites were among Christ's stewardship. He then goes on to elaborate, that there are others also encompassed into that group, namely the entire human race. I don’t think that is the correct context of 3 Nephi 10. He says there is the House of Israel (of which the Lehites are a part) who Christ calls “my people,” and there are the Gentiles who can be included with them if they repent. What does he mean by “my people?” Are they not the ones given to him by the Father? Edited October 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui
Bernard Gui Posted October 26, 2018 Author Posted October 26, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: Right, and that would be grace but we reject irresistible grace. So God can do things - light of Christ, historical events, etc. which draw people towards Christ. But the individual can still make their own choices. So, for instance, Laman and Lemuel could have taken off and gone back to Jerusalem rather than accompany Nephi and Lehi. Yes, I understand all that. IIUC, the Calvinists believe the Father draws his chosen ones to Christ, they do not choose to be drawn, and only they are saved, If one is not drawn by the Father there is nothing one can do about it....not even complain that it isn’t fair. I know we do not accept that; however, I am curious why Jesus refers to those given to him by the Father. They are not born again (of the Holy Ghost) until after they come to the Son, right? Edited October 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui
Bernard Gui Posted October 26, 2018 Author Posted October 26, 2018 3 hours ago, CV75 said: The Father gives us the Holy Ghost (3 Nephi 19:21, 21:2, 28:11; 2 Nephi 31:12) so that we can “sit down in the kingdom of my Father” (3 Nephi 28:10). So, I would say the Father gives Jesus those who keep the Holy Ghost with them. it seems the sheep were such peoples as the Nephites who had been scattered yet kept their covenants. This seems to tie in with the Intercessory Prayer, “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them… Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.” (John 17: 9-11). Verses 24-26 also describes them: “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.” Good comments. Thank you. Who are these? Quote I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them… Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
The Nehor Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: You? Sure, why not?
Bernard Gui Posted October 26, 2018 Author Posted October 26, 2018 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Sure, why not? Why?
The Nehor Posted October 27, 2018 Posted October 27, 2018 23 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Why? Because.
JLHPROF Posted October 27, 2018 Posted October 27, 2018 It's a direct reference to his inheritance, his position as the firstborn heir of his father. And as joint heirs we can receive similar blessings.
CV75 Posted October 27, 2018 Posted October 27, 2018 3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Does this mean there is a certain portion of Father's children who are singled out for some reason to be given to the Son? I think there are two or three passes at this ("And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."). The first pass is all those who followed Jesus in the premortal estate and came into this mortal estate. They were the Father's then, and He gave them to Jesus under the terms of the Creation, Fall, Atonement, etc. The second pass is all those who follow Jesus in this world, as John 17 gets into rather deeply. In this world, the Father gives them the Holy Ghost, which testifies of the Father and the Son in word and deed (another way of saying it, in faith, grace and actual sanctification, including calling and election made sure), and so results in their being given to Jesus to prepare and bring into the Father's kingdom. I suppose there is a third pass, those who are "judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit," in which the same thing transpires. So at first all the spirit children who keep the first estate are given to Him, and in the end those who believe and change in the second estate are given to Him. I think John 17 focuses on exaltation, and so pertains to those who are headed there, but as long as glory is mentioned, which is is quite a bit in this chapter, it may also cover lesser degrees of glory. In an interesting way, God gives Jesus the faithful, but He only fully keeps those who remain fully faithful, and so the kingdoms of glory.
Bernard Gui Posted October 27, 2018 Author Posted October 27, 2018 (edited) 33 minutes ago, CV75 said: I think there are two or three passes at this ("And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."). The first pass is all those who followed Jesus in the premortal estate and came into this mortal estate. They were the Father's then, and He gave them to Jesus under the terms of the Creation, Fall, Atonement, etc. Thanks for the thoughtful response. I understand this sentiment, but I don't see this in the context of 3 Nephi 10 or John 6. It seems to explicitly divide between chosen and gentile. Quote The second pass is all those who follow Jesus in this world, as John 17 gets into rather deeply. In this world, the Father gives them the Holy Ghost, which testifies of the Father and the Son in word and deed (another way of saying it, in faith, grace and actual sanctification, including calling and election made sure), and so results in their being given to Jesus to prepare and bring into the Father's kingdom. I suppose there is a third pass, those who are "judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit," in which the same thing transpires.So at first all the spirit children who keep the first estate are given to Him, and in the end those who believe and change in the second estate are given to Him. I think John 17 focuses on exaltation, and so pertains to those who are headed there, but as long as glory is mentioned, which is is quite a bit in this chapter, it may also cover lesser degrees of glory. In an interesting way, God gives Jesus the faithful, but He only fully keeps those who remain fully faithful, and so the kingdoms of glory. Again, I don't see how this explains 3 Nephi 10. Maybe I'm dense. Don't answer that! Edited October 27, 2018 by Bernard Gui
changed Posted October 27, 2018 Posted October 27, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Does this mean there is a certain portion of Father's children who are singled out for some reason to be given to the Son? Is it just a little flock, or is victory complete... Will all who die in Adam be made alive in Christ? Edited October 27, 2018 by changed
Bernard Gui Posted October 27, 2018 Author Posted October 27, 2018 53 minutes ago, changed said: Is it just a little flock, or is victory complete... Will all who die in Adam be made alive in Christ? Death is conquered for all God’s children because of the Resurrection. What do you mean by “alive in Christ”? I understand that to be the universal resurrection. Jesus said the gate is strait and the way is narrow and only a few will find it. What do you think that means?
changed Posted October 27, 2018 Posted October 27, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Jesus said the gate is strait and the way is narrow and only a few will find it. What do you think that means? It means God is not a very good teacher, and does not really love everyone... that "together forever" is a lie...that heaven is pointless... what do you interpret it to mean? Does anyone here honestly see anything beautiful in the idea that "only a few" will be saved? I find it repulsive. Edited October 27, 2018 by changed
CV75 Posted October 27, 2018 Posted October 27, 2018 12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Thanks for the thoughtful response. I understand this sentiment, but I don't see this in the context of 3 Nephi 10 or John 6. It seems to explicitly divide between chosen and gentile. Again, I don't see how this explains 3 Nephi 10. Maybe I'm dense. Don't answer that! In 3 Nephi 10, the Lord is calling the more righteous part of the people to receive the fulness which He subsequently shares with them. In 3 Nephi 15:37 (and 16:1), we see a reference to the Father giving Him the sheep, and in chapter 19, He repeats many elements of John 17 in that prayer. The Father gave Jesus people to minister to; these are the sheep referenced in these chapters, and this is part of the “first pass” in which the Father gives Jesus sheep. He ministers to them directly (the sheep referenced here), and to the gentiles through them. Those who receive the Holy Ghost are given Him in the “second pass”, which I think is what is addressed in John 6: 37 onward.
Bernard Gui Posted October 27, 2018 Author Posted October 27, 2018 2 hours ago, changed said: It means God is not a very good teacher, and does not really love everyone... that "together forever" is a lie...that heaven is pointless... what do you interpret it to mean? Does anyone here honestly see anything beautiful in the idea that "only a few" will be saved? I find it repulsive. OK. That’s one way to look at it. I prefer this way... “2 Nephi 2:27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself. 28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit; 29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.”
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