are we considered christian?

[Avatar4321]

Did Jesus have secret teachings?

Yes.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Matt. 17:9)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2 Cor 12:4)

Christ commanded Peter James and John not to teach the people what they experienced until it was ready and Paul preached of visions which it was unlawful to tell others.

Did Jesus say to take oaths?

Yes. I assume you are talking about making Covenants, particularly Temple covenants.

37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. (Matt 5:37)

In fact thats what the whole New Testament was about, making a new and everlasting covenant with Christ.

Did Jesus say what was done in a Temple was better than what you can do anywhere else?

Not exactly sure what you are asking here, but Christ obviously respected the temple as His Fathers house, He cleansed it twice after all. The Temple is the central place of learning about the Gospel both before and after the coming of Christ.

Did Jesus say families are forever?

Yes

4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.

5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (Mark 10:4-9)

Christ is very clear. If God joins them together, man cannot separate them. God married Adam and Eve before death entered the world. They were both immortal at the time. Do you think the fact that man caused death to enter the world can separate what God has joined together for immortality?

Did Jesus teach free agency or submission to Gods word?

You seem to think that these teachings are incompatible. But if you think about it they are essentially linked. You cannot submit to God if you dont have the agency to choose to do so.

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. (Joshua 24:15)

kind of hard to choose submission without choice isnt it?

Did Jesus pay for your sins on the cross or in the garden?

Both

Did Jesus ever teach a concept of lying for the LORD?

Never heard of the concept before. Is this a common teaching where you worship?

Did Jesus teach polygamy?

5

[Bill]

To me, many of the LDS beliefs are very strange and some I consider to be wrong but I still think of The Saints as Christian.

Bill.

.

[Zakuska]

Nepheye, [EDITED: Dew to misquote]

Did Jesus teach about 'consecration' and 'blood atonement' that it was Gods way to kill people and steal their property for the Kingdom of God?

Actually... yes Christ and his Apostles did teach 'Blood atonement' for covenant breakers.

Heb. 10

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses

[sr1030]

Sr1030,

Did Jesus teach about 'consecration' and 'blood atonement' that it was Gods way to kill people and steal their property for the Kingdom of God?

Actually... yes Christ and his Apostles did teach 'Blood atonement' for covenant breakers.

Heb. 10

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses

[butsam]

I saw something very well-written on this somewhere, but I can't find it right now...

It all depends on the definition of "Christian". If the definition is related to believing in and following Christ, then the answer is yes. If the definition is instead believing in the Nicene Creed and other such things (as some people think is the definition), then the answer is most definitely no.

So now all you need to do is find out which definition they are using, and explain why the first definition is superior. If you are confused, let me know...

Sam

[Zakuska]

Correct you are SR. My appologies.

It was meant for Nepheye.

[Nepheye]

Avatar4321, you would be well serving yourself in truth to read the following:

Senate Document 189. Testimony Given Before the Judge of the Fifth Judicial Circut of the State of Missouri, On the Trial of Joseph Smith, Jr, and Others, For High Treason, and Other Crimes Against that State.

Concerning the Mormon Danite Band.

Photomechanical Reprint of February 15, 1841 Document

According to Scriptures, Satans purposes are to lie, kill and destroy.

According to this record it was the Mormons who lied, killed and destroyed.

As for the persecuted Mormons, it was the Mormons who burned out other Mormons along with the "Gentiles". It was the Mormons who killed their own membership who dared to speak against the Church Presidency in their evil plans. It was the Mormons who stole not only from a 'Methodist Priest' and 'consecrated' his property to the leaders of your church, but who also stole from Mormons who dared to not march into the treasonous war with at the Prophets command (revelation).

Sick stuff. They told the truth on themselves, but you'd better not read it and actually find out the truth. or don't you have the free agency to search the truth and wisdom out from whereever you may find it?

[mnn727]

you guys dont have as strong sides or arguments that my friends have. 

they say anyone who is saved is a  christian.

And can they also point to the scriptue that makes that claim?

[Paul Osborne]

Paul O

Christians are people who see their need for a saviour--so they repent and follow Christ.

I have seen you several times on this message board say that you are already a god---what kind of god needs a saviour? And if you are a god why bother needing to seek forgiveness----

Please provide the quote where I said I am already a god.

You WON'T be able to provide that quote.

I rely on Jesus Christ as my Savior. I'm a sinner. I need Jesus and strive to repent of my sins. I need Jesus to forgive me. My relationship with Jesus Christ is between him and me - not you.

Paul O

[rongo]

Senate Document 189. Testimony Given Before the Judge of the Fifth Judicial Circut of the State of Missouri, On the Trial of Joseph Smith, Jr, and Others, For High Treason, and Other Crimes Against that State.

Concerning the Mormon Danite Band.

Photomechanical Reprint of February 15, 1841 Document

Awwww, Nepheye, you're just playing into our hands with this kind of stuff!

While Mormons have been accused of many things in the course of their history, can you reach into your vast archives and produce ONE conviction against us? Like in this case, with the ridiculous charge of "treason?" Or anything else? Mormons were outnumbered big time in Missouri, Kirtland, Hancock County, etc. All of the judges, JP's, and juries were non-Mormon. Why weren't Joseph Smith or other Mormons ever convicted for their alleged crimes? What we KNOW, based on the record, is that Mormons were driven from state to state without due process, because, as the Missouri mob put it in their Manifesto: "the law cannot reach them; powder and ball must;" "believing as we do, that the arm of the civil law does not afford us a guarantee, or at least a sufficient one, against the evils which are now inflicted upon us, and seem to be increasing, by said religious sect" (Missouri Mob Manisfesto, DHC 1:374). These, and the actual playing-out of history show that Mormon persecutors knew full well that the Mormons hadn't done anything illegal that they could persue in court; hence the unconstitutional drivings.

Joseph Smith was tried/sued in court 47 times in his 38 year life. Can you produce ONE conviction for us? (I'm hoping you'll bring up the 1826 Bainbridge examination. I'll turn on that like an inside fastball!

Please provide documentation for your assertion that "it was the Mormons who burned out other Mormons along with the 'Gentiles.' It was the Mormons who killed their own membership who dared to speak against the Church Presidency in their evil plans. It was the Mormons who stole not only from a 'Methodist Priest' and 'consecrated' his property to the leaders of your church, but who also stole from Mormons who dared to not march into the treasonous war at the Prophets command." Along with that documentation, please explain why they never received due process in court for these heinous crimes. You see, that fact is very damaging for your version of events, especially since you would like to take the moral high road.

According to this record it was the Mormons who lied, killed and destroyed.

Was he convicted? Wherein was his "treason?" This charge of "treason" seems to have been a favorite catch-all for the anti-Mormon crowd. Wasn't "treason" the charge Joseph was jailed in Carthage under (and how, exactly, was the destruction of the Expositor press treasonous?)? They seemed so sure of a conviction that time around, too, that they hedged their bets and stormed the jail with a mob.

[MUEagle]

Well look it as this.

Mormons have great family values, very civically inclined, great morals, good discipline, and are nice. They are great people!

Does that make someone a Christian however.....?

A Christian is someone who has done buisness with God, accepted the fact that they are a sinner and that Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven. When your Born Again and Saved that makes you a Christian.

Likewise you can not have a religion that teaches that good people get to Heaven. Faith is not mutually exclusive. Truth is truth, one is right another is not.

On top of that there are other concerns that I have which pulls the LDS away from Christianity.

The belief that you'll be a God

The belief that what Jesus taught is not enough w/out the Book of Mormon, etc..

The belief that the Gospel had to be "reintroduced"

Temple rituals

Faith based off works

Believing in polgamy in Heaven, etc..

Those are some pretty serious issues that separates "Christian Mormons" from Evangelical Christians as myself.

In Christ

MU Eagle

[Magyar]

Please try to post something original and different. If you studied this board at all, you would soon realize that every one of the above statements about the LDS Church has already been discussed and answered.

Christ is my Savior. I believe in Him. I believe Him. He died for me. He lives today. That makes me a Christian, according to the closest thing that passes for a basic Christian standard.

[Guest johnny_cat]

A Christian is someone who has done buisness with God, accepted the fact that they are a sinner and that Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven. When your Born Again and Saved that makes you a Christian.

And you are confident in your judgment that none of us has done this? I'm certainly glad my Savior will judge me, not you, Dave.

Those are some pretty serious issues that separates "Christian Mormons" from Evangelical Christians as myself.

Leaving aside your distorted view of LDS teachings, obviously we are not claiming to be Evangelical Christians like you. We simply claim the right to profess belief in our Savior, Jesus Christ. I wonder why some people find that so threatening.

[BCSpace]

Did Jesus have secret teachings?

Yes. Parables, pearls before swine, teachings like those on the mount of Transfiguration etc.

Did Jesus say to take oaths?

Yes. Jehovah made many oaths between Himself and man in the OT. In Matthew 5:33 Jesus said "Thou shalt not foreswear thyself, but shall perform unto the Lord thine oaths."

Did Jesus say what was done in a Temple was better than what you can do anywhere else?

Yes. Through His servant Paul, he said that the veil (which represents Christ's flesh) is the new way in Hebrews 10:20

Did Jesus say families are forever?

Yes. Jehovah said "what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder". His servant Paul also said that marriage is required for salvation in 1 Cor 11:11.

Did Jesus teach free agency or submission to Gods word?

Both. For example:

Free agency. In Deut 29:1 the Lord gives Moses some words to speak to the people. In that sppech, the Lord, in Deut 30:19, the Lord (thorugh Moses) asks them to choose life.

Submission to God's word is obvious, but it's also obvious we have a choice.

Did Jesus pay for your sins on the cross or in the garden?

The Bible teaches the Garden (where his blood was shed). LDS know that the work included the cross.

Did Jesus ever teach a concept of lying for the LORD?

BAC/EV's such as yourself act like he did in purposely misrepresenting LDS doctrine.

But notice that Abraham's wife was indeed, his sister. Genesis 20:12

Did Jesus teach polygamy?

Yes. Was Nathan a prophet of Jehovah? 2 Samuel 12:7-11.

Did Jesus teach about 'consecration' and 'blood atonement' that it was Gods way to kill people and steal their property for the Kingdom of God?

Neither Jesus or any LDS prophet taught any such thing. You're confusing civil law in a religious society with religious law itself.

[Avatar4321]

Avatar4321, you would be well serving yourself in truth to read the following:

Senate Document 189. Testimony Given Before the Judge of the Fifth Judicial Circut of the State of Missouri, On the Trial of Joseph Smith, Jr, and Others, For High Treason, and Other Crimes Against that State.

Concerning the Mormon Danite Band.

Photomechanical Reprint of February 15, 1841 Document

According to Scriptures, Satans purposes are to lie, kill and destroy.

According to this record it was the Mormons who lied, killed and destroyed.

As for the persecuted Mormons, it was the Mormons who burned out other Mormons along with the "Gentiles". It was the Mormons who killed their own membership who dared to speak against the Church Presidency in their evil plans. It was the Mormons who stole not only from a 'Methodist Priest' and 'consecrated' his property to the leaders of your church, but who also stole from Mormons who dared to not march into the treasonous war with at the Prophets command (revelation).

Sick stuff. They told the truth on themselves, but you'd better not read it and actually find out the truth. or don't you have the free agency to search the truth and wisdom out from whereever you may find it?

What this tells me is that rather than deal with the Biblical teachings of Christ that you seem to think are so unChristian you are trying to create a side issue which has nothing to do with the list you created or the response generated. Ill take that to mean the points have been admitted and that you clearly dont know what Christ teaches.

[Del March]

Are Asiatic people human beings? I mean, sure, they are Homo Sapiens Sapiens like us, but... They have this weird skin color, and those weird facial features. They speak those strange languages that don't even have letters. They have those strange religions that don't even know Christ. They are obviously a blood-thirsty bunch of people (just look at all those wars that they've had those last decades). They don't even respect the most basic human morality: can you believe that in China they think that having only one kid is good, and that they eat cats and dogs!? And so on.

No, I think it's pretty clear that all those people from Asia, they are not human beings like us.

Sounds stupid?

To me, it doesn't sound any more stupid than saying that people like me who believe in Jesus as our Christ, as our Saviour and God and Lord, people who want nothing more than developing a relationship with Jesus and follow in what we see as His footsteps, are not CHRIST-ian.

Edit: I advise anyone who would want to turn this post into a proof that I am racist or whatever to think twice. My arguments against Asian people being human beings are highly sarcastic, and I do not believe them one second. All right?

Del

[GravyBoat]

you guys dont have as strong sides or arguments that my friends have.

[Parupunte_Medapani]

On top of that there are other concerns that I have which pulls the LDS away from Christianity.

Okay, let's discuss some of them...

The belief that you'll be a God

The Early Christian Doctrine of Theosis (Deification):

Interestingly, Early Christianity, the Gnostic Christians, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, various Christian Saints and Christian Mystics, and even several Protestant Churches (Including Kenneth Copeland) believe in the Doctrine of Theosis (Deification). Here is some information I've compiled on this subject from various online sources:

[begin Quotes]

Jesus Christ in John 10:34-36 was quoting Psalm 82:6: "Ye are gods; and all of you children of the most High." In refution to the Pharisee's accusation that He was a blasphemer for calling himself the Son of God, when we are all children of God, Sons and Daughters of the Most High:

"Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

Also of note is that in the Gospel of John, God is refered to as HO THEOS (The God) and we are refered to as THEOI (gods), Images of the Prototype.

To those who follow Christ and receive His grace and power, great promises are extended. We are promised that we can receive "the fullness of God" through the grace of Christ (Ephesians 3:19). Christ said that we can become one with Him, as He is one with the Father (John 17:20-23). Paul said that Christians can become "joint heirs with Christ" and be glorified with Him (Romans 8:14-18). He challenged us to pursue the example of Christ "who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Philippian 2:5,6). Peter said that through Christ, we can "put on the divine nature" and receive great and precious promises (2 Peter 1:3-4). Those who follow Christ can become "like Him" (1 John 3:2), can "inherit all things" (Rev. 21:7), and can be kings and priests before God (Rev. 1:6), sitting with Christ in His throne (Rev. 3:21).

1. To become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, being glorified together (Romans 8:14-18)

2. As sons (and daughters) of God, to inherit all things that the Father has (Revelation 21:7)

3. To become one with Christ, as Christ is one with the Father (John 17:20-23)

4. To sit with Christ on His throne (Rev. 3:21)

5. To receive a glorified, immortal body like the body that Christ has (Philip. 3:21)

6. To partake of the divine nature and be given all things pertaining to life and godliness, receiving glory (2 Peter 1:3-4)

7. To be made - in some way - like Christ when He returns (1 John 3:2)

8. To be made kings and priests unto God and his Father (Rev. 1:6) As children of God, to become partakers of his holiness (Heb. 12:9-10)

9. To be exalted by God (1 Peter 5:6)

10. To become perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect (Matt. 5:48)

Theosis (Deification) is an important doctrine of Early Christianity...

Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology from the article titled "Deification":

Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is 'made in the image and likeness of God'.... It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace. This doctrine is based on many passages of both OT and NT (e.g., Ps. 82 (81).6; II Peter 1.4) and it is essentially the teaching both of St. Paul, though he tends to use the language of filial adoption (cf. Rom. 8:9-17; Gal. 4:5-7) and the Fourth Gospel (cf. 17.21-23). The language of II Peter is taken up by St Irenaeus, in his famous phrase, 'if the Word has been made man, it is so men may be made gods' (Adv. Haer V, Pref.), and become the standard in Greek theology. In the fourth century St Athanasius repeats Irenaeus almost word for word, and in the fifth century St Cyril of Alexandria says that we shall become sons 'by participation' (Greek methexis). Deification is the central idea in the spirituality of St Maximus the Confessor, for whom the doctrine is the corollary of the Incarnation: 'Deification, briefly, is the encompassing and fulfillment of all times and ages',... and St Symeon the New Theologian at the end of the tenth century writes, 'He who is God by nature converses with those whom he has made gods by grace, as a friend converses with his friends, face to face.'...

Finally, it should be noted that deification does not mean absorption into God, since the deified creature remains itself and distinct. It is the whole human being, body and soul, who is transfigured in the Spirit into the likeness of the divine nature, and deification is the goal of every Christian.

(Symeon Lash, "Deification," The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology, ed. Alan Richardson and John Bowden, Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1983, pp. 147-148.)

Eastern Orthodoxy still retains much of the original Christian doctrine of theosis or deification. Here's a quote from Orthodox writer, Dr. Seth Farber ("The Reign of Augustine," The Christian Activist: A Journal of Orthodox Opinion, Vol. 13, Winter/Spring 1999, pp. 40-45,56):

Eastern Christian theology, Orthodoxy, has not been marred by the misanthropic premises that have been characteristic of Western Christian theology, Roman Catholic and Protestant, for centuries [e.g., the concept that infants are already great sinners worthy of damnation, that man is totally depraved, etc.] From the early Greek fathers to modern Orthodox theologians, one dominant theme has sounded again and again: the purpose of the Incarnation was to make it possible for human beings to be reunited with God, to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). As St. Athanasius put it, "He (the Son of God) became man, that we might become God."

Early Church Fathers:

"If the Word became a man, It was so men may become gods." [irenaeus, Against Heresies, bk. 5, pref.]

"Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, "I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High." ... For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality." [irenaeus, Against Heresies,4.38. Cp. 4.11] [(2): "But man receives progression and increase towards God. For God is always the same, so also man, when found in God, shall always progress toward God."]

Saint Clement of Alexandria wrote, "Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god." [Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks, 1]

"If one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God.... His is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes a god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus was right when he said, 'Men are gods, and gods are men.'" [Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 3.1 See also Clement, Stromateis, 23]

Saint Justin Martyr insisted that in the beginning men were 'made like God, free from suffering and death,' and that they are thus deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest. [Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 124]

Saint Athanasius - that tireless foe of heresy after whom the orthodox Athanasian Creed is named - also stated his belief in deification: "The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods.... Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life." [Athanasius, Against the Arians, 1.39, 3.34]

On another occasion Athanasius stated, "He became man that we might be made divine" [Athanasius, De Inc., 54]

Saint Augustine himself, the greatest of the Christian Fathers, said: "But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. 'For he has given them power to become the sons of God' [John 1:12] If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods." [Augustine, On the Psalms, 50.2]

[End Quotes]

"And he gave many honours to those who had worshipped him. And he exalted them over those who had opposed him and withstood him. And he spread out the land on the right side into many lands. And he made them each into ranks, and each into aeons, and each into worlds, and each into heavens ', and each into firmaments, and each into heavens, and each into places', and each into places, and each into spaces. And he appointed laws for them. He gave to them commandments: "Abide in my word and I will give to you eternal life '. And I will send you powers. And I will strengthen you with spirits of power, and I will give you authority as you will.

And no one will prevent you in what you wish. And you will beget for yourselves aeons and worlds and heavens, (so that) the intelligible spirits come and dwell in them. And you will become gods, and you will know that you are from God, and you will see him, that he is God within you, And he will dwell in your aeon." And the Lord of the All said these words to them. And he withdrew from them and concealed himself from them '."

[The Untitled Gnostic Text] (Discovered among the Bruce Codex in 1769 after being sealed since ancient Christian times; Possibly dating from First Century Christianity; The first avalible translations of this ancient Christian Gnostic Text began in the mid-1800's. The above citation is from the 1892 translation of the text)

The belief that what Jesus taught is not enough w/out the Book of Mormon, etc..

Is the Holy Bible complete?

(The following information is posted from Jeff Lindsay's website and other online sources):

Here is a list of the 'lost books' mentioned *within* the Holy Bible:

The book of the covenant, through which Moses instructed Israel (Exodus 24:7).

The book of the wars of the Lord (Numbers 21:14).

The book of Jasher (Joshua 10:13; 2 Samuel 1:18).

The book of the manner of the kingdom (1 Samuel 10:25).

Possible books containing three thousand proverbs, a thousand and five songs, a treatise on natural history by Solomon (1 Kings 4:32,33).

The acts or annals of Solomon (1 Kings 11:41).

The book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chronicles 29:29).

The book of Gad the Seer (1 Chronicles 29:29).

The book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chronicles 29:29; 2 Chronicles 9:29).

The prophecy of Ahijah, the Shilonite (2 Chronicles 9:29).

The visions of Iddo the Seer (2 Chronicles 9:29).

The book of Shemaiah the prophet (2 Chronicles 12:15).

The story of the prophet Iddo (2 Chronicles 13:22).

The book of Jehu (2 Chronicles 20:34).

The Acts of Uzziah, by Isaiah, the son of Amoz (2 Chronicles 26:22)

Sayings of the Seers (2 Chronicles 33:19)

The New Testament also refers to the Book of Enoch in Jude 14; a missing epistle of Paul to the Ephesians (Eph. 3:3); a missing Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9); and a missing Epistle to the Colossians, written from Laodicea (Col. 4:16). These writings were important enough to quote or refer to in subsequent writings preserved now as scripture. In addition, Matthew 2:23 cites a now fulfilled prophecy from "the prophets" that Christ would be a Nazarene (someone from Nazareth), but this prophecy is not found anywhere in any existing Old Testament canon. Matthew was citing scripture which is missing now. Another example of missing scripture is the text containing the words of Christ that Paul quotes in Acts 20:35: "remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive." This saying of Christ appears in none of the Gospels. Here Paul was writing to foreign converts who were not around to hear Christ preach, so how were they to "remember" those words? Paul obviously must have been citing it from a sacred writing that they had. We no longer have that writing. Something is missing.

Without question, the Bible alone shows that there are sacred writings that early Christians and Jews respected as scripture but which we no longer have. I could also add to that the many books such as the Shepherd of Hermas which were respected by many early Christians as scripture but which are no longer included in modern canons.

Those arguing for an inerrant Bible will say that whatever books we now have must be the ones God intended for us to have, and thus there can be no missing books worthy of being scripture or else He would have put the in the text. This is not a Biblical doctrine, to be sure (chapter and verse, anyone?). And it again raises the issue of which Bible God has chosen to personally compile (not to mention translate). Would that be the Bible that Timothy had as a child (some form of the Septuagint), or the Vulgate, or the Protestant Bible? And would that be with or without the disputed Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7,? Perhaps would that include the Book of Enoch that Jude and other early Christians saw as scripture? Perhaps it would include the Pastor of Hermas, viewed as scripture by other early Christians? Or did God not decide to offer a complete Bible until about 393 A.D.+, when the subset of writings now found in modern Bibles was canonized for the first time?

In addition...

The one direct quote of 1 Enoch in the New Testament is by Jude, a brother of Jesus Christ. The quote in (Jude 14-15) & (1 Enoch 1:9) is as follows:

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, 'Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches, which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.'" (Jude 1:14-15, quoting 1 Enoch 1:9)

While that is the only referenced quotation in the Bible, there are many indirect references which involve striking similarities. The scholar and translator R.H. Charles declared, "The influence of 1 Enoch on the New Testament has been greater than that of all the other apocryphal and pseudepigraphical books taken together." Another expert noted that "Its influence is apparent in no less than 128 places in the New Testament."

The New Testament contains indications that the ancient church possessed extra-scriptural teachings that were not made available to the public but were reserved for worthy followers of Christ.

Acts 1:3 in the New Testament states that after His Resurrection, Jesus Christ taught His Apostles in secret for 40 days teaching them the mysteries of the Kingdom of God.

The last verses in the Gospel of John indicates that there were many other things that Jesus Christ said and did, that could not be fully contained even if written down in all the books in the world, that which should be written.

"I have fed you with milk," Paul told the Corinthian saints, "and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet are ye now able" (1 Corinthians 3:2). If Paul ever gave this doctrinal "meat" to the Corinthians, it is not recorded in any extant version of the New Testament. Why not? Moreover, since Paul's first letter to the saints at Corinth discusses everything from the order and glories of the resurrection to the various kinds of spiritual gifts found in the church, what could have been the "meat" that Paul withheld?

The Corinthians were "babes" in Christ; they were still unable to handle the "meat" of the gospel (1 Corinthians 3:1-2). However, Paul told them that "mature" saints were taught a "secret and hidden wisdom" (1 Corinthians 2:6-7). This secret wisdom undoubtedly constituted part of the "meat" that the apostle withheld from the Corinthians.

When Paul was blessed to visit Paradise, he heard "things that must not be divulged" (2 Corinthians 12:4, AB). The Greek here is arreta remata, "unutterable words." The adjective "unutterable" was often used "of things disclosed in Mystery rites which the initiates were charged to keep secret" (Victor Paul Furnish, II Corinthians, The Anchor Bible, Grden City, New York: Dubleday & Company, Inc., 1984, p. 527).

1 Corinthians 2:6-8 We speak gnosis among the mature (teleioi), but not the wisdom of this age or of the archons of this age, who are passing away. But we speak of the hidden wisdom of God in a mystery, which God ordained before the aeons for our glory. None of the archons of this age knew this; had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1 Corinthians 2:1 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

1 Corinthians 3:1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual (pneumatic) but as worldly (sarkic) --mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

1 Corinthians 4:1 So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Temple rituals

Based upon Ancient Jewish and Early Christian ordinances, ceremonies, and rites. Washings, Anointings, Blessings, and Sealings are all a part of the Old & New Testaments. Receiving a Hidden or New Name is supported by the Book of Revelation and Early Gnostic Christianity (Recorded in various Gnostic Christian Scriptures) and Early Roman Catholicism (Monks and Nuns receiving a New Name upon entering a Convent).

Revelation 2:17. "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it]."

Signs, Tokens, Key Words, and the Endowment are all very securely placed in Early Gnostic Christianity.

http://webpages.marshall.edu/~wiley6/40_days.html - The Forty Day Teachings of Christ in the Books of Jeu and the Pistis Sophia: A Gnostic Endowment.

[begin Quotes]

There is obviously an extensive body of teaching preserved in these Gnostic traditions. These two accounts tell us that the Lord gathered together the disciples and women secretly after His resurrection and taught them certain things. He taught them the knowledge required to enter the "Treasury of Light" after this life. These things included tokens in the hand, certain signs by which to identify themselves, and names which would also act as kinds of keywords to enable them to pass by the watchers, or angels, stationed as guards outside. Once they had successfully passed them, they would come to a veil, where the Father, a "Great Man" would teach them a new name and sign, and then part the veil, admitting them into His presence.

He taught them a new manner of prayer; one in which all who participated were "robed" in linen garments (including a cap of some kind), and standing in a circle around an altar at which Jesus would offer the prayer. Before the prayer, they identified themselves via the signs He had taught them, and held the tokens in their hands during the prayer. Jesus begins the prayer by crying out three times an encoded statement which means: "Hear me, my Father." And those in the circle possibly repeated the words of the prayer.

He taught them of a new ordinance, one which would cleanse them from all sin and stain, and would guarantee their place in Heaven. He taught that this ordinance is performed only in "the innermost of the innermost," and that those who receive it will eventually "pass all gods."

"When you come to this place, <identify yourselves by this sign>:. . ., while the <token> 70331 is in your hand. Furthermore say this name . . . three times, and the watchers and the veils are drawn back, until you go into the place of their Father and he gives (you his <sign> and name) and you cross over (the gate into his treasury)." [1 Jeu 1:83]

"Again you will pass in to their interior to the rank of the veils which are drawn before the great ruler (king) of the Treasury of the Light. They will give to you their great mystery and their <sign> and the great name of the Treasury of the Light. And they will be drawn back until you cross over and pass into them, until you reach the great Man, he who is the ruler (king) of this whole Treasury of Light, whose name is Jeu." [2 Jeu 1:122]

"(Jesus) placed his disciples behind him, all robed in linen garments, while the cipher of the name of the Father of the Treasury of Light was in their hands. He cried out thus saying: "Hear me, my Father. . . ."

[T]he disciples and women were standing behind Jesus. But Jesus was standing before the altar. And Jesus cried out as he turned to the four corners of the world with his disciples, and they were all robed in linen garments, and he said: "iaw, iaw, iaw."

And he caused all his disciples to be clothed with linen garments. . . .He placed the cipher of the first amen: 530, in their hands. They placed their feet together. They remained before the incense which he had offered. Jesus sealed his disciples with this seal. . . he again beside the incense which he had offered. He spoke the prayer, saying thus: "Hear me, my Father. . . ." When he and his disciples had said this prayer, saying it to the four corners of the whole world, he sealed them all with the seal of the two amens." [Pistis Sophia 1:370;353 & 2 Jeu 1:114-16]

"Every man who will believe in the Son of the Light must receive the mystery of the forgiveness of sins, so that he will be completely perfected and completed in all mysteries. . . every sin which you have committed knowingly, and those which you have commited unknowingly, [they] will all be erased. . . ." [2 Jeu 1:117]

"t is the great mystery which is in the treasury of the innermost of the innermost. And it is the whole salvation of the soul. And all those who receive that mystery will surpass all gods. . . when you come forth from the body, you will become pure light. And you will hasten upwards. . . until you reach the Treasury of Light." [2 Jeu 1:117-118]

In the Gospel of Philip the Apostles are told that they will become Rulers through their entering the Bridal Chamber. In the Chamber, they will receive a New Garment. Certain ordinances are required prior to this Eternal Marriage: Baptism and Redemption. Other LDS ordinances are briefly referred to by Phillip, such as receiving a Hidden or New Name, Garments, and a Washing and Anointing.

[End Quotes]

Someone else mentioned in another thread:

"In the Apocalypse of Paul (Nag Hammadi library), Paul is guided by the Holy Ghost, in the form of a child, through the 10 levels of heaven. He briefly describes the lower six. At the seventh, they are met by an ancient man on a throne, a sentinel. This sentinel asks Paul some questions, like why he feels he should be allowed to pass to the next level. The Holy Ghost coaches Paul to give the sentinel his token. Paul is allowed to continue on up to the 10th heaven, where the other apostles are awaiting him."

Jeff Lindsay's website also states...

The role of handclasps in the Temple was known to ancient Christians. Further information on the significance of the handclasp in early Christianity is given by Todd Comptom, "The Handclasp and Embrace as Tokens of Recognition," in By Study and Also by Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley on the Occasion of His Eightieth Birthday, 27 March 1990, John M. Lundquist and Stephen D. Ricks, eds., 2 vols. (Salt Lake City and Provo: Deseret Book Co., Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1990), 1: 620 - 631.). Here is a excerpt (pp. 620-621):

The handclasp continued in early Christian ritual, both gnostic and "orthodox." According to Galatians 2:9, "the right hand of fellowship" (dexias koinoas didonai tini) is given "as a sign of friendship and trust," though this does not necessarily suggest ritual practice, such as we found in the Sabazian and Mithraic mysteries. The handclasp as marriage rite, however, continued in Christian surroundings. The salvific handclasp is nearly the trademark of the iconography of Christ's postcrucifixion descent into Hades. One of the most frequent scenes in this tradition is that of Christ grasping the hands of Adam and Eve to lift them up out of hell and to resurrect them. While sometimes he grasps their wrists, . . . in other depictions he lifts them with a true dextrarum iunctio. The fifth-century Gospel of Nicodemus describes a true handclasp: "And the Lord . . . took the right hand of Adam and went up out of hell (tenens dexteram Adae ascendit ab inferis), and all the saints followed him. . . . He went therefore into paradise holding our forefather by the hand, and delivered him, and all the righteous, unto Michael the archangel." Here the [handclasp] starts the ascent, continues it, and ends it on the threshold of paradise. A similar handclasp is used in the apocalyptic 1 Enoch: "And the angel Michael, . . . seizing me by my right hand and lifting me up, led me out into all the secrets of mercy; and he showed me all the secrets of righteousness."

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Those are some pretty serious issues that separates "Christian Mormons" from Evangelical Christians as myself.

In Christ

MU Eagle

If many elements of the Mormon Faith have strong ties to Early Christianity and Early Christian Doctrines and Early Christian Ordinances and Ceremonies and Rites while yours does not, which do you believe has a stronger foundation?

[tubaloth]

The best article I saw on this explains most of the problems with the idea if LDS are Christian or not.

Are Mormons Christians?

This author who I think wrote a whole book on this subject, does a good job of explaining the arguments and what the LDS Church really does believe. I think there is also an article on Fair

[Teancum]

Hell yes!

We are THE christain Church.

The rest are just wannabees.

Teancum

[Teancum]

Avatar4321, you would be well serving yourself in truth to read the following:

Senate Document 189. Testimony Given Before the Judge of the Fifth Judicial Circut of the State of Missouri, On the Trial of Joseph Smith, Jr, and Others, For High Treason, and Other Crimes Against that State.

Concerning the Mormon Danite Band.

Photomechanical Reprint of February 15, 1841 Document

According to Scriptures, Satans purposes are to lie, kill and destroy.

According to this record it was the Mormons who lied, killed and destroyed.

As for the persecuted Mormons, it was the Mormons who burned out other Mormons along with the "Gentiles". It was the Mormons who killed their own membership who dared to speak against the Church Presidency in their evil plans. It was the Mormons who stole not only from a 'Methodist Priest' and 'consecrated' his property to the leaders of your church, but who also stole from Mormons who dared to not march into the treasonous war with at the Prophets command (revelation).

Sick stuff. They told the truth on themselves, but you'd better not read it and actually find out the truth. or don't you have the free agency to search the truth and wisdom out from whereever you may find it?

man you need to stop reading 19th century fictions dude.

Teancum

[Teancum]

Christians don't just call themselves Christians, the possess the spirit, mind and words of Jesus Christ.

Yes. We possess that.

Did Jesus have secret teachings?

Yes he did. He told many things that he said to tell no man. John said that all the books could not hpold his doings and sayings.

Did Jesus say to take oaths?

Yes he did. When he revealed the LDS temple ceremony to JS.

Did Jesus say what was done in a Temple was better than what you can do anywhere else?

Ummm who says that?

Did Jesus say families are forever?

Yes.

Did Jesus teach free agency or submission to Gods word?

Well LDS believe in submission to God's will you idiot. Study LDS teachings.

Did Jesus pay for your sins on the cross or in the garden?

Both.

Did Jesus ever teach a concept of lying for the LORD?

Uhhh, no. Nor have we.

Did Jesus teach polygamy?

Yes. D&C 132. Look, you should know by now we reject your narrow notion that the BIble is all there is.

Did Jesus teach about 'consecration' and 'blood atonement'

Duh!! Of course he taught blood atonemnet you dolt. He taught His blodd atoned for our sin. And as for consecration. better study the book of Acts.

Stupidity really irritates me.

TEancum

[Guest johnny_cat]

In the end, it doesn't matter whether Evangelicals think we are Christian or not. Only Christ knows our hearts and will judge us. Frankly, I don't need MUEagle to tell me whether I've accepted Jesus.

It seems pretty obvious that the whole "not Christian, wrong Jesus" thing is calculated to marginalize Mormons, to give people preconceived notions about us so that they won't be tempted to interact with us or, heaven forbid, listen to our point of view. It might be a good tactical and rhetorical device, but it is dishonest and has led to a great deal of misunderstanding.

[Teancum]

You're right, that wouldn't do any good at all. It doesn't even make sense. I don't believe that my denomination are the "only true Christians". But if I did, I sure wouldn't be hypocritical about it.

sr

How disingenuous is this?

Your little itty bitty denomination might not be viewed by you as the only true Christians. But you most certainly believe that the only true Christians are the ones hwo get to be part of the invisible church by gettign the right Jesus in the right way which takes a lot more then just saying I believe.

This is clear fropm your prattling on about if you do not believe Jesus is He-the only true God in existence ever then you are not Christain. Right?

So Jesus was not Christian because he never called himself the One Etarnal God now did he. And don't give me the mataphisycal two nature thingy dingy. He siad the Father wsa greater then he. The NT just does not teach what you want it too. Your creedal Jesus is the wrong Jesus and teh one Paul warned about. He was talking to your apostate predecessors.

And in fact, Christians down through the centuries have not been in agreemtn on the nature of Christ the Father. Many believed Christ was not equal it hthe Father but were still Chrsitan. And there were more Arains out there when the corrupt leaders at Nicea made their little hostile takeover. Arius actually almost one the day. But thsat is what you get when people forsake revelations, apostles and rely on councils to figure out the truth.

Teancum

[YH8]

In the end, it doesn't matter whether Evangelicals think we are Christian or not. Only Christ knows our hearts and will judge us. Frankly, I don't need MUEagle to tell me whether I've accepted Jesus.

It seems pretty obvious that the whole "not Christian, wrong Jesus" thing is calculated to marginalize Mormons, to give people preconceived notions about us so that they won't be tempted to interact with us or, heaven forbid, listen to our point of view. It might be a good tactical and rhetorical device, but it is dishonest and has led to a great deal of misunderstanding.

How can you say that? MUEagle just loves you and only wants the best for you. He knows you don't believe in Jesus and are not Christian because you don't believe what he believes about Jesus. You have not adopted the highly evolved, culturally dependent, modern formulation of the American Evangelical Protestant concept of Jesus and Christianity, and thus are not and never could be considered Christian or saved. Nevermind all those that thought they believed in Jesus or thought they were Christian before the modern BAC/EV way of thinking came along. Get with it, man. Even though there is no revelation and there are no prophets, the current version of Christianity is where it is at.