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are we considered christian?


SupahFly21

Are we, LDS, christians?  

71 members have voted

  1. 1. Are we, LDS, christians?

    • Yes
      54
    • No
      8
    • Doesn't Matter
      9


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Does it really matter? Bigots will always try to segregate themselves from everybody. You can't do anything to people who refuse to adknowleg you are Christian, just like you can't stop a racist from thinking racist thoughts.

If there is open discrimination, that's one thing, but opinions of the blind masses are the only thing that comes from a human soul that could be possibly considered worthless.

We are Christian. Those who say otherwise should attend a Sacrament meeting. In fact, it's no wonder that many ministers forbid their members from comming on to mormon property. If they did, they would see for certain who we are and what we represent.

You know, to us it's about saving souls. To them, it's a power game. More members for us = less members and money for them. Now I know this isn't true for everybody, but it is for some.

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i've been stuggling lately on my families whole Mormon religion, i've been good and i've gone to church every sunday but all these friends at school say mormons arent christian.

What they're saying is that Latter-day Saints aren't their form of Christian . . which if you explore it further will be not based on what they know, but what they heard from someone else who doesn't know better.

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We art of a sect of Christianity, refered to as Mormonism as those who also follow teachings from the Book of Mormon.

Is there a denomination named Christianity? No

Does anyonne hold the franchise of the term "Christian"? No

Do Latter-day Saint Believe in Chist and consider themselves Christians? Yes.

Christianity is a sect of Judeoism. All one has to do, to be in it, is to believe and follow the teachings of Christ, since no denomination hold any rights or titles over interpreting the Bible, all are part of this same sect.

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I may not be the brightest person around, but even I know the name of the Church (The Church of Jesus Christ) and who we try to emmulate(Jesus Christ).

There are people out there that say we are not Christian, but we follow Jesus Christ and try to live as He taught and thats the only defination that matters.

2 Nephi 25:26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.
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Christians don't just call themselves Christians, the possess the spirit, mind and words of Jesus Christ.

Did Jesus have secret teachings?

Did Jesus say to take oaths?

Did Jesus say what was done in a Temple was better than what you can do anywhere else?

Did Jesus say families are forever?

Did Jesus teach free agency or submission to Gods word?

Did Jesus pay for your sins on the cross or in the garden?

Did Jesus ever teach a concept of lying for the LORD?

Did Jesus teach polygamy?

Did Jesus teach about 'consecration' and 'blood atonement' that it was Gods way to kill people and steal their property for the Kingdom of God?

Why go on? Those should be an easy start.

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Christians don't just call themselves Christians, the possess the spirit, mind and words of Jesus Christ.

Did Jesus have secret teachings?

Did Jesus say to take oaths?

Did Jesus say what was done in a Temple was better than what you can do anywhere else?

Did Jesus say families are forever?

Did Jesus teach free agency or submission to Gods word?

Did Jesus pay for your sins on the cross or in the garden?

Did Jesus ever teach a concept of lying for the LORD?

Did Jesus teach polygamy?

Did Jesus teach about 'consecration' and 'blood atonement' that it was Gods way to kill people and steal their property for the Kingdom of God?

Why go on? Those should be an easy start.

And the answer to all of those is that you arn't Christian, so blah! :P

Being serious for a second, Jesus did say some of those things(with others being warped views of the devil's servent's), thought the prophet Joseph Smith.

See, in our religion, we don't cast MUTE on God, but instead (try to) listen to Him.

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Did Jesus have secret teachings?

I would say yes.

(The following information is posted from various online sources)

[begin Quotes]

The New Testament contains indications that the ancient church possessed extra-scriptural teachings that were not made available to the public but were reserved for worthy followers of Christ.

Acts 1:3 in the New Testament states that after His Resurrection, Jesus Christ taught His Apostles in secret for 40 days teaching them the mysteries of the Kingdom of God.

The last verses in the Gospel of John indicates that there were many other things that Jesus Christ said and did, that could not be fully contained even if written down in all the books in the world, that which should be written.

"I have fed you with milk," Paul told the Corinthian saints, "and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet are ye now able" (1 Corinthians 3:2). If Paul ever gave this doctrinal "meat" to the Corinthians, it is not recorded in any extant version of the New Testament. Why not? Moreover, since Paul's first letter to the saints at Corinth discusses everything from the order and glories of the resurrection to the various kinds of spiritual gifts found in the church, what could have been the "meat" that Paul withheld?

The Corinthians were "babes" in Christ; they were still unable to handle the "meat" of the gospel (1 Corinthians 3:1-2). However, Paul told them that "mature" saints were taught a "secret and hidden wisdom" (1 Corinthians 2:6-7). This secret wisdom undoubtedly constituted part of the "meat" that the apostle withheld from the Corinthians.

When Paul was blessed to visit Paradise, he heard "things that must not be divulged" (2 Corinthians 12:4, AB). The Greek here is arreta remata, "unutterable words." The adjective "unutterable" was often used "of things disclosed in Mystery rites which the initiates were charged to keep secret" (Victor Paul Furnish, II Corinthians, The Anchor Bible, Grden City, New York: Dubleday & Company, Inc., 1984, p. 527).

1 Corinthians 2:6-8 We speak gnosis among the mature (teleioi), but not the wisdom of this age or of the archons of this age, who are passing away. But we speak of the hidden wisdom of God in a mystery, which God ordained before the aeons for our glory. None of the archons of this age knew this; had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1 Corinthians 2:1 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

1 Corinthians 3:1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual (pneumatic) but as worldly (sarkic) --mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

1 Corinthians 4:1 So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God.

Paul is an initiate, a pneumatic, a spiritual, ''I worship in my spirit (pneumati) .. I long .. to share with you a certain spiritual (pneumatic) charisma to establish you'' (Romans 1:9,11). ''We speak the Gnosis among the Teleioi'' (1 Corinthians 2:16)

Church father Ignatius (50AD-117AD) told the Trallians that he possessed sacred information that they were not yet ready to receive:

Can I not write heavenly things to you? But I fear that I may do harm to "you who are infants." You must pardon me, lest you be choked by what you cannot swallow. For though I am in bonds and can know heavenly things such as the angelic locations and the archontic conjunctions, visible and invisible, for all that I am not already a disciple. [st. Ignatius of Antioch] (Born in Syria, around the year 50; died at Rome between 98 and 117, Christian tradition holds that he was a disciple of Saint John the Apostle)

These "heavenly things" or "heavenly mysteries" were obviously not recorded in the scriptures, and Ignatius did not think the Trallians were ready to receive them.

Valentinus (100AD-155AD) was a second century Christian mystic and poet. He is sometimes refered to as a "Gnostic" because of the importance that mystical knowledge (gnosis) plays in his thought. Valentinus was born in Phrebonis in upper Egypt about 100 AD and educated in nearby Alexandria. There he became a disciple of the Christian teacher Theudas who had been a disciple of Saint Paul. He claimed that Theudas taught him secret wisdom that Paul had taught privately to his inner circle.

It appears that the Gnostic Christian Valentinus derived his own Gnostic Teaching from Saint Paul the Apostle through a disciple of Saint Paul named Theudas. Many Early Christians admired him, some joined his ranks. His school lasted up to 600 A.D.

Saint Clement of Alexandria, an early Greek theologian and head of the catechetical school of Alexandria who died circa 215 AD, had strong gnostic tendencies. Saint Clement of Alexandria believed in a *secret* oral tradition that was handed down through the apostles. (Stromateis 1:11;2.3) This refers to teachings restricted to a certain number of believers (pneumatics), which basically constitutes the Gnostic side of the religion.

Concerning these secret teachings, Saint Clement of Alexandria stated:

"James the Righteous, John and Peter were entrusted by the Lord after his resurrection with the higher knowledge. They imparted it to the other apostles, to the seventy..." (Outlines Book VI)

Clement of Alexandria acknowledged that the church had secret teachings. He said these teachings had come from Christ through the apostles. I quote from historian Frank N. MaGill's summary of Clement's teachings on this subject:

Clement concedes that the Scriptures open salvation to the many, who experience the "first saving change," when they pass from heathenism to faith, or from law to Gospel. But these are saved only in the first degree. Besides his public teaching, Christ also taught his Apostles the gnosis [hidden sacred knowledge] which leads to perfection. This knowledge, Clement claims, "has descended by transmission to a few, having been imparted unwritten by the apostles." Great preparation and previous training are necessary to receive it. But those who can obey it, achieve here and now a foretaste of eternal bliss, and, in the world to come, will take their places with the Apostles in the highest sphere. (Masterpieces of Christian Literature, New York: Harper & Row, 1963, p. 47)

According to the ancient Christian historian Eusebius, Clement taught that after the resurrection the Savior gave the higher teachings to Peter, James, and John, and they shared them with the rest of the apostles, who in turn relayed them to the Seventy (Douglas M. Parrot, "Gnostic and Orthodox Disciples in the Second and Third Centuries," in Charles Hedrick and Robert Hodgson, editors, Nag Hammadi, Gnosticism, and Early Christianity, Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, 1986, p. 214).

Similarly, esteemed church father Origen said the true students of the higher teachings among the apostles were Peter, James, and John (Parrot, Ibid., p. 214)

In the Gnostic text entitled The Secret Gospel of Mark, one of the Christian Gnostic texts discovered in 1945, describes Jesus performing secret initiation rituals.

Before the discovery of this secret gospel, our only knowledge of it came from a letter written by Clement. Clement quotes from this secret gospel and refers to it as, "a more spiritual gospel for the use of those who were being perfected." He also states, "It even yet is most carefully guarded [by the church at Alexandria], being read only to those who are being initiated into the great mysteries." Clement mentions elsewhere that Jesus revealed a secret teaching to those who were "capable of receiving it and being molded by it" He also affirmed that, "The gnosis (secret knowledge) itself is that which has descended by transmission to a few, having been imparted unwritten by the apostles." (Miscell. Book VI, Chapter 7)

According to tradition, after the Roman invasion of Jerusalem, the author of the Gospel of Mark established a church in Alexandria, Egypt. Mark may also have been the author of a "secret gospel" containing more advanced teaching for those being initiated into the Christian mysteries. This secret gospel contains passages portraying Jesus teaching secret doctrines.

The Champion for the secret teachings of Jesus:

As the orthodox church in Rome gained more and more political power the more it viewed secret teachings as a threat to their own public teachings. But the Church leader who made the final and greatest attempt to revive the secret teachings of Jesus within the orthodox teachings was the first Church Father named Origen (183-253 A.D.) of Alexandria in Egypt who was a disciple of Clement of Alexandra. Origen was the first person since Paul to develop a system of theology around the teachings of Jesus. His effort was the first within the orthodox church to systematize a theology on so vast a scale. Although Origen defended orthodoxy, he included in his system the wisdom of the Christian Gnostics. His theology was a perfect synthesis of "orthodox" and "gnostic" teachings and came the closest to reviving the "Lost Christianity" of the original sects, communities and schools, at a time when the Christian Gnosticism was falling into disrepute. Unfortunately, hundreds of years later, the Church declared him a heretic and his teachings as heresy mostly because they affirmed preexistence of the soul.

Origen had this to say about the secret teachings of Jesus:

"[Jesus] conversed with His disciples in private, and especially in their sacred retreats, concerning the Gospel of God; but the words which He uttered have not been preserved, because it appeared to the evangelists that they could not be adequately conveyed to the multitude in writing or in speech... and they saw... what things were to be committed to writing, and how this was to be done, and what was by no means to be written to the multitude, and what was to be expressed in words, and what was not to be so conveyed". (Contra Celsus, Chap. VI. 18)

[End Quotes]

All of that information together strongly supports the "Secret Teachings" element.

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SR1030:

Christ said/taught: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matt 18:20)

I do not think or feel it is either a) Christlike, or cool.gif befitting or helpful to me to denegrate those who even attempt to "...gather together in His name".

I think, AAMOF, that you owe all those (LDS & Non) who come here to discuss their beliefs, an Apology for doing just that.

It is clear that (many?) of the practices of the LDS were not done in perfection- Many of them, in fact, were done under Extreme circumstances of prosecution and/or adversity. Their faith brought them to that; some survived and conquered their challenges, some did not.

(99.99999% chance) You do NOT know me, nor my wife. You do not know what is in our hopes, our thoughts, or our prayers. Wise Up!

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The LDS Church is not a Christian Church. If they were, they would be the only ones. In fact, they teach that they are the only "true Christians" now.

We don't say that we are the only true Christians. We allow that name for anyone who claims to follow Christ. I doubt it will do a lick of good to explain to you that by excluding LDS you are the one proclaiming yourself to be "true".

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Paul O

Christians are people who see their need for a saviour--so they repent and follow Christ.

I have seen you several times on this message board say that you are already a god---what kind of god needs a saviour? And if you are a god why bother needing to seek forgiveness----

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juliann: We don't say that we are the only true Christians.

I doesn't matter what you say or don't say. The LDS church does teach that LDS are the only true Christians, and has since its inception. It has no choice, Christianity supposedly did not exist for many centuries. To have a few internet Mormons. like you, to think they can represent all of Mormonism is silly. I have been told by LDS countless times that LDS are the only true Christians, and this fits nicely with the historical LDS teachings on the subject.

juliann: We allow that name for anyone who claims to follow Christ.

To indicate that you "allow" infers that you are in a position to disallow. You're not.

juliann: I doubt it will do a lick of good to explain to you that by excluding LDS you are the one proclaiming yourself to be "true".

You're right, that wouldn't do any good at all. It doesn't even make sense. I don't believe that my denomination are the "only true Christians". But if I did, I sure wouldn't be hypocritical about it.

sr

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I think that if you have to ask then it doesn't matter. I think certain people feel they have a claim on what is christian or mayhap at least a better grasp on what is christian. In the end it only matters if Christ sees you as christian--that he recognizes you as his own. It seems your friends have an agenda of what "christian" means, but I'm sure that clashes with another person's agenda of "christian." Fortunately though our christianity or lack thereof isn't in the hands of man.

My personal opinion then is that us LDSers are christian. I simply no longer care if those not LDS consider me christian. I found arguing the point doesn't really matter. I don't think I've ever changed their minds by arguing, but I have changed minds based on how I act. And I have to bite my tongue a lot... I can be pretty argumentative.

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juliann: We don't say that we are the only true Christians.

I doesn't matter what you say or don't say. The LDS church does teach that LDS are the only true Christians, and has since its inception. It has no choice, Christianity supposedly did not exist for many centuries. To have a few internet Mormons. like you, to think they can represent all of Mormonism is silly. I have been told by LDS countless times that LDS are the only true Christians, and this fits nicely with the historical LDS teachings on the subject.

Oh my, a few LDS have said it so it must be true.

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The LDS church does teach that LDS are the only true Christians, and has since its inception.

No, that is an incorrect teaching.

Christians are those who follow Christ to the best of the law they have available to them. Only Christ knows what is in someone's heart. Not you and not me.

The Church has not taught other churches weren't truly following Christ . . quite the opposite.

"We know there are decent, respectable, humble people in many churches, Christian and otherwise. In turn, sadly enough, there are so-called Latter-day Saints who by comparison are not as worthy, for they do not keep their covenants."

Boyd K. Packer

It has no choice, Christianity supposedly did not exist for many centuries.

Sure there were those who were following Christ, as the quote above shows. What did not exist was the authority given Peter to perform ordinances on earth that would be bound in heaven did not carry on to today (as many if not most Christians of the reformation period also argued long before Joseph Smith was born and learned this to be a fact from Christ in the First Vision).

I have been told by LDS countless times that LDS are the only true Christians, and this fits nicely with the historical LDS teachings on the subject.

You told Julian it doesn't matter what she and other members say . . and yet you argue using what you claim to have heard by others. You said you wouldn't be hypocritical and yet that is exactly what you have done.

If you honestly don't want to be hypocritical, read all of our teachings in the curriculum under Gospel Library at www.lds.org rather than those that seem to support whatever point you hoped to make. Here is a good place to start.

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you guys dont have as strong sides or arguments that my friends have. 

they say anyone who is saved is a  christian.

Why? How is this a stronger argument?

so who in here is saved? who  in here knows they are saved for certain?  from recent studies i am sure i am saved.

Are you sure we don't need linked to the "recent studies" to find out? I wasn't aware that my salvation depended on "recent studies" of man. You almost sound to me as if you believe in a "once saved always saved" type of doctrine?

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The Atonement of Christ covers All ( everyone). The price has been paid regardless. It doesn't matter if one even has a comprehension of the gospel or the existence of the gospel. That which was seperated has been made whole, through Christ.

Nothing which any of us, seperately or as religion do, can add or detract from the full effects of the Atonement.

Of course Mormons are Christians. There is also so much involved in the doctrine of salvation, as compared to the doctrines of exaltation. They are not to be interchanged, yet they constantly are, and I am not sure that the majority of Mormons fully understand the difference and tend to combine them. When that is done, it may sometimes appear that LDS doctrine is based on works, etc.

All doctrine of exaltation hinges on the Grace of Salvation. There would be no point to seek exaltation without the the free gift of Salvation. Unfortunately those doctrines get muddled by both members and non-members. It is my personal opinion that many aspects of LDS culture and hierarchy warp the doctrines and make it appear to much less of a Grace filled doctrine than it is.

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There are Christian LDS and non Christian LDS just as there are Christian Catholics/Orthodox/Protestent and non Christian Catholic/Orthodox/Protestent. This is Judged by THE LORD OF LIFE HIMSELF as he looks on the Heart of each individual when he judges. In His Grace/Debt, Tanyan.

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