are we considered christian?

[pseudogratix]

How about a person that God has saved.

What about such a person?

[Markk]

Hi Psu,

That they are the ultimatly the only true Christian? We can say we are a major league baseball player all day long, but until we sign that contract we are not, so we can claim to be Christians all day long, but until God actually saves us, they are only words. And that goes for myself, you, Hinkley, Billy Graham, or Mother Theresa.

Mark

John 1;12

[Nepheye]

I think to be a Christian you have to fit the criteria Jesus gave for those who would be His disciple and follower. As He said, make diciples of all nations, baptizing them and teaching them all He taught.

It's a very beutiful and simple truth.

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

Until we sign that contract... Like a baptism?

[Mighty Curelom]

Of course Mormons are Christians.

Mormons believe that-

--Jesus is the son of God

--Jesus is their personal savior

--Jesus paid for their sins by dying on the cross

--That Jesus was born of a virgin

--That Jesus was resurrected after being dead for 3 days

--That one should live as Jesus taught. AKA WWJD

Pretty much the only thing of any significance that differentiates Mormons from Orthodox Christians is belief in the trinity (which really is just an invention to reconcile biblical contradictions). Mormons certainly have more in common with Orthodox Christianity than other versions of Christianity which maintain the name. The Gnostics, Marcionites, and Ebionites are all refered to as forms of Christianity, yet they differ so much from Orthodox Christianity as to be virtually unrecognizable.

This whole thing stems from an elitism on the part of EVs, who think they have the authority to speak for all of Christendom. I gots news for ya- you don't own it.

So who has the right to call themselves Christian? ---Anyone who darn well feels like it. If God disapproves, he can come down here and let us know about it.

[pseudogratix]

That they are the ultimatly the only true Christian? We can say we are a major league baseball player all day long, but until we sign that contract we are not, so we can claim to be Christians all day long, but until God actually saves us, they are only words.

I guess you didn't quite understand the point I was making in my previous post. You are attempting to define what the criteria of a "true" Christian is. All that does is make your definition yet another addition to the list I put up. The list I put up could go on and on with variation after variation. In the end, however, yours ends up as just one more opinion. You may wish to stipulate only the people that have signed a contract with God are the real Christians, but then someone else might come along and add "and that don't believe this or that." There is no end to it without authority.

With your Major League Baseball example, there is authority so it is easy to determine whether or not someone really is a MLB player or not. The same goes for determining who is a member of a given church or not. The church will have a record or membership. However, when it comes to the issue of who is and isn't a Christian, this parallel breaks down because there is no governing body to make such a determination.

A person might not be a member of any denomination, and still believe that they have contracted with the Christian god. Yet, how can you verify such a thing? And, on the other hand, a person may be able to prove that they are a member of particular denomination, but who is to say that that particular denomination is authorized by God to consider themselves a Christian denomination. And on and on and on and on

[Nepheye]

Young and Taylor as Prophets of the LDS Church have clearly stated from the pulpit (Young stated all of his sermons were as good as scripture) that the LDS Church clearly does not support the Christian view, therefore they are stating the obvious, which is that Mormons are not Christians and that Christians and Mormons do not have the same beliefs.

Therefore, Mormons are not Christians. Is a Christian someone who simply

has a belief in Christ? If I said I believe in Christ and you said,

[pseudogratix]

Therefore, Mormons are not Christians.

And there you have it from the head of the governing body of Christianity himself, Nepheye.

[Paul Osborne]

Therefore, Mormons are not Christians.

You know nothing of my personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

I

[drfatguy]

To All,

Which brand of Christianity is correct? Is it Calvinism? Lutheran, RCC, Wesleyan, EOC, Gnostic? All have claims. All differ in essential of the Christian faith (Soverignty of God is an essential and different). Which is right? Please tell me.

Dr Fatguy

I'm speaking phliosophies, not churches.

[Del March]

Is a Christian someone who simply has a belief in Christ? If I said I believe in Christ and you said,

[Nepheye]

Predestination is a deep subject. It is true. Those who belong to God will come to Him by believing Jesus Christ in every way possible. The surest defense of not falling for any deception is given that we " keep to that which has been from the beginning". This was not said in reference to Adam, but to the revealing of the gospel by Jesus Christ.

God predestined that salvation can only come by repentance and faith in Him.

God has known since before man was created each person who would be saved. That we live our lives out is to show us His judgement is fair that we not be able to accuse Him wrongly.

[LDS4EVER]

Young and Taylor as Prophets of the LDS Church have clearly stated from the pulpit (Young stated all of his sermons were as good as scripture) that the LDS Church clearly does not support the Christian view, therefore they are stating the obvious, which is that Mormons are not Christians and that Christians and Mormons do not have the same beliefs.

Therefore, Mormons are not Christians. Is a Christian someone who simply

has a belief in Christ? If I said I believe in Christ and you said,

[Del March]

Predestination is a deep subject.  It is true.

And yet I am under the impression that many Christian creeds don't believe in predestination. So I suppose they are not really Christian?

God predestined that salvation can only come by repentance and faith in Him.

This is not predestination: it's a law, a rule, a requirement, whatever you want to call it. But it's not predestination.

God has known since before man was created each person who would be saved.

If by this you mean that God has always known who would accept Him or not, then once again this is not predestination IMO: it's foreknowledge.

Del

[Nepheye]

The matter is that we believe Jesus and that we believe in Jesus and that we believe and have faith that evey word or deed was from the Father. That is the starting and focal point. Is it a matter of saving faith to understand it? I don't think so. People must have different understandings of some things because a fully grown faith is a little different than a new faith, just as the seed is different from the plant it produces. The fruits, according to Jesus, are how we can determine if the plant is not of God. Those who are of God hate lies and love the truth - be it about God or about their own faults that they might grow further into the image of God they were created to be. I would not consider a person not a Christian unless they taught things against what Jesus taught - teachings that were not compatable with His doctrines of truth. The best I can recollect that He taught about it was the enemy who sowed weed seeds in His field and that He said to wait until the harvest - clearly the Day of The LORD.

Read John again. Jesus clearly taught that those of God come to Him. That God draws them, not that it is even of human will. No man can come to Jesus except that the Father draws him.

[Del March]

The matter is that we believe Jesus and that we believe in Jesus and that we believe and have faith that evey word or deed was from the Father.  That is the starting and focal point.

You are shamelessly skirting the issue, Nepheye. Let's review what you've said:

1. What matters is to believe in Christ.

To which we LDS replied: but we do believe in Christ.

So you explained:

2. You have to believe in the right Christ. Yours is not the right Christ because it doesn't teach the same things as ours does.

To which I explained: but even all the Christian Jesuses don't teach the same things, and yet according to you they are all Christian.

And you replied:

3. Well, yes, but what matters is to believe in Jesus, no matter what.

To which I reply: we LDS believe in Jesus. We believe in every word that Jesus said in the Bible. So why aren't we Christian?

People must have different understandings of some things because a fully grown faith is a little different than a new faith, just as the seed is different from the plant it produces.

And yet you blame us LDS because our faith is different from yours.

The fruits, according to Jesus, are how we can determine if the plant is not of God.  Those who are of God hate lies and love the truth - be it about God or about their own faults that they might grow further into the image of God they were created to be.

It might be hard for you to believe, but we LDS also hate lies and love the truth. Just because you don't agree with us on what the lies and the truth are does NOT mean that we LDS love the lies and hate the truth. And we are definitely the ones who claim most that man can grow into the full image of God.

So what are the LDS fruits that make you think that we are not of God?

I would not consider a person not a Christian unless they taught things against what Jesus taught - teachings that were not compatable with His doctrines of truth.

Teachings that were not compatible with His doctrines, or teachings that were not compatible with your understanding of His doctrines?

The best I can recollect that He taught about it was the enemy who sowed weed seeds in His field and that He said to wait until the harvest - clearly the Day of The LORD.

And yet you have no problem judging us LDS right now, today, calling us non-Christian and lovers of lies, and condemning us all to Hell. Makes sense.

Read John again.  Jesus clearly taught that those of God come to Him.  That God draws them, not that it is even of human will.  No man can come to Jesus except that the Father draws him.

God calls everyone to come to Him, through the Holy Ghost and the scriptures. But only those who love Him will listen to the call. God draws, man chooses to walk.

Del

[Teancum]

Young and Taylor as Prophets of the LDS Church have clearly stated from the pulpit (Young stated all of his sermons were as good as scripture) that the LDS Church clearly does not support the Christian view, therefore they are stating the obvious, which is that Mormons are not Christians and that Christians and Mormons do not have the same beliefs.

Therefore, Mormons are not Christians. Is a Christian someone who simply

has a belief in Christ? If I said I believe in Christ and you said,

[Markk]

Hi Ray,

The contract has nothing to do with salvation or being called a Christian, it was a point in that there is a time when one is not a ballplayer, and a time when a ball player becomes the ball player, he can say this and that all he wants but until he signs he is not a MLB player. While the Contract determines when a player is officially a MLB player, God determines when a person is a Christian. Having your name in the lambs book of life might be a good analogy, but just that, in the end it is Providence that determines the saved person.

Del,

A

[drfatguy]

Markk,

I have a problem with you calling predestination an in house debate. The reason being is Calvin, and Calvinists, tie predestination into the Sovereignty of God. This makes predestination a huge part of God's nature. God's nature is an essential (John 17:3). This has been the debate all along, where God's Sovereignty ends and man's free will begins. Calvin felt free will was a myth. We are either agents or we are not and this is why I don't think the Christian world has achieved as much unity as is perceived by them.

Dr Fatguy

[rhinomelon]

I haven't really been following this discussion, but one book that people might be interested in is J.I. Packer's "Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God". It explores the paradox of the biblical testimony regarding both God's sovereignty and election, and the call to righteousness of human beings with free will. Both are biblical.

As G.K. Chesterton once wrote, "Christianity got over the difficulty of combining furious opposites, by keeping them both and keeping them both furious." That guy was hilarious

Take care, everyone

[pseudogratix]

I don

[sidewinder]

Pseudo,

I don't think Markk is being unreasonable.

Markk said,

I don

[pseudogratix]

Not in his opinion it isn't...

Yes, in his opinion, sure. Thank you for making my point.

[sidewinder]

psuedo,

it doesn't matter how you frame it, whether you have a "body" of old geezers to determine what a Christian is or the complete and final authority, the Biible, you can't escape the fact that to you, Christians are whoever you believe they are, and to Markk, Christians are whoever he agrees they are. The difference, is Markk is actually helpful distinctions to answer the question from his viewpoint.

dr fatguy,

"this is why I don't think the Christian world has achieved as much unity as is perceived by them."

I think you're right about that. Certianly, there is a spectrum, and they'd all unite together against Mormons and Atheists. But the division can be very real. I listen to the radio ministry of Calvary chapel every day during the commute, and they hate Calvinism very nearly as much as anything else. They bash it all the time and go so far as to say it's a teaching of the devil. And there are plenty of street wars between different Christian groups. I've found some humorous stories on the net about churches here in Cali. It's big business, these Christian centers. And it's also big egos. all it takes is a heated argument or two about one of these so called minor points of doctrine, and Joe junior pastor gets mad, denounces his brethren and goes of to start his own church.

[pseudogratix]

you can't escape the fact that to you, Christians are whoever you believe they are, and to Markk, Christians are whoever he agrees they are.

Thank you for supporting my point again.

Unlike the question of whether someone is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or a player in the MLB, there is no physically verifiable way to determine whether or not someone is indeed a "Christian" or not. As such, it is futile to point at people claiming to be Christians or denominations claiming to be Christian or theology that is claimed to be Christian and say, "No, you are not Christian/you're denomination isn't Christian/you're theology isn't Christian."

There is no such universally recognized governing body of Christianity which can declare a person's membership in Christianity, declare whether a given denomination is Christian or not, or declare whether a given theology is Christian or not.

This is the paradox that people who attempt to deny the claims made by others (in regard to Christianity) face. This is my point.