Hollow Earth Theory

[SeekingUnderstanding]

9 hours ago, canard78 said:

I've been away from the board too long to remember whether you're a @The Nehor-style jokester and wind-up-merchant... or whether you're deadly serious.

I'm hoping the former. That would make far more sense.

Definitely not a serious post...

[CA Steve]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Poe’s Law

Without a clear indicator of the author's intent, it is impossible to create a parody of extreme views so obviously exaggerated that it cannot be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of the parodied views.

The best parodies are the ones where initially people take them seriously. It sort of like the best kind of jokes are the ones that make you think. I taught my grandson a joke that on cue he will repeat when I ask him. I ask him to tell it to adults. He doesn't understand it but likes to tell it anyways and I like to watch the facial expressions on the adults hearing it and trying to work it out. The joke is:

 

"How do you get down from a camel?

(after the listeners says they don't know)

"You don't, you get down from a duck."

 

Wait for it.

 

 

[HappyJackWagon]

Jules Verne has always been my favorite theorist and explorer. Read his stuff for some insight on this  

[smac97]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

The problem is when such ideas aren't presented as "guesses."

There's a huge difference between "I'm guessing the Earth is hollow with men living inside" and "The Earth is hollow with men living inside." 

Is that what was said?  If so, CFR, please.

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

Especially when the person making the claim is believed to have access to infallible sources of knowledge about unknown things.

Not really.  “A prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.”  Joseph Smith, in History of the Church, 5:265.

If a 19th-century prophet or apostle presented hollow earth claims as revelations from God, I'd really like to see that.

Thanks,

-Smac

[HappyJackWagon]

On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 4:11 PM, hope_for_things said:

Goes right along with the other speculations about Moon men, and people living on the Sun and all kinds of odd ball ideas people get.  GAs are just regular people like you and me, and I imagine they have their share of crazy ideas at the same frequency as the rest of society.  

Were any of those ideas ever presented as revelation. Were the ideas "impressed upon their minds" or were they just shooting the bull at the Saltair while sipping on home distilled whiskey?

[HappyJackWagon]

14 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Is that what was said?  If so, CFR, please.

Not really.  “A prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.”  Joseph Smith, in History of the Church, 5:265.

If a 19th-century prophet or apostle presented hollow earth claims as revelations from God, I'd really like to see that.

Thanks,

-Smac

Yet it's not very clear cut when a prophet is acting as such. From the 14 Fundamentals of following the prophet- https://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng

Quote

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.

Quote

Nineth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter—temporal or spiritual.

If he doesn't say "thus saith the Lord" how do we know if he's acting as the prophet and not merely as a man? He can receive revelation and speak on any matter so we can't know if he's speaking as a prophet or a man based on the subject or apparent spirituality of the issue.

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Were any of those ideas ever presented as revelation. Were the ideas "impressed upon their minds" or were they just shooting the bull at the Saltair while sipping on home distilled whiskey?

I can't remember the context of those quotes for sure.  Here is are a couple of the moon quotes, but I don't have the full context: 

Quote

“ ‘Inhabitants of the Moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the Earth, being about 6 feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker Style & are quite general in Style, or the one fashion of dress. They live to be very old; comeing [sic] generally, near a thousand years.' This is the description of them as given by Joseph the Seer, and he could ‘See' whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see.”

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., in Journal of O.B. Huntington, Book 14, p. 166

“Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?... When you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 271

“In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet, in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and – to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can now behold with your eyes.”

- O.B. Huntington, The Young Women's Journal, v. 3, pp. 263-264 (1892)

“Now what about the Prophet Joseph Smith? I don't know whether he said men live on the moon or not. But whether he did or not troubles me not in the least. A prophet is wonderful because he sometimes speaks for the Lord. This occurs on certain occasions when the Lord wills it.”

- Dr. Henry Eyring, The Faith of a Scientist

“If [the sun] was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized. Every planet in the first rude, organic state receives not the glory of God upon it, but is opaque; but when celstialized, every planet that God brings into existence is a body of light, but not till then.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 271

“As far back as 1837, I know he [Smith] said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do – that they live generally to near the age of 1000 years. He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style.”

- O.B. Huntington, “The Inhabitants of the Moon,” The Young Woman's Journal, 1892, v. 3, pp. 263-164

There are many quotes of Joseph that we revere as inspired and they never were given in an official "revelation", and there are other things Joseph explicitly called revelation but haven't been canonized.  So whether something is considered revelation today doesn't seem to be contingent on the original context.  

[cinepro]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Is that what was said?  If so, CFR, please.

Not really.  “A prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.”  Joseph Smith, in History of the Church, 5:265.

If a 19th-century prophet or apostle presented hollow earth claims as revelations from God, I'd really like to see that.

Thanks,

-Smac

For one example, in 1835, Oliver Cowdery gave Joseph Smith a patriarchal blessing.  See verses 21 and 22 here:

Patriarchal Blessing of Joseph Smith by Oliver Cowdrey

Quote

“In due time shall [Joseph Smith] go forth toward the north, and by the power of his word shall the deep begin to give way: and the ice melt before the Sun. By the keys of the kingdom shall he lead Israel into the land of Zion, while the house of Jacob shouts in the dance and in the song.”

As to where the knowledge came from, and whether or not it is a "guess", I would refer to verses 6 and 7 on the previous page.

I'm not sure why there would be any push back on this.  The idea is no weirder than many things that are currently taught in the scriptures and believed (and taught) without a second thought by LDS leaders and members.

Edited August 23, 2018 by cinepro

[HappyJackWagon]

17 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I can't remember the context of those quotes for sure.  Here is are a couple of the moon quotes, but I don't have the full context: 

There are many quotes of Joseph that we revere as inspired and they never were given in an official "revelation", and there are other things Joseph explicitly called revelation but haven't been canonized.  So whether something is considered revelation today doesn't seem to be contingent on the original context.  

The first Joseph Smith quote is very detailed. I'm not sure that many people would give that level of detail if they were just expressing an opinion and didn't intend for it to be authoritative.

Quote

“ ‘Inhabitants of the Moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the Earth, being about 6 feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker Style & are quite general in Style, or the one fashion of dress. They live to be very old; comeing [sic] generally, near a thousand years.' This is the description of them as given by Joseph the Seer, and he could ‘See' whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see.”

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., in Journal of O.B. Huntington, Book 14, p. 166

It sounds to me like Joseph is trying to share a truth, not a speculation. And how else would he have access to this "truth" if not from God? That is, at the very least, the implication.

[hope_for_things]

12 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The first Joseph Smith quote is very detailed. I'm not sure that many people would give that level of detail if they were just expressing an opinion and didn't intend for it to be authoritative.

It sounds to me like Joseph is trying to share a truth, not a speculation. And how else would he have access to this "truth" if not from God? That is, at the very least, the implication.

I don't think Joseph would call any of his doctrinal innovations "speculation", thats my personal opinion about what was happening.  I guess what I'm saying is that how Joseph felt about any of his statements is somewhat irrelevant in the modern church.  The history of how things have developed in the church and what statements are valued and used in our community as revelatory is frequently disconnected from the original context of those statements and the views Joseph might have had about the statement.  

In fairness, I would say most religious people do this with all scriptural texts, proof-texting and being completely oblivious to original meaning and context.  

[Regor]

Forums like this are good to promote open minds. I came into the church at 20 years old, went on a mission at 21 and had a missionary from South America tell me in Spanish that the Garden of Eden was in this country. Wow, Initially I thought, what a crazy concept. We all know the location of the Tigris and Euphrates valley is in the land of Mesopotamia, on the other side of the world. Then a missionary said, they could have renamed them after the rivers on this continent, and that made sense. I met a Mormon that knew the Book of Mormon land was in the Northern United States area, instead of where most everyone thinks it was, in the Central/South America area. I thought that was crazy since, I envisioned mountains going up and mountains laid low at the death of Christ. Where are the mountains in upper state New York, or all the way over to Michigan? The Andes sound more like the event. But I suppose with God all things are possible. Maybe North America was more south and the crustal displacement at that time shifted it northward, and the mountains slid off to the side and went south and their flat area shifted up to present day Northern United states, with God all things are possible.

 I remember years ago a very intelligent man told me that the bones from the dinosaurs came from another planet, when all the pieces of the earth were put together those were just building blocks of an old world and they never lived on this final product planet. Sounds insane, I just imagine a molten planet that dissolves all those old bones, or at least scatters them all over the place, so not one complete skeleton could be found.  but I guess with God all things are possible. Maybe that planet was the topping on the cake and it just sprinkled on after the cooking was done.  

Someday maybe we will find out that the men on the moon referenced  are not in the flesh but may be spirits of men. Maybe the terrestrial sprits go back and forth between earth and the moon. I think there is some wisdom and learning of men that is going to get shaken up as we enter the millennium. 1,000 years to learn the way things really are and really were.

[clarkgoble]

25 minutes ago, Regor said:

Forums like this are good to promote open minds. I came into the church at 20 years old, went on a mission at 21 and had a missionary from South America tell me in Spanish that the Garden of Eden was in this country. Wow, Initially I thought, what a crazy concept. We all know the location of the Tigris and Euphrates valley is in the land of Mesopotamia, on the other side of the world. Then a missionary said, they could have renamed them after the rivers on this continent, and that made sense.

It's more likely the Tirgris & Euphrates and other bits to Genesis 2 reflect intertextual contamination out of Babylon and possibly other areas. 

I think Adam when cast out of the garden was in the Missouri area. I'm extremely skeptical Eden was because I'm extremely skeptical of the common view that Eden was the world and the whole earth fell with Adam and Eve. I know Joseph Fielding Smith pushed that idea but I find it pretty problematic. There are pretty good reasons for this. First the accounts saying Eden was in Missouri are late and secondary. Secondly I could see the people making these statements conflating Adam being cast out of Eden with the location of Eden. We know from primary accounts - like the location of Adam-ondi-Ahman - that when cast out Adam was in that region. (D&C 116) Those who need all of Eden to fall typically area also pushing a non-death before the fall view with the fall being only 7000 years ago. Of course that runs right up against abundant archaeological evidence. Further the textual defenses for this position seem dubious. i.e. those that aren't just appealing to what some GA thought.

The main texts appealed to for the idea that Eden fell are 2 Ne. 2:22 and Moses 6:48. But both are exceedingly vague and can easily be read in terms of Adam being taken out of the garden as a terrestrial world and placed in a telestial world while the terrestrial world remains. Indeed that makes much more sense of the angel guarding the way. Especially in light of the later temple endowment where the angel had a bigger role than in our current endowment.

25 minutes ago, Regor said:

I remember years ago a very intelligent man told me that the bones from the dinosaurs came from another planet, when all the pieces of the earth were put together those were just building blocks of an old world and they never lived on this final product planet. Sounds insane, I just imagine a molten planet that dissolves all those old bones, or at least scatters them all over the place, so not one complete skeleton could be found.  but I guess with God all things are possible. Maybe that planet was the topping on the cake and it just sprinkled on after the cooking was done.  

Yes that's the catastrophic model. Brigham Young and many in the early Utah period held to it. Again it doesn't make a lot of sense for a lot of reasons. The idea is though that there were prior creations in this world. We know of various statements to that, although the idea that this planet was made up of pieces of other planets comes later. Again it is primarily trying to resolve the problem of obvious inhabitants (not just dinosaurs) prior to 7000 years ago. It's also tied to the idea of Noah as a kind of second Adam after his world has been destroyed. Catastrophe theory was popular in the 19th century especially as Protestants tried to deal with the implications of Darwin's writings. So Mormons weren't unique in holding it and may well have adopted the idea from other popular writings of the era.

There are some statements on pre-adamites. Hyrum Smith said, "there were Prophets before Adam, and Joseph has the spirit and power of all the Prophets.?" (Millennial Star 23:406) There was also a popular southern racist apologetic that saw the so-called Watchers of the Old Testament (fallen angels who married regular humans producing giants - including possibly Goliath of David fame) were actually pre-Adamites and that Africans were these pre-Adamites. While Brigham Young unfortunately picked up some racist apologetics for his interpretation of Canaan as African he never appears to have adopted that one.

When looking at the west in general in the 18th and 19th centuries, there simply were a lot of diversity of thought - I think it clear that affected the Church although one shouldn't consider those doctrines of the Church.

 

[HappyJackWagon]

2 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

It's more likely the Tirgris & Euphrates and other bits to Genesis 2 reflect intertextual contamination out of Babylon and possibly other areas. 

I think Adam when cast out of the garden was in the Missouri area. I'm extremely skeptical Eden was because I'm extremely skeptical of the common view that Eden was the world and the whole earth fell with Adam and Eve. I know Joseph Fielding Smith pushed that idea but I find it pretty problematic. There are pretty good reasons for this. First the accounts saying Eden was in Missouri are late and secondary. Secondly I could see the people making these statements conflating Adam being cast out of Eden with the location of Eden. We know from primary accounts - like the location of Adam-ondi-Ahman - that when cast out Adam was in that region. (D&C 116) Those who need all of Eden to fall typically area also pushing a non-death before the fall view with the fall being only 7000 years ago. Of course that runs right up against abundant archaeological evidence. Further the textual defenses for this position seem dubious. i.e. those that aren't just appealing to what some GA thought.

The main texts appealed to for the idea that Eden fell are 2 Ne. 2:22 and Moses 6:48. But both are exceedingly vague and can easily be read in terms of Adam being taken out of the garden as a terrestrial world and placed in a telestial world while the terrestrial world remains. Indeed that makes much more sense of the angel guarding the way. Especially in light of the later temple endowment where the angel had a bigger role than in our current endowment.

Yes that's the catastrophic model. Brigham Young and many in the early Utah period held to it. Again it doesn't make a lot of sense for a lot of reasons. The idea is though that there were prior creations in this world. We know of various statements to that, although the idea that this planet was made up of pieces of other planets comes later. Again it is primarily trying to resolve the problem of obvious inhabitants (not just dinosaurs) prior to 7000 years ago. It's also tied to the idea of Noah as a kind of second Adam after his world has been destroyed. Catastrophe theory was popular in the 19th century especially as Protestants tried to deal with the implications of Darwin's writings. So Mormons weren't unique in holding it and may well have adopted the idea from other popular writings of the era.

There are some statements on pre-adamites. Hyrum Smith said, "there were Prophets before Adam, and Joseph has the spirit and power of all the Prophets.?" (Millennial Star 23:406) There was also a popular southern racist apologetic that saw the so-called Watchers of the Old Testament (fallen angels who married regular humans producing giants - including possibly Goliath of David fame) were actually pre-Adamites and that Africans were these pre-Adamites. While Brigham Young unfortunately picked up some racist apologetics for his interpretation of Canaan as African he never appears to have adopted that one.

When looking at the west in general in the 18th and 19th centuries, there simply were a lot of diversity of thought - I think it clear that affected the Church although one shouldn't consider those doctrines of the Church.

 

Very true, but it is problematic when these non-doctrines are taught by prophets and apostles since there role is to teach the true word of God. Any Joe Blow can speculate and make up crazy stuff, or repeat the nutty philosophies of men from the time. We don't need prophets to muddy those waters.

I find it amazing (in both the good and bad ways) that some people have such faith in what other men teach. I'm curious if there is anything a prophet could say that would make the most devout scratch their head and say, nah. Not going for it. Some of the early teachings border on L Ron Hubbard territory.

[Rajah Manchou]

On 8/24/2018 at 4:31 AM, cinepro said:

For one example, in 1835, Oliver Cowdery gave Joseph Smith a patriarchal blessing.  See verses 21 and 22 here:

Patriarchal Blessing of Joseph Smith by Oliver Cowdrey

“In due time shall [Joseph Smith] go forth toward the north, and by the power of his word shall the deep begin to give way: and the ice melt before the Sun. By the keys of the kingdom shall he lead Israel into the land of Zion, while the house of Jacob shouts in the dance and in the song.”

As to where the knowledge came from, and whether or not it is a "guess", I would refer to verses 6 and 7 on the previous page.

I'm not sure why there would be any push back on this.  The idea is no weirder than many things that are currently taught in the scriptures and believed (and taught) without a second thought by LDS leaders and members.

It's also taught in the scriptures: 

D&C 133
26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.

27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.

[Rajah Manchou]

On 8/22/2018 at 3:51 AM, Regor said:

Has anyone seen comments from General Authorities about the Hollow Earth Theory? Is it a possibility that a family like Lehi’s was led away before the scattering of the 10 Tribes and they were relocated under the earth. The theory goes there is a sun source internal to the earth.

I suspect that the Lehite narrative inspired, or was inspired by, the traditions that a group of Israelites (Sons of Moses) were led by God to a land across the waters. The traditions state that they were led to this land (beyond China) via subterranean tunnels. (source) They, along with the lost tribes, will return to Jerusalem through these undergrounds tunnels and will emerge from underneath the Mount of Olives in the End Times (source).

This is a tradition that is common among the Druze, who claim to be descendants of these people who live beyond China. The Druze believe that after they die, they will be reborn among them. (source)

This all falls in line with numerous medieval traditions that the lost tribes, Rechabites and Sons of Moses inhabit a heavenly land somewhere beyond the Sambation River at the far edges of the world. We could also include the family of Lehi.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Rajah Manchou

[cinepro]

On 8/24/2018 at 8:42 PM, Rajah Manchou said:

It's also taught in the scriptures: 

D&C 133
26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.

27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.

Well, obviously I meant other than the time it's mentioned in the scriptures...