SouthernMo Posted October 17, 2018 Author Posted October 17, 2018 18 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Likewise blessings are a real phenomenon which science cannot account for. Alright. So. What is a blessing? When I get one, how do I know it comes from god, and is a blessing? Or, are we calling everything we receive a blessing? This option takes the meaning out of the word if I accept it.
mfbukowski Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, SouthernMo said: Alright. So. What is a blessing? When I get one, how do I know it comes from god, and is a blessing? Or, are we calling everything we receive a blessing? This option takes the meaning out of the word if I accept it. Pray about it. Read Alma 32 again and again and parse every word. If is "SWEET" to you, it is true, and if it moves you closer to God. "But how do I know if I am REALLY closer to God?" How do you even know IF there IS a God? Same way! Back to Alma 32. If it is a belief which grows in your heart to be "sweet" then it is true- for you at least- which is fine. There is no objective measure of these things. If you want a "Bless-O- Meter" for objective measurement you better get busy and invent one. Not gonna happen. Relgion is about mental states, not objective truth- but personal private truth. The truth is not out there, it is in here. In your heart. But just as real as the computer you are looking at now- which is also made by your perceptions of it. You turn reflected photons into a "computer"- chaos into order. What works for you to give you peace and bring you closer to God - if you decide he exists, which is also non objective. Kinda weird that everyone knows God is not objectively observable-- but then you want blessings to be??? What kind of logic is that???? Scientific objective truth is not the kind of truth given by religion by definition. Listen to Elder Oaks recent conference talk on..... TRUTH. The talk is actually NOT about hermaphrodites which is what this board turned it into. I wish we could do more here than take the lowest common road every single time. First 10 minutes of the talk will do. Oh yeah - and read Alma 32 until it sinks in. It's about MENTAL STATES of peace. That is what religion is. Newsflash!! Oh yeah one more- read my siggy below. All knowledge is a mental state- or else it would not be "in your head" Edited October 17, 2018 by mfbukowski
SouthernMo Posted October 17, 2018 Author Posted October 17, 2018 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Kinda weird that everyone knows God is not objectively observable Can you clarify what you mean here? Do you mean that God (as the LDS tradition suggests we understand him) is not observable at all, or that we cannot objectively observe him right now? Is objectivity any different than ours? BTW - I like the computer analogy.
mfbukowski Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 9 hours ago, SouthernMo said: Can you clarify what you mean here? Do you mean that God (as the LDS tradition suggests we understand him) is not observable at all, or that we cannot objectively observe him right now? Is objectivity any different than ours? BTW - I like the computer analogy. "Objective" observations are replicable by anyone who follows the same proceedure. They are scientific experiments. Anyone in the world can "discover" the boiling point of water and confirm it for themselves. All it takes is a container of water, a heat source, a thermometer and knowledge of your altitude. At sea level, water boils at 212 degrees F. Everywhere - for everyone to observe. This is called "objective evidence"- everyone can verify it. Religion is based on what an individual finds meaningful for himself- which story of creation or none, works in his life to give him meaning in his life and a sense of what is right for him. So if we had objective evidence for the existence of God everyone would know immediately that he exists. There would be a formula just like testing the boiling point of water. "Go into the words, bow you head and say the following words, while kneeling: A,B,C. Within a few seconds - 7.358 seconds actually, you will see a pillar of light above your head and God will appear and ask you what you want" THAT would be "objective evidence". So then scientists could photograph the light, and take pictures of God, and measure the plasma/stuff that makes up the cloud of light, and weigh God and take his temperature and figure out how his body works without blood...... It's not like that. So blessings are similar. They are psychological feelings only within the person. That's fine because the question is whether or not they are "real". All kinds of things are "real" and not objective. Your love for your wife is real and not objective. Yes we can measure the effects of love on someone's body but love itself cannot be measured. We know that some actions are "better" or "Worse" than others- and courts even have definitions for some of them- and so the punishment for manslaughter is not the same as for murder- and yet deciding which offense was committed is never totally objective. Did she fool everyone by making the murder look like manslaughter? Was something really a sexual assault or was it consensual? In some cases there is no objective evidence yet of course what happened was very "real" When I see the color "blue" could that be what YOU see as "green" but we just learn the word because we are taught the word in kindergarten? Is it "really" the same color? What do colorblind people see for that "color" and can they get the name of the color right? Everything we see is named what we have learned the name of that experience to be. But do we all see the "same thing"? It depends on the names you have learned for the experience. 3
CV75 Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 On 10/11/2018 at 8:18 AM, SouthernMo said: Both the scriptures and the more modern words of prophets have at times promised blessings if commandments are followed. “Blessings” seems to be a nebulous catch-all word to indicate something better than cursings. But it’s not clear to me what blessings really are. What are blessings (not referring to the priesthood ordinances)? I ask because I think it’s important to objectively determine the fruits of those prophetic promises. If I’m told to keep commandment XYZ, and am promised blessings will come, how can I identify those blessings when they come, rather than see them as natural consequences, or just the randomness of the universe? Happy to expound more, but let’s keep the opening question/topic as brief as I can. I'd say blessings are things one is grateful for and fundamentally recognizes and thanks God for, whether he feels they come to him by happenstance (randomness) or not. If by happenstance, he uses them to bless others and glorify God, and if not, he does the same. One identifies them by the associated feelings of gratitude, according to his level of self-awareness and love for others, seen and unseen. One identifies God in the same way, no matter how he comes to consider Him. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) Was I "blessed" when I decided, after a succession of three jobs in three years answering the phone all day every day, that I didn't want to answer phones (all day, every day) anymore and quit the last of those three jobs? Eventually, and in a manner of speaking. Was I "blessed" to find a part-time, non-benefitted job enforcing parking ordinances for my local agency, since (Hooray! ) it no longer involved answering phones, all day every day (even though I was only able to keep that job for about four months? In a manner of speaking, but, of course, no matter how much I loved that job, I wasn't going to make a career out of part-time, nonbenefitted employment. Was I "blessed" when I felt impressed that I should apply to law school? Was I "blessed" when that impression was reinforced by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland's address, "Cast Not Away, Therefore, Your Confidence," an excerpt from which I laminated and carried with me throughout my (very tumultuous!) legal education? The excerpt is: Quote Once there has been illumination, beware the temptation to retreat from a good thing. If it was right when you prayed about it and trusted it and lived for it, it is right now. Don't give in when the pressure mounts. Certainly don't give in to that being who is bent on the destruction of your happiness. Stay the course and see the beauty of life unfold for you. Was I "blessed" when, throughout nearly the entirety of my legal education, I pretty regularly felt like quitting; when I felt, like handcart pioneer Francis Webster described, as though I was picking a spot in the distance and saying that I could go only that far and no further, only to reach that spot and, somehow, to have found the will to keep going? Was I "blessed" when I took a leave of absence because I still wasn't sure about law school and got a job? "Doing what?" you ask. Why, answering phones, of course! Was I "blessed" when, as unsure as I might've been about law school, I knew I didn't want to answer phones for the rest of my life, so I swallowed my fear and my pride and went back? Was I blessed when, as I was set apart for a calling when I was in law school, the High Councilor who acted as voice said that the Lord was "pleased with the course of my life." Was I "blessed" when I graduated against all odds, only to be denied admission a few months later due (at the risk of oversimplifying) to a complex behavioral health history? Was I "blessed" when I attended the Nauvoo Temple, did initiatories for the first time since taking out my Endowment nearly 20 years previously, and was struck unexpectedly with particular force by a passage from the ordinance which I had the distinct impression was related to my professional aspirations (even though, while I wasn't particularly pleased about being denied admission, I didn't go to the temple seemping any particular answers about the matter)? (The passage talks about wielding a certain instrument in defense of certain noble assets.) Was I "blessed" when I endured two failed major orthopedic procedures, each of which was followed by weeks with my lower body immobilized in plaster which was then followed by months of painful, grueling, and ultimately fruitless physical therapy? I'm certain I was blessed when I found another surgeon who performed three successive additional procedures on me, each of which carried with it the possibility that either (a). I would be casted; or (b). I would be allowed to recuperate in a wheelchair (which, although it might not sound very appealing, beat being casted, with the attendant atrophy that would ensue, to smithereens). All I know is that I had unmistakeable peace spoken to my very soul on those three occasions as I lay on the operating table waiting to be put under, as I was set apart for the calling I alluded to earlier, in the Nauvoo Temple, and on other occasions. I don't understand a lot of things. I don't understand why, so far and, apparently, for foreseeable future, the only thing I have to show for my time in law school is massive debt (but, hey, I got a gorgeous diploma out of the deal! I wonder what gently-used law degrees from third-tier schools are going for on e-Bay these days? ). I guess if it comes to that, at least I'll have the satisfaction of knowing that of all the reasons I'll never practice law, one of them won't be because I couldn't hack it in law school. And if you tied me to an ant hill and smothered my ears with jam, I'd be forced to admit that, yes, I'd rather be depressed with a law degree than without one. Like Nephi, I can only say, "I know that [God] loveth His children. Nevertheless, I know not the meaning of all things" (Nephi 11:17). Like Job, I can only say, "The Lord giveth, and the Lord hath [withheld]. Blessed be the name of the Lord" (Job 1:21). Like Paul, I am "troubled on every side, yet not distressed"; I am "perplexed, but [usually] not in despair"; I am "persecuted, but not forsaken"; I am "cast down, but not destroyed" (2 Corinthians 4:8). Like Alma the Elder, I know that "whosoever shall put their trust in God shall be supported in their trials, and their troubles, and their afflictions, and shall be lifted up at the last day" (Alma 36:3). Like Moroni, I know that "[w]herefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God" (Ether 12:4). Why no "happily ever after" ending to my educational (mis?)adventure? Why, as regards this particular issue, do the heavens seem as brass? I don't know. As regards this particular issue, the only thing I do know is that the Lord has told me, in essence, "Yes, Ken. Sure. If you wish to do so, you can disregard all of the 'Did-I-not-speak-peace-to-your-mind' moments we've had together, concluding, instead, that the only things that mean anything are the 'brass heavens' matters. If you choose, you can curse Me, and die. Or you can choose to not forget how you felt on January 24 and February 14, 1985, and on other occasions when I have spoken peace to your soul." Does God love us? Does He bless us? Sure He does. But He's not like Santa Claus, who gives "presents" to His "good" children and "lumps of coal" to His "bad" ones. If we're expecting all of the accounts to be balanced and squared before we leave this life, we're apt to be sorely disappointed. https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/on-gods-injustice/ https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2017/09/12/on-gods-alleged-favoritism/ https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2017/05/28/law-school-wrong-road/ https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2014/11/16/beating-the-odds/ Edited October 20, 2018 by Kenngo1969 2
mfbukowski Posted October 20, 2018 Posted October 20, 2018 On 10/16/2018 at 3:53 PM, SouthernMo said: So it’s possible that the concept of blessings is a placebo? In the illusion, it becomes real to the imaginer? Just to make it clearer, the "placebo effect" demonstrates PERFECTLY that "mind over matter" is totally "real". The effect is scientifically documented extensively. It's un-explainable results are PLANNED into the statistics of double-blind studies and thereby confirmed as a "real" effect. It is NOT an illusion- it is a fact that some people can and do cure themselves through belief only. Call it faith healing call it miraculous cure, or deride it and call it "the placebo effect" as you seem to be doing here and you miss the point. They WERE cured They did not take "real" medicine etc. How did that happen?? There was no illusion- the cure was achieved through the BELIEF of the patient. I see it as a tangible and factual and objective demonstration of what religious people call "spiritual healing by faith alone" It is simply a linguistic re-characterization distorting reality to call it an "illusion". 2
Bernard Gui Posted October 20, 2018 Posted October 20, 2018 On 10/15/2018 at 8:28 PM, changed said: One of the things that bothers me about most church leaders, they do not seem to have been through the worst of the trials out there - have not been raped, have not survived genocide, have not lived with horrible handicaps and diseases, ... and it seems like they do not have experience to guide those who have been through the worst of it all.... How do you know this? 3
Meerkat Posted October 20, 2018 Posted October 20, 2018 (edited) On 10/11/2018 at 2:26 PM, SouthernMo said: This is a perspective we could take further. Is all pain a blessing, then? If we grow from pain and trials, they should all be blessings because they help us become more godlike. In that same token, are there any cursings? Can’t all difficult situations become blessings? Our whole earthly experience could be categorized as a painful separation from our Heavenly Father, but it prepares us for a more triumphant return to him (quite a All pain can be blessings. We've had experiences that were awful at the time. Losing a grandchild. Having family members go through devastating losses of faith and family members. Those things drove us to Christ as nothing else could. They worked to sanctify us, to find God in our extremeties, and that was the blessing. Come to God when we are broken, and what do we find? Experience. Understanding. Comfort of the Holy Ghost. Sanctification deep in our bones. Wisdom. Blessed peace: "Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice." "And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." That's what I call a blessing. They help us realize what Paul meant when he said "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." That seems to be the key-- "to them that love God." "All things." It is all Christ. It is all blessing. It all helps us understand how deep He was willing to sacrifice for us. That's how Job could say "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him... He also shall be my salvation." Job knew that for the faithful, it is all blessing. If we allow hard experiences to turn us to God, it becomes easier to point out the many blessings that come to us every day and in every circumstance. "Count your blessings. Name them on by one. Count your many blessings, see what God hath done." Edited October 20, 2018 by Meerkat 2
Meerkat Posted October 20, 2018 Posted October 20, 2018 (edited) On 10/18/2018 at 9:01 AM, Kenngo1969 said: Like Nephi, I can only say, "I know that [God] loveth His children. Nevertheless, I know not the meaning of all things" (Nephi 11:17). Like Job, I can only say, "The Lord giveth, and the Lord hath [withheld]. Blessed be the name of the Lord" (Job 1:21). Like Paul, I am "troubled on every side, yet not distressed"; I am "perplexed, but [usually] not in despair"; I am "persecuted, but not forsaken"; I am "cast down, but not destroyed" (2 Corinthians 4:8). Like Alma the Elder, I know that "whosoever shall put their trust in God shall be supported in their trials, and their troubles, and their afflictions, and shall be lifted up at the last day" (Alma 36:3). Like Moroni, I know that "[w]herefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God" (Ether 12:4). I agree. Blessings everywhere. Edited October 20, 2018 by Meerkat 1
Meerkat Posted October 20, 2018 Posted October 20, 2018 (edited) On 10/16/2018 at 9:07 PM, SouthernMo said: Alright. So. What is a blessing? When I get one, how do I know it comes from god, and is a blessing? Or, are we calling everything we receive a blessing? This option takes the meaning out of the word if I accept it. Obedience to law brings blessings. The scriptures are full of this doctrine: 1. "There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated." D&C 130:20-21 2. "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:17 Two examples: 1. Prior to believing in Jesus Christ, I sold motorcycles at Nimitz Honda/Triumph/BMW in Hawaii. I had good success. The idea came to my mind that I could afford to give something to charity. I called Mom in Tacoma and asked her if she knew a good charity. She recommended the Tacoma Rescue Mission on Pacific Avenue. The idea that ten percent was the right amount came to mind. I began paying it. The showroom had five sales people. People would come in, walk past the others and tell me they had funds for a motorcycle. What would I recommend. My sales fluorished. That was a direct blessing. When I found the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, they believed in tithing. They referred me to Malachi 3:10, which states: "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it." My experience proved the scripture true. 2. Meeting with the Missionaries, they shared a scripture with a promise that also proved to be a true blessing: Read the Book of Mormon and pray to know if it's true. God answered, as He said He would in Moroni 10:3-5. That knowledge is a great blessing to me. Edited October 20, 2018 by Meerkat 1
Kenngo1969 Posted October 20, 2018 Posted October 20, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Meerkat said: All pain can be blessings. ... Aaack! Don't say that! I suppose, as you write in your post, above, that's my problem: I haven't turned to God enough in my perpetually-overeducated-perpetually-underemployed, wondering-how-the-heck-I'm-supposed-to-make-a-living-with-a-post-bachelors-that's-useless-without-a-license, not-likely-in-the-immediate-future-[not-ever?]-to-get-a-license, so-what-the-heck-do-I-do-now? state. I'm not sure how to do that (that is, how, exactly, to turn to God). Give me a good, old-fashioned, physical trial any day. Tell me I've got a terminal disease, and the only thing that might cure it is a highly-experimental treatment; tell me you have to whack off a limb; tell me I'm facing something of that sort, and I'll handle that far better than I've handled/am handling these seemingly-intractable, seemingly-insoluble psychological/emotional/employment challenges. A few years ago, when I was part of the combined regional choir that sang in General Conference, I was seriously considering dropping out: Although, historically, most all of my problems have been on my left side (left hip, left hamstring, left Achilles, etc.) my right calf started to rebel (the only diagnosis I've ever been given is "edema" ... swelling. No one has ever told me where the edema comes from or how to fix it.) I suppose it's simply a matter that, after all of this time compensating for my left side, "big brother" on the right finally has started to rebel: "Dad, why do I always have to be the responsible one?!" While, normally, it wouldn't have been a problem, I seriously didn't know how I was going to be able to make the long walk into the Conference Center, through its bowels, and up into the choir loft. Two men, one of whom served as a counselor in my stake presidency at the time and one of whom served in my ward's bishopric, who were also singing in the choir, visited me at home. I told them I didn't see how it was going to work and that I'd probably need to drop out. The stake president's counselor offered me a blessing. I accepted. I'm glad I didn't drop out. Singing in that choir, on that occasion, in that venue, was one of the very highlights of my life. Whatever else does or does not happen, whatever else I'm blessed with (or not), obviously, that's the important thing. That said, although I don't think God, through His authorized servants acting under His authority, makes "offhand comments," in what, otherwise, I might be tempted to consider an "offhand comment," oddly, one of the things that stuck with me most from that blessing is, "I bless you in your work." I didn't even have a job at the time. About eight months later, I finally secured (for the first time in about 17 years, full-time, benefitted employment). Was it a "blessing" to work, (answering phones, again ) for she-who-could-not-possibly-be-pleased-yet-still-must-be-obeyed for the short time I was able to manage it?* Well, I suppose any job is better than no job at all when you've just signed a lease. Was it a "blessing" when I saw that a certain company (I don't remember which one, now, ironically) was having a hiring event at Workforce Services, so I decided to get gusssied up, gin up a resume, and do the dog-and-pony show ... but got the date wrong, so no one from that company was there, but someone from the company for which I've worked now for more than the last three years was there? The proof is in the pudding on that one: I've only averaged about one mistake a month here that probably would get me fired anywhere else. Is it a "blessing" that my company's landlord decided to not renew the company's lease, so the company has decided to vacate Utah, and I don't quite know what to do next? (While I'm not sure what my next move should be, and while I would have preferred to leave more on my own terms, I suppose it's a blessing that, for the first time in my life, it's been my employer's decision to not retain me, rather than me quitting or somehow being at fault for how our relationship ended.) As for my current circumstances, I do need to reorient my priorities, so perhaps this is a chance to do that. And which is more, it's a chance to "turn over a new leaf," but I'm not exactly sure what that means or how to do that, especially when it comes to employment. *I did something I've done too many times before: I quit without having something else lined up, but, this time, I strongly suspect that I walked out the door shortly before being chased out. Edited October 20, 2018 by Kenngo1969 1
Meerkat Posted October 20, 2018 Posted October 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said: As for my current circumstances, I do need to reorient my priorities, so perhaps this is a chance to do that. And which is more, it's a chance to "turn over a new leaf," but I'm not exactly sure what that means or how to do that, especially when it comes to employment. *I did something I've done too many times before: I quit without having something else lined up, but, this time, I strongly suspect that I walked out the door shortly before being chased out. Years ago I had a Real Estate appraisal business. During the recession in the early 80's, the interest rates climbed, people stopped borrowing and the banks stopped calling. My income stopped, and there were no jobs to be had. We got behind on our mortgage, and the bank was threatening to foreclose. During that time, I turned to God. I told Him I was doing the best I could, but nothing was happening. I had been faithful in serving, in tithes and offerings and other things that should qualify me for the blessings I needed per D&C 82:10. Yet there I was struggling. I prayed "If you could just give me an idea, I know I can provide for my family." The idea came for a Val Pak like coupon advertising business. I thought I could do that. I went all in and started selling. I sold a couple, then hit a wall. I got depressed and couldn't hardly get out of bed. But I had to-- didn't have a choice. I calculated it would take 5 ads to cover the mailing costs (before any profit for us.) The two I had sold had expiration dates and I could see my deadline coming. Driving down the road, I argued with God. I told Him how unfair this was. I had a family. I took seriously the scripture "A man who doesn't provide for his family is worse than an infidel, and has denied the faith." I was upset, and I let Him know it. Shortly, the thought came to mind "You have been exercising your spiritual muscles. You are stronger than you think. You can do this. Things will work out." Within a few minutes, I went from depression to rejoicing. Within the week, I had sold enough to put out the mailing and reconnect the gas. The next week, I caught up our mortgage payment. And we were off and running on a 7 year gig. That morphed into a dental referral business for the next 7 years. My final iteration was a mortgage company that took us the last ten years to retirement. It's been an amazing, faith promoting ride. And every bit of it-- every reversal, every setback, every mountain, were opportunities to strengthen my spiritual muscles. And there has been a lot of pure joy and gratitude in between. All blessings. In Genesis 32 beginning at verse 24, "And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me." And he was blessed. We all have our wrestles. I believe many of our blessings happen that way. Some come easy to some of us. Some require a lot of work. D&C 58:3 and 4 reads: "Ye cannot behold with your natural eyes, for the present time, the design of your God concerning those things which shall come hereafter, and the glory which shall follow after much tribulation. For after much tribulation come the blessings. Wherefore the day cometh that ye shall be crowned with much glory; the hour is not yet, but is nigh at hand." For me, and it looks like for you, this is how it works. 2
changed Posted October 20, 2018 Posted October 20, 2018 15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: How do you know this? Our current leader told me "sorry, I have no experience with that" and were no help to me... Can you list current leaders, and the worst they have gone through?
Coop Posted October 21, 2018 Posted October 21, 2018 On 10/15/2018 at 6:15 PM, Garden Girl said: Hello SouthernMo... If you think Nehor seems Pollyana, let me share my experience with "blessings." ☺️ I refer you to Malachi 3:6 - 10... regarding payment of tithes and offerings... "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it." During the years when I've been active (as a girl from age 12 - 19 years, then beginning again at age 55 after being inactive for 34 years) I've faithfully lived the Law of Tithing... I took the Lord's challenge to "prove me now herewith"... I'm 78 now, widowed, no children, living alone (except for a pushy cat named Bob)... and my blessings are numerous and varied. Blessings ranging from financial (I've struggled on occasion but something always happened for my benefit)... to health... to spiritual... and so far, mental... While I struggle with some health issues due to aging, they are controlled via meds, (including a heart problem that suddenly disappeared just before surgery, after having numerous tests, baffling my doc)... I wake up feeling well and happy. I am self sustaining (since my dear hubby's death in 1998), owning my own home outright (a cottage-by-the-sea on the Oregon coast) as well as everything in it... my van I bought new and paid cash for in 2008... and on and on... I have been retired for 28 years and have never had to go back to work... I have been blessed as if the "windows of heaven" have indeed been opened to me... I love my life... GG I to am a pushy cat named Bob. What a small world we live in!😎 As far as blessing go my wife and I are on the receiving end of lots of them. Lots of trials as well. Just recently we went thru a four week stretch that included the death of my brother and attending his funeral on the same day as a family friend. Two funerals in one day is too many. Then just when we thought that life would get back to normal my wife witnessed a horrific accident while on her morning walk. A little six year old girl with developmental problems escaped from her family home and my wife watched as a transit train struck and killed her. After a few days of dealing with my wife and the trauma she experienced the realization that the tragedy that this young family faced was far greater made my problems disappear. I think the problem with the concept of blessings is that in the Church we tend to think of blessings as temporal more than spiritual. in my ward F&T meeting tends to be a line of people spouting a litany of temporal blessings. I would argue that we experience much more joy in life when we learn to disconnect our blessing from our behaviour and just focus on what we do and let God worry about the consequences. All the best, Bob
Bernard Gui Posted October 21, 2018 Posted October 21, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, changed said: Our current leader told me "sorry, I have no experience with that" and were no help to me... Can you list current leaders, and the worst they have gone through? Sorry. I don't feel the need to pry into their personal trials. Maybe you could do that for us. Really, I don't see how it is any of your business. Oh well. Here's one: Ever hear of Spencer W. Kimball? https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-spencer-w-kimball/chapter-2?lang=eng Quote Early in his childhood, Spencer W. Kimball suffered the pain that comes with the death of loved ones. When he was eight years old, his sister Mary died shortly after her birth. A month later, Spencer’s parents sensed that five-year-old Fannie, who had been suffering for several weeks, would soon pass away. Spencer later told of the day Fannie died: “On my ninth birthday Fannie died in Mother’s arms. All of us children were awakened in the early night to be present. I seem to remember the scene in our living room … , my beloved mother weeping with her little dying five-year-old child in her arms and all of us crowding around.” Even more difficult for young Spencer was the news he received two years later, when he and his brothers and sisters were called home from school one morning. They ran home and were met by their bishop, who gathered them around him and told them that their mother had died the day before. President Kimball later recalled: “It came as a thunderbolt. I ran from the house out in the backyard to be alone in my deluge of tears. Out of sight and sound, away from everybody, I sobbed and sobbed. Each time I said the word ‘Ma’ fresh floods of tears gushed forth until I was drained dry. Ma—dead! But she couldn’t be! Life couldn’t go on for us. … My eleven-year-old heart seemed to burst.” Fifty years later, Elder Spencer W. Kimball, then a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, found himself far away from home, recovering from major surgery. Unable to sleep, he recalled the day his mother died: “I feel like sobbing again now … as my memory takes me over those sad paths.” Facing the deep sadness of such experiences, Spencer W. Kimball always found comfort in prayer and in the principles of the gospel. Even in his childhood, he knew where to turn to receive peace. A family friend wrote of young Spencer’s prayers—“how the loss of his mother weighed so heavily upon his little heart and yet how bravely he battled with his grief and sought comfort from the only source.” In his ministry, President Kimball frequently offered words of solace to those who mourned the loss of loved ones. He testified of eternal principles, assuring the Saints that death is not the end of existence. Elder Hales said of him, Quote President Kimball, being a righteous man like Job, has endured many trials—cancer of the throat, heart surgery, boils, cranial surgery, and numerous other afflictions. President Kimball’s experiences serve as an example of how we should meet similar adversity and suffering in our lives. Edited October 21, 2018 by Bernard Gui 2
Calm Posted October 21, 2018 Posted October 21, 2018 (edited) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieter_F._Uchtdorf Not exactly a comfortable childhood: Quote Uchtdorf was born to ethnic Germans Karl Albert Uchtdorf and Hildegard Else Opelt in Moravská Ostrava (German: Mährisch-Ostrau), which at the time was in the Nazi-occupied Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia (now Ostrava, Czech Republic).[4] When he was a child, his family traveled through areas being bombed to move to Zwickau in eastern Germany while his father was away in the army.[5] As a result of his grandmother's encounter with an LDS Church member in a soup line, Uchtdorf's family joined the LDS Church when he was still young.[6] When Uchtdorf was about eleven, his father's political beliefs, incongruent with Soviet rule, earned him the label of "dissenter", thus putting their lives in danger.[7] They fled East Germanyand resettled in U.S.-occupied West Germany. His sisters accomplished this by jumping from a moving train that happened to pass through West Germany, while Dieter and his mother climbed a mountain to avoid Russian guard checkpoints. Pres. Nelson...heart surgeons live with life and death in their face. http://www.ldsliving.com/President-Nelson-Shares-the-Miraculous-Night-When-Two-Girls-Visited-Him-from-Beyond-the-Veil/s/82042 Worked in Korea and Japan during the Korean War. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_M._Nelson Pres. Oaks and others have lost spouses, considered the worst thing that can happened to someone according to research, even worse than being in prison. ( https://www.stress.org/holmes-rahe-stress-inventory/ ) These are the easiest, the others have pretty bland lives according to Wikipedia. Chances are though many have had deaths of loved ones from causes besides old age, abuse, rapes and assaults, crippling accidents and chronic illnesses, mental health disorders, divorces, screwed up relationships in their lives even if they haven't had to live in poverty or war torn countries....just because that is what life entails and no amount of money or other security is going to protect one from that. If they are private people who don't feel it necessary to share their pain publicly, how would we ever know what dark depths they have had to struggle through? Our faith doesn't typically view suffering as a public sport or part of the public identity/resume of our leaders, so one shouldn't assume that silence is equivalent to absence imo. Personal stories may be shared in conference or other talks, but rarely posted in bios. I remember GAs talking about growing up without a parent; losing siblings, children, friends; wondering about how to pay for basic needs; illnesses such as cancer; experiencing racism. Individually they may not be remarkable in terms of extreme life experiences, but collectively it sounds to me they cover a wide and deep range. And if one possesses true empathy and love, it doesn't take a personal experience to have insight into suffering from what I have seen. Edited October 21, 2018 by Calm 3
Meerkat Posted October 21, 2018 Posted October 21, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Calm said: And if one possesses true empathy and love, it doesn't take a personal experience to have insight into suffering from what I have seen. No, but if one doesn't come by it naturally, suffering can help a person learn mercy and love. There is such an abundance of hardship in this life. Look at the floods in Florida, and the damage they caused. If we don't have loved ones dying, or personal challenges that are beyond our ability to endure alone, along comes a storm to knock us down. 3 hours ago, Calm said: because that is what life entails and no amount of money or other security is going to protect one from that. The tendency to judge others and compliment ourselves is, imo, almost universal-- especially when we are young. Suffering is a refiner's fire. It can purify a person and enable them to see the Divine in their brothers and sisters. Adversity can help a person learn to be easier on themselves for the woes they pick up along the way. It molds the character. It can help us more fully choose God and His attributes, if we let it. Suffering and struggle dominate much of our mortal experience. Why? I love a couple stanzas of this old hymn: We've got trials on every hand, and we cannot understand all the ways of God will lead us to that blessed promised land; but He'll guide us with his eye, and we'll follow till we die.We will understand it better by and by. By and by, when the morning comes-- When the Saints of God are gathered home-We will tell the stories how we've overcome. We will understand it better by and by. Temptations, hidden snares often catch us unawares, and our hearts are made to bleed for some thoughtless word or deed; and we wonder why the test when we try to do our best, but we'll understand it better by and by. By and by, when the morning comes-- When the Saints of God are gathered home-- We will tell the stories how we've overcome. We will understand it better by and by. My trials have been nothing compared to most. But I thank God for them. They are the true blessings from life's great hand, and this thread is all about blessings. Here is part of the famous quote from the man on the Martin Handcart Company: "“‘Was I sorry that I chose to come by handcart? No. Neither then nor any minute of my life since. The price we paid to become acquainted with God was a privilege to pay, and I am thankful that I was privileged to come in the Martin Handcart Company.’”1 Edited October 21, 2018 by Meerkat 2
Calm Posted October 21, 2018 Posted October 21, 2018 (edited) “No, but if one doesn't come by it naturally, suffering can help a person learn mercy and love. There is such an abundance of hardship in this life“ what I meant was one doesn’t have to have all the same specific sufferings in order to understand what others are going through enough to be able to provide helpful insights. I do believe that one type of suffering can open doors for understanding many others’ different experiences if one has empathy, patience, and love and especially with the Spirit. Edited October 21, 2018 by Calm 4
Bernard Gui Posted October 21, 2018 Posted October 21, 2018 (edited) Here’s an example of a blessing.... Last night our son Abogadissimo took his wife Carissima and daughter Celleste (a serious and excellent young cello player) to hear http://shekukannehmason.com/ play with the Seattle Symphony. He’s one of her musical idols. After the concert they went across the street from Benaroya Hall to get delicious gelato. The gelato place was full, but they found some seats. Soon another small family arrived, and as is his wont, Abogadissimo offered them his table and took his family outside to finish their gelato. As they went out on the sidewalk, there, passing by alone, was Sheku - out to see the Seattle night scene. They introduced themselves and told him they loved the concert and spent the next minutes listening to Sheku and Celleste talk cello. That’s a blessing. https://www.seattlesymphony.org/watch-listen/beyondthestage/sheku-kanneh-mason Edited October 21, 2018 by Bernard Gui 3
Meerkat Posted October 21, 2018 Posted October 21, 2018 48 minutes ago, Calm said: one doesn’t have to have all the same specific sufferings in order to understand what others are going through enough to be able to provide helpful insights Yes. I enjoyed your post and point you made and heartily agree! ☺ Like you, I enjoyed the serendipitous blessing of Celleste and Sheku discussing cello. What a great God we have. What a blessed life He gives us. It must bring Him a lot of pleasure to put thoughtful and meaningful blessings in our paths. 2
Kenngo1969 Posted October 21, 2018 Posted October 21, 2018 Even two people experiencing, theoretically, the exact same trial may respond differently to it, because they bring differing attitudes, aptitudes, life experiences, perspectives, and so on, to it. Those differences mean that no matter how common a particular trial might be, it's not hard to imagine how alone one might feel when it comes to dealing with it. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted October 21, 2018 Posted October 21, 2018 46 minutes ago, Meerkat said: Yes. I enjoyed your post and point you made and heartily agree! ☺ Like you, I enjoyed the serendipitous blessing of Celleste and Sheku discussing cello. What a great God we have. What a blessed life He gives us. It must bring Him a lot of pleasure to put thoughtful and meaningful blessings in our paths. Holy crap! All ya'all are neighbors then (relatively speaking)?! In some ways, I wouldn't mind living in that "neighborhood"; in others, (if it were my place to make such a demand, which I would never think it is), I'd simply have to demand that ya'all move to Utah. Ah, well! We have a cozy little cyber-neighborhood goin' on here. Granted, I don't really know any of all ya'all, but, some ways, I rather think I do! 2
Meerkat Posted October 21, 2018 Posted October 21, 2018 (edited) On 10/16/2018 at 1:50 PM, SouthernMo said: My experience has shown that people who pay tithes struggle just as much as those who don’t. People who don’t pay tithes can lead very happy prosperous lives. Tithing brings many blessings, not all of them financial. Listen to the Lord's promise: "10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. 11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts." The promise doesn't say He will make us rich or comfortable. What are the fruits of our ground? Making our resources last or magnify? We have experienced that part of it. It has been discernable, surprising at times and brought us great peace. Could it be our children? I am hopeful that it is. If so, part of the blessing must be patience because two are struggling now. Someday, they may come back like Garden Girl and recognize God's blessings. But reading the promise, I have hope and increased faith that it does pertain to family relationships as well. Tithing gives me increased faith when I pray due to expectation of the promise. Not because I deserve anything, but because God promised He would prove my faith in Him. It gives me peace of mind in my circumstances. You know the saying "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder?" Blessings like tithing are that way. I'm not trying to persuade you that you are wrong. I'm just pointing out that many of us are discerning blessings that are bringing us comfort and peace. If you decide to put tithing to the test, consider following Paul's counsel: "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work..." Edited October 21, 2018 by Meerkat 1
Bernard Gui Posted October 21, 2018 Posted October 21, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: Holy crap! All ya'all are neighbors then (relatively speaking)?! In some ways, I wouldn't mind living in that "neighborhood"; in others, (if it were my place to make such a demand, which I would never think it is), I'd simply have to demand that ya'all move to Utah. Ah, well! We have a cozy little cyber-neighborhood goin' on here. Granted, I don't really know any of all ya'all, but, some ways, I rather think I do! There is plenty of room up here. Edited October 21, 2018 by Bernard Gui
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