are we considered christian?

[Nepheye]

Rongo, it is evident you did not read the document, for if you did you would read of the specific Mormons who attacked other specific Mormons, some of which were attacked were among the very witnesses to the book of Mormon. So which testimony do you believe? If they were worthy to consider about the book of Mormon, why is not their slander and attack from the Prophet questioned or even thought about? You might be enlightened to the real truth of history and the real nature and motivation of the BY branch of the Saints if you took the time to read it and think about it and realize they told pretty much what happened. The facts speak for themselves.

Nepheye, do you deny that the Mormons were driven from three states without due process? If so, where is your "objective recorded history" that demonstrates that any Mormons were tried AND convicted for what you claim? This fact, that those seeking to drive the Mormons out did not use legal means and the court system to seek recourse for alleged Mormon wrongs, is devastating to your claims.

Nepheye: You have not read the accounts of others. Your prophet was his own law. No law designed to protect men from such as himself was valid in his eyes. He violated and commanded his followers to violate not only the laws of the land, but the very Constitution, but even more importantly, to violate the Laws of God and the very core principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith was absolutely not a man of God or Jesus Christ. "Not all who say to me 'Lord! Lord! shall be saved, but he that doeth the will of God" "Depart from me, ye lawless ones! I never knew you!!!" Because Joseph claimed to be Gods mouthpeace did not make him Gods mouthpeace. "By their fruits ye shall know them."

To remind you of what you've been asked to respond to, here are links:

#1

#2

Nepheye: I'll check them out later today if I can.

You can claim all you want that Mormons committed, as a people and under direction from their leaders, great wrongs; all you cite is "sworn testimony" from mobocrat vigilantes who illegally deprived Mormons of life, liberty, and property. Why did they not punish the alleged (outnumbered minority) perpetrators according to the law? They admitted that the law didn't give them protection from the "wrongs" of the Mormons, which is as much as to admit that the Mormons hadn't done anything wrong. They were alarmed that the Mormons moving in would gain political influence and become the majority; that was their crime (oh, and the Mormons believed in revelation, the Book of Mormon, etc. That was mentioned in the Mob Manifesto, too).

Nepheye: I didn't make the claim. Mormon after Mormon after Mormon made the claims. So, as you also testify?, Mormons were mobocrat vigilantes? They were. That was part of the treason, that they were an armed militia marching to kill, destroy and steal from non Mormons and Mormons that said the prophet had a screw loose and was lying in the name of God. Please, Dadof7, do yourself and your children a great service by having the courage needed to read both the Senate Document 189 and Governor Thomas Ford's Memoirs about the Mormon Wars. Your Church has lied about its' history. A white lie is a lie and all who practice and love lies will have their place reserved: for Jesus said so.

Can't you see that your "objective recorded history . . . sworn testimony of record" is meaningless without evidence of attempts to remedy the alleged wrongs by legal means? Unless you can provide this, the account given by "our Church historian" has the soundest foundation; after all, it but claims what the historical record AND historical results bear out.

Nepheye: The objective redress of wrong was attempted. That account is in Governor Ford's Memoirs. Check it out for yourself!!! It was Mormons who took the money from Mormons - collecting a reported 10 times property values to live near the LDS Prophet in town - then never recorded either that they owned the property or that any was sold and deeded to the purchaser at the County seat - the transactions were bogus as the Mormon three dollar bill. The State nor the County could give the Mormons other peoples land if no Mormon bought it to start with! There may well have been a few who purchased property from others legally in other places, but after the way Mormons were killing, burning and stealing = "consecrating the gentiles property", there was no way the government could allow the situation to continue, which is why the Mormons had to leave, and rightfully so.

Your invitation to "read it for yourself or . . . choose to be willfully ignorant" is amusing. How much of the opposite view have you read? As you can see, many of us have read quite a bit of anti-Mormon claims, and this puts us at a great advantage. You throw out things from anti-Mormon sources, but you are obviously not acquainted with both versions so as to be able to weigh and sift the evidence.

Nepheye: So how do you justify the lies and only half revealing the truth on the latest History Channel's "MOUNTAIN MEADOWS MASSACRE" special? I know they lied because I've done some homework. Have you read Lee's book "Mormonism Unveiled"? Have you read the senate document? Have you read anything that might actually shed more light on the topic that is objective? Heck, you Mormons think that reading sermons by JS and BY is anti Mormon materials. Go figure

Remember: you can admit that you have thrown around historical allegations irresponsibly, and this doesn't mean that you believe Mormonism is true. But it would be responsible and noble of you, and a step in the right direction.

Looking forward to your reply!

Nepheye: If I admitted that I'd be a liar. Liars are not noble. Real Christians love the truth and seek after the truth and prove what is true and what is not. Real Christians admit their sins, ask forgiveness and make restitution. Real Christians seek the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind and strength. God desires goodness, mercy, truth and justice. That is why He sent Jesus. Those who are condemned are justly condemned for their sins because they do not believe Jesus is who He said He is or do what He said to do or have the mind of Christ.

"Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD"

"A righteous man hates lying."

"A lying tongue hates those who are crushed by it,

And a flattering mouth works ruin."

"The ear that hears the rebukes of life

Will abide among the wise.

He who disdains instruction despises his own soul,

But he who heeds rebuke gets understanding.

The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom,

And before honor is humility.

The preparations of the heart belong to man,

But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes,

But the LORD weighs the spirits.

Commit your works to the LORD,

And your thoughts will be established.

The LORD has made all for Himself,

Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Everyone proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD;

Though they join forces, none will go unpunished.

In mercy and truth

Atonement is provieded for iniquity;

And by the fear of the LORD one departs from evil.

When a man's ways please the LORD,

He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.

Better is a little with righteousness,

Than vast revenues without justice."

[KevinG]

Please, Dadof7, do yourself and your children a great service by having the courage needed to read both the Senate Document 189 and Governor Thomas Ford's Memoirs about the Mormon Wars. Your Church has lied about its' history. A white lie is a lie and all who practice and love lies will have their place reserved: for Jesus said so.

I don't recall inviting myself into your ranting on the margins of this discussion.

However, since you invoked my children, I encourage them to read on all aspects of our history, good bad and ugly. However, I don't let them spew unsubstantiated, one sided diatribes mixed with preaching. I expect them to be a little more careful when evaluating their sources than you have been.

Good luck with the judgement, and pray you have never been in error, given your judgement of all of us. For ye are judged according to how you judge.

I can't take you seriously while you continue to avoid answering specific questions by throwing up more general accusations.

[Nepheye]

All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes,

But the LORD weighs the spirits.

But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

The personal witness of those involved is not unsubstantiated. I know I was talking to Rongo, but the Spirit told me to say that to you specificly. Either I'm nuts or He told me to say it to you. If I'm nuts, why do I go through what I do here? if I'm nuts, why do I seek the witness from the beginnings of both the Church of our Lord by His apostles or the LDS record and the secular recorded history? I really don't think I'm nuts.

[Nepheye]

Rongo, both links are to my posts. Read the SD 189. Those claims are easily and quickly found to be the charges from Mormons against Mormons.

I believe it was Governor Ford who said 'that they tell the truth on each other'.

[KevinG]

All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes,

But the LORD weighs the spirits.

But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.  For who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?  But we have the mind of Christ.

The personal witness of those involved is not unsubstantiated.

Governor Ford was not a personal witness to any of those events. He relied on the reports of others, whom in a great number of cases had ulterior motives for slandering Joseph Smith. This is also the case with Brigham Young in later years.

I know I was talking to Rongo, but the Spirit told me to say that to you specificly.

[Nepheye]

Somehow it seems different when one is contending for the truth. That is a commandment.

Go ahead and wander down to Utah Lighthouse Ministry and get a copy of Senate document 189. Governor Fords Memoirs on the topic of the Mormon Wars is available on the internet. Lee's book, "Mormonism Unvieled" is available as a reprint from Amazon.com for about $12. The rest of the story is available for less than $20, which should be within the reach of us all.

The real Christian bases his realness at the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ and believes in Jesus. The need to believe the account of a 19th century man being a prophet really doesn't count towards that faith.

[KevinG]

Somehow it seems different when one is contending for the truth.  That is a commandment.

Proverbs 13:10 Only by pride cometh bcontention: but with the well advised is wisdom.

3 Nephi 11:29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

http://scriptures.lds.org/prov/18

I would say that the vast majority of inspiration I have received about posting on boards is that I'm probably wasting my time and tempting myself to be too contentious.

[KevinG]

The real Christian bases his realness at the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ and believes in Jesus.

Which is why I consider myself a real Christian, along with millions of faithful Latter Day Saints who know and follow the Savior Jesus Christ. My testimony of Jesus Christ came at the preaching of the Mormon missionaries who instructed me in how I might recieve personal revelation. I prayed to find out if Jesus Christ was my savior, and received that answer by the power of the Holy Spirit. That same Spirit testified to me of the truthfulness of the Missionaries message, the book of Mormon, the prophetic mission of Joseph Smith, et al.

Yes, my knowledge of the Gospel is rooted in my testimony of Jesus Christ my Savior, and that is why I claim the title of Christian for myself and my Church.

Thanks for getting us back on topic.

[Teancum]

Teencum, the source listed is objective recorded history, and is sworn testimony of record. 

No it is not.

It isn't a fable or fantacy.

Yes it is. I note that you did not provide a reference to your claim. But I am familiar with the proceeding to which you scurrilously refer. They do not say what you say they do.

Mormons murdered Mormons, Mormons stole from Mormons, and Mormons burned down Mormon houses and barns.

No they did not.

The 'Poor persecuted Mormons" history is nothing like your Church historian have told you

Yes it is. I have read "objective history as well. And you sir by saying this are like the so called Christian perpetrators of the crimes against the saints.

You can read it for yourself or you can choose to be willfully ignorant.

I am quite well read in this and know that you are being dishonest in your portrayal. You may be able to fool some poor benighted ignorant soul but not me. I am quite the historian thank you.

It's your agency, not mine that is in question.

I am not sure your point here other then perhaps another "Christian" love jab.

Teancum

[Teancum]

How very arrogant of you (not just you, LDS in general) to think you can give someone the "right" or offer your approval to "allow" someone to call themselves a Christian. You don't have that influence one way or another. We don't need or seek your approval. And this works visa versa, you don't need my approval or agreement to call your self Christian

And you Mr. 1030 are a hypocrite in this statement. You callus arrogant????

Of course you know that the poster in this case was just saying he doesn't care who calls themselves Christian. Not that the LDS Church has power to grant something or that he does.

Yet, you, YOU, and your contingent of Christian police, are the ones who think they have the copy write on the word Christian. How utterly arrogant of you and your crew. Look at Mr. Pot here. How dare you call anyone arrogant for doing exactly what the evangelical community does.

Teancum

[Teancum]

I give up, how disingenuous is it?

Incredibly disingenuous.

"itty bitty"? This coming from an LDS?

I have no idea what denomination you are. But I think you got my point.

Its really not my argument. I just go by what the bible says. In this case, Christ specifically. Apparently believing he existed is not enough.

So you concede that your club is exclusive.

To believe in Christ means that you believe what he said. He said he was God. He said there was only one true God. I believe it.

Please show me where He siad I am God, the One true God. BTW, I belive He is God and one with the Father but just not the way your creeds explain it.

Christ said this as a human. He became fully human. He gave up the "glory" he previously shared with the Father. See the book of John.

I have read the bookof John. I understand the emptying of glory Christ made when he cam to earth. Yet He certainly was talking about His Father when he made statements I pointed out. And were Ge before you or me now He would make the same statament. His Father is greater then He is. Being humna or a glorified being has nothing to do with it.

I know Church history.

If you say so.

Teancum

[Teancum]

To have the LDS Church which to be viewed as Christian causes a lot of misunderstanding as well. Some people will believe that the LDS Church believes in the same Christ (not just historical person, that is the same of course) as we do. This is just simply not true.

sr

I certainly agree with that. You have the worng Jesus. We don't.

And many from the so called orthodox view find this rather appealling as your view is confusion.

Teancum

[Teancum]

Can you tell me how an Apostate can be a "true Christian"?

Can you even tell me how an Apostate can be a "Christian"?

sr

Please define for us Christian as you use it here.

Teancum

[Teancum]

fyi, I do consider RLDS or whatever they are called now, as a Christian religion, by definition.

sr

Why?

Teancum

[Teancum]

Rongo, it is evident you did not read the document, for if you did you would read of the specific Mormons who attacked other specific Mormons, some of which were attacked were among the very witnesses to the book of Mormon.  So which testimony do you believe?  If they were worthy to consider about the book of Mormon, why is not their slander and attack from the Prophet questioned or even thought about?  You might be enlightened to the real truth of history and the real nature and motivation of the BY branch of the Saints if you took the time to read it and think about it and realize they told pretty much what happened.  The facts speak for themselves.

You see what N is doing here is taking an isolated event and blowing it into a categorically solid example of how al the Mormons acted.

What he is referring to is the time when Oliver Cowdry and David Whitmer were excommunicated ( for varying and sundry reasons) and the activities of Sydney Rigdon in firing up a few members in Missouri to drive them out if they did not leave. Rigdon was a bit of a scoundrel in this case and Sampson Avard took it a but far I will agree. There were issues from Cowdry and Whitmer as well but I think Rigdon is more to blame. A small skirmish.

Of course the twelve apostles got along well and never had difficulties right. And there are no disagreements among Christianity in its history either and now they all get along just finely today now don't they.

What a joke this is of N trying to make something of this.

Teancum

[Teancum]

Bump

[Markk]

Hi,

If Mormons are Christians, why do they try to make Christians Mormons?

Mark

John 1:12

[Teancum]

Hi,

If Mormons are Christians, why do they try to make Christians Mormons?

Mark

John 1:12

Cause Mormons are the Christians with the truth. The others are the Christians without all the truth.

Teancum

[Beowulf]

That is a really silly question...

People are always moving back and forth from one Protestant denomination to another. When this happens, isn't this one Christian sect taking from another?

And when it happens, is the sect losing the person not considered Christian? Or the one taking the person?

Assuming that the answers to the above are obvious..., then...

Why when LDS do the identical same thing, is it considered a horrendous assault on Christianity?

Beowulf

[pseudogratix]

If Mormons are Christians, why do they try to make Christians Mormons?

Allow me to translate into LDSese for you:

"If LDS claim to be Christians, why do thy try to convert non-LDS Christians to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?"

The short answer is because it is the position of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the priesthood (keys and authority) to perform saving ordinances. Of course, as a former member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I am sure you were already aware of this position.

[Markk]

Hi Guys,

So you can become a Christian without the truth?

Mark

John 1:12

[pseudogratix]

So you can become a Christian without the truth?

I suppose that depends on who gets to have the last word on what a "Christian" is and what the "truth" is.

[Markk]

Hi Pse,

So it's relative?

Mark

John 1:12

[pseudogratix]

So it's relative?

Well, short of authority, it is pretty much a relative issue. Consider the following in regard to just the term "Christian."

• Person A: A Christian is someone who accepts Christ. That is the only absolute requirement.
  
• Person B: A Christian is someone who accepts Christ as their Savior from sin. That is the only absolute requirement.
  
• Person C: A Christian is someone who accepts Christ as their Savior from sin and death. That is the only absolute requirement.
  
• Person D: A Christian is someone who considers themselves a Christian. That is the only absolute requirement.
  
• Person E: A Christian is someone who accepts Christ as their Savior from sin and death and the Bible as the inherent word of God. Anyone who falls short of these conditions is not a real Christian.
  
• Person F: A Christian is someone who accepts Christ as their Savior from sin and death, the Bible as the inherent word of God and isn't a member of a cult. Anyone who falls short of these conditions is not a real Christian.
  
• Person G: A Christian is someone who accepts Christ as their Savior from sin and death, the Bible as the inherent word of God, isn't a member of a cult and who strives each day to do their best to follow Christ in everything they do. Anyone who falls short of these conditions is not a real Christian.
  
• Person H: A Christian is someone who acts like Christ would whether or not they actually consider themselves a Christian or not. That is the only absolute requirement.
  
• Person I: A Christian is someone who has been baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That is the only absolute requirement.
  
• Person J: A Christian is someone who has been touched by Christ in their lives. That is the only absolute requirement.
  
• Person K: A Christian is someone who called such by his/her distracters in a nugatory fashion. That is the only absolute requirement.
  

And on and on and on and on

[Markk]

Hi psu,

How about a person that God has saved.

Mark

John 1;12