are we considered christian?

[Teancum]

Those are some pretty serious issues that separates "Christian Mormons" from Evangelical Christians as myself.

In Christ

MU Eagle

But Mr. Fly like the Eagle (and has the brain of one to)

That bege the question.

Are evangelicals really Christians?

Teancum

[A Random Catholic]

Christians don't just call themselves Christians, the possess the spirit, mind and words of Jesus Christ.

Yes. We possess that... you idiot... Duh!! ...dolt... Stupidity really irritates me.

Nancy Mitford enquired of Brideshead Revisited author Evelyn Waugh why he was "on the side" of the rabid and destructive character Lady Marchmain. Waugh replied, ''I am not on her side; but God is, who suffers fools gladly; and the book is about God.''

[Teancum]

Christians don't just call themselves Christians, the possess the spirit, mind and words of Jesus Christ.

Yes. We possess that... you idiot... Duh!! ...dolt... Stupidity really irritates me.

Nancy Mitford enquired of Brideshead Revisited author Evelyn Waugh why he was "on the side" of the rabid and destructive character Lady Marchmain. Waugh replied, ''I am not on her side; but God is, who suffers fools gladly; and the book is about God.''

Heeeeeheheheheheheeeeeeheheheheh

[Guest johnny_cat]

I didn't mean to pick on MUEagle, though he is the one who at least implied that he understands my relationship with the Savior better than I do. You may be surprised to hear that I do think MUEagle is trying to help. My issue with him has always been that his view of LDS doctrine is terribly skewed (though he doesn't think so) and that he occasionally ridicules our faith (which I think he would readily admit to).

Your point is well taken, though. From what I gather, only those who follow later Protestant dogma are truly Christian (I've heard Catholics referred to as belonging to a nonChristian cult). Yet, the same people who claim this condemn us for arrogance because we believe we belong to the true Church established by Christ. Strange times we live in.

[YH8]

(I've heard Catholics referred to as belonging to a nonChristian cult).

Which is why I find it strange that many BAC/EVs were able to handle Mel Gibson's movie about Jesus. After all, Mel Gibson is . . . gasp . . . Catholic.

Indeed, very strange times we live in.

I admire you for being so calm about MUEagle. To me, he is one of the most transparent antimos going on this board. His views of things LDS are so skewed it is hard for me to think he is genuine and cut him any slack. He initiated PMing with me and wound up not answering probably about 98% of my questions. Granted, I asked many questions of him, but come on . . .

[Guest johnny_cat]

I admire you for being so calm about MUEagle. To me, he is one of the most transparent antimos going on this board. His views of things LDS are so skewed it is hard for me to think he is genuine and cut him any slack. He initiated PMing with me and wound up not answering probably about 98% of my questions. Granted, I asked many questions of him, but come on . . .

Honest critics don't bother me. I can see why some people would be troubled by some of our beliefs and history. As for MUEagle, I chalk him up to a genuine misunderstanding of who we are and what we believe. The gospel he describes bears very little resemblance to the one I believe. I suspect I might be against the church if I really thought we believed what he thinks we believe. Who knows where the misunderstanding comes from? The ones I am troubled by are those who intentionally misrepresent us. I don't know how they can justify it.

[Nepheye]

Teencum, the source listed is objective recorded history, and is sworn testimony of record. It isn't a fable or fantacy.

Mormons murdered Mormons, Mormons stole from Mormons, and Mormons burned down Mormon houses and barns. Why? To punish those who would choose to obey the laws of the land out of respect for Jesus Christ - even though their leaders and prophet had totally blown a reality fuse and all truth fuses.

The 'Poor persecuted Mormons" history is nothing like your Church historian have told you. You can read it for yourself or you can choose to be willfully ignorant. It's your agency, not mine that is in question.

[YH8]

Teencum, the source listed is objective recorded history, and is sworn testimony of record. It isn't a fable or fantacy.

Mormons murdered Mormons, Mormons stole from Mormons, and Mormons burned down Mormon houses and barns. Why? To punish those who would choose to obey the laws of the land out of respect for Jesus Christ - even though their leaders and prophet had totally blown a reality fuse and all truth fuses.

The 'Poor persecuted Mormons" history is nothing like your Church historian have told you. You can read it for yourself or you can choose to be willfully ignorant. It's your agency, not mine that is in question.

And we all know that "sworn testimony" equals truth, right? We all know that the court system finds truth and nothing but the truth, right? If a court convicts you of something it means you did it, right?

[BCSpace]

Mormons murdered Mormons, Mormons stole from Mormons, and Mormons burned down Mormon houses and barns. Why? To punish those who would choose to obey the laws of the land out of respect for Jesus Christ - even though their leaders and prophet had totally blown a reality fuse and all truth fuses.

No examples.

[SupahFly21]

Am I saved? Yes, but that's between me and the Lord, and certainly not something I feel comfortable talking about. In the end, after a sufficient change away from your sins anyone can consider themselves saved. There is nothing wrong with that.

why do you keep it between God and you? I like to speek freely about my faith. I find that it's good to talk about your faith with other people

[mnn727]

Nepheye claims:

Mormons murdered Mormons, Mormons stole from Mormons, and Mormons burned down Mormon houses and barns. Why? To punish those who would choose to obey the laws of the land out of respect for Jesus Christ - even though their leaders and prophet had totally blown a reality fuse and all truth fuses.

Funny, thats the same kind of thing Skinheads and Aryan Nation types say about Jews and the Holocast.

You sure about that buddy? Perhaps you should examine history a bit closer.

[KevinG]

juliann: We don't say that we are the only true Christians.

I doesn't matter what you say or don't say. The LDS church does teach that LDS are the only true Christians, and has since its inception. It has no choice, Christianity supposedly did not exist for many centuries. To have a few internet Mormons. like you, to think they can represent all of Mormonism is silly. I have been told by LDS countless times that LDS are the only true Christians, and this fits nicely with the historical LDS teachings on the subject.

juliann: We allow that name for anyone who claims to follow Christ.

To indicate that you "allow" infers that you are in a position to disallow. You're not.

juliann: I doubt it will do a lick of good to explain to you that by excluding LDS you are the one proclaiming yourself to be "true".

You're right, that wouldn't do any good at all. It doesn't even make sense. I don't believe that my denomination are the "only true Christians". But if I did, I sure wouldn't be hypocritical about it.

sr

Repsectfully and seriously, you are full of lies.

I am a "chapel Mormon". I just confirmed a gentleman yesterday as a member of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints, and I did it by the authority and power of the priestood Jesus gave us.

I also believe that there are many, many, many Christians in the world besides the Mormons. My beliefs are very representative of the bulk of Latter Day Saints.

It is the full authority of the restored Gospel that we claim to have exclusively, but our doctrine is that all can have the light of Christ.

However I would defend to the death the right of Catholics, Protestants, Evangelicals, Adventists, or any other sect that believes Jesus Christ is the author of their Salvation to call themselves Christian. And I won't even argue that they believe in a "different" Jesus.

Sorry, you are either ignorant of what Chapel Mormons believe or you are so twisted by your own hateful agenda you can't see straight any more.

[YH8]

Nepheye claims:

Mormons murdered Mormons, Mormons stole from Mormons, and Mormons burned down Mormon houses and barns. Why? To punish those who would choose to obey the laws of the land out of respect for Jesus Christ - even though their leaders and prophet had totally blown a reality fuse and all truth fuses.

Funny, thats the same kind of thing Skinheads and Aryan Nation types say about Jews and the Holocast.

You sure about that buddy? Perhaps you should examine history a bit closer.

How dare you question seeryou/Nepheye/Elihu? He knows the real scoop on things LDS. Actually it is pretty easy to figure out how things really are as they relate to things LDS. All accounts critical of things LDS are 100% true and all accounts showing any favor toward things LDS are 100% false. You see, there is absolutely no way things LDS can be true or good. If you realize this, it is easy to assess the veracity of any LDS claim.

[sr1030]

Dad: Repsectfully and seriously, you are full of lies.

I take no offense. I expect this. We have a definite disagreement. I don't question your sincerity. That said, I did not lie and you seem to have difficulty with pointing out a specific lie.

Dad: I am a "chapel Mormon". I just confirmed a gentleman yesterday as a member of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints, and I did it by the authority and power of the priestood Jesus gave us.

Jesus gave who? LDS? Are you the only ones that he gave "authority" to?

Dad: I also believe that there are many, many, many Christians in the world besides the Mormons. My beliefs are very representative of the bulk of Latter Day Saints.

My statement indicated "true Christians", and this was intentional. Did you intentionally divert to "Christians"? If so, why?

Dad: It is the full authority of the restored Gospel that we claim to have exclusively, but our doctrine is that all can have the light of Christ.

I know what LDS doctrine is. I know how exclusive it is. Therefore the hypocrisy when you whine about others that exclude you from the title of "Christian".

Dad: However I would defend to the death the right of Catholics, Protestants, Evangelicals, Adventists, or any other sect that believes Jesus Christ is the author of their Salvation to call themselves Christian. And I won't even argue that they believe in a "different" Jesus.

How very arrogant of you (not just you, LDS in general) to think you can give someone the "right" or offer your approval to "allow" someone to call themselves a Christian. You don't have that influence one way or another. We don't need or seek your approval. And this works visa versa, you don't need my approval or agreement to call your self Christian.

Dad: Sorry, you are either ignorant of what Chapel Mormons believe or you are so twisted by your own hateful agenda you can't see straight any more.

I am not ignorant of what the LDS Church has historically taught about who "true Christians" are. The LDS Church leaders have taught that LDS were the only true Christians. This can be easily be shown and is sure to be an argument you would lose.

Even your own Daniel Peterson admitted this fact on ZLMB if I recall correctly.

Can you tell me how an "Apostate" can be a "true Christian"?

sr

[Guest johnny_cat]

How very arrogant of you (not just you, LDS in general) to think you can give someone the "right" or offer your approval to "allow" someone to call themselves a Christian. You don't have that influence one way or another. We don't need or seek your approval. And this works visa versa, you don't need my approval or agreement to call your self Christian.

Here's the problem, sr. We are not talking about "true Christians." Y'all are the ones telling people that we aren't Christians, true or otherwise. As I said earlier, I don't particularly care whether you approve of my beliefs, but I do find it bothersome to hear over and over from people that I don't believe in Jesus at all. When someone finds out I'm a Mormon, they automatically assume I don't accept Jesus as my Savior. Why do you suppose people think that? Because our Christian friends have told them that we aren't Christians. They don't bother to tell them the truth: that they really mean that they take issue with some of our doctrines regarding Christ, not that we don't believe in Jesus or accept Him as our Savior.

It may be arrogant to offer approval for others to call themselves Christian, but it is something else entirely to deny our belief in Christ in such a way that has caused a lot of misunderstanding, ill will, and prejudice.

[sr1030]

Tea: How disingenuous is this?

I give up, how disingenuous is it?

Tea: Your little itty bitty denomination might not be viewed by you as the only true Christians.

"itty bitty"? This coming from an LDS?

Tea: But you most certainly believe that the only true Christians are the ones hwo get to be part of the invisible church by gettign the right Jesus in the right way which takes a lot more then just saying I believe.

Its really not my argument. I just go by what the bible says. In this case, Christ specifically. Apparently believing he existed is not enough.

Tea: This is clear fropm your prattling on about if you do not believe Jesus is He-the only true God in existence ever then you are not Christain. Right?

To believe in Christ means that you believe what he said. He said he was God. He said there was only one true God. I believe it.

Tea: So Jesus was not Christian because he never called himself the One Etarnal God now did he.

See above, yes he claimed to be God. Are you using "one Eternal God" as a title?

Tea: And don't give me the mataphisycal two nature thingy dingy. He siad the Father wsa greater then he.

Christ said this as a human. He became fully human. He gave up the "glory" he previously shared with the Father. See the book of John.

Tea: The NT just does not teach what you want it too. Your creedal Jesus is the wrong Jesus and teh one Paul warned about. He was talking to your apostate predecessors.

Really? This means I am not really a "Christian"? Am I an Apostate?

Tea: And in fact, Christians down through the centuries have not been in agreemtn on the nature of Christ the Father.

People disagree all the time. How does this help you out?

Tea: Many believed Christ was not equal it hthe Father but were still Chrsitan. And there were more Arains out there when the corrupt leaders at Nicea made their little hostile takeover. Arius actually almost one the day. But thsat is what you get when people forsake revelations, apostles and rely on councils to figure out the truth.

I know Church history.

sr

[Outshined]

Dad: However I would defend to the death the right of Catholics, Protestants, Evangelicals, Adventists, or any other sect that believes Jesus Christ is the author of their Salvation to call themselves Christian. And I won't even argue that they believe in a "different" Jesus.

How very arrogant of you (not just you, LDS in general) to think you can give someone the "right" or offer your approval to "allow" someone to call themselves a Christian. You don't have that influence one way or another. We don't need or seek your approval. And this works visa versa, you don't need my approval or agreement to call your self Christian.

His statement had nothing to do with 'offering approval' or 'giving' anyone a 'right' to call themselves anything; he said he would defend their right to be called Christians. Big difference.

[sr1030]

johnny: Here's the problem, sr. We are not talking about "true Christians."

I was to illustrate how exclusive the LDS Church is and to illustrate the hypocrisy in whining about people excluding the LDS Church from "Christian".

johnny: Y'all are the ones telling people that we aren't Christians, true or otherwise.

Y'all are the ones telling people that we are Apostates. This is not Christian either. That is considered a former Christian, one who has turned from his/her faith. So, an Apostate Christian is one who has turned from Christianity.

johnny: As I said earlier, I don't particularly care whether you approve of my beliefs, but I do find it bothersome to hear over and over from people that I don't believe in Jesus at all. When someone finds out a Mormon, they automatically assume I don't accept Jesus as my Savior. Why do you suppose people think that? Because our Christian friends have told them that we aren't Christians. They don't bother to tell them the truth: that they really mean that they take issue with some of our doctrines regarding Christ, not that we don't believe in Jesus or accept Him as our Savior.

And we don't like people thinking that LDS believe in the same Jesus Christ that we do. He is so very different that this would be misleading. This may be an advantage to LDS, but it is not to us. LDS convert many "Christians" to the LDS religion.

johnny: It may be arrogant to offer approval for others to call themselves Christian, but it is something else entirely to deny our belief in Christ in such a way that has caused a lot of misunderstanding, ill will, and prejudice.

To have the LDS Church which to be viewed as Christian causes a lot of misunderstanding as well. Some people will believe that the LDS Church believes in the same Christ (not just historical person, that is the same of course) as we do. This is just simply not true.

sr

[KevinG]

Dad: Repsectfully and seriously, you are full of lies.

I take no offense. I expect this. We have a definite disagreement. I don't question your sincerity. That said, I did not lie and you seem to have difficulty with pointing out a specific lie.

O.K. I'll get specific in your statement...

Christ said:

[Guest johnny_cat]

For the record, I have never referred to any non-LDS Christian as an apostate, nor have I heard a church leader in my lifetime do so. It is not hypocritical at all for it to bother me that you would deny my faith in Christ, no matter our doctrinal disagreement. If you consider it "whining" to object to your denying the foundation of my faith, then by all means I am a whiner.

I deeply resent your saying that I claim to follow Christ because it is merely to my advantage to do so in order to convert Christians. As if professing my faith were merely a pose designed to deceive the unwary.

If you think that there is some misunderstanding as to our belief in Christ, then you should by all means tell people what the differences are. That is completely different from misleading people into thinking we do not believe in Christ at all.

I think I have had my last conversation with you, sr.

[sr1030]

johnny: For the record, I have never referred to any non-LDS Christian as an apostate, nor have I heard a church leader in my lifetime do so.

johnny, the LDS Church without a doubt teaches that "Christendom" is apostate. This makes me wonder how much you know about your own religion.

johnny: It is not hypocritical at all for it to bother me that you would deny my faith in Christ, no matter our doctrinal disagreement.

You are personalizing this too much. I have nothing against you personally. This is a debate.

johnny: If you consider it "whining" to object to your denying the foundation of my faith, then by all means I am a whiner.

I consider your statement here highly hypocritical. Remember how all churches were wrong and their creeds are an abomination.

johnny: I deeply resent your saying that I claim to follow Christ because it is merely to my advantage to do so in order to convert Christians. As if professing my faith were merely a pose designed to deceive the unwary.

I didn't say that, and I resent you indicating that I did. I said it may be an advantage to LDS, I didn't say it was claimed merely to convert Christians. Why do LDS on this board need to do what you have done with this statement?

johnny: If you think that there is some misunderstanding as to our belief in Christ, then you should by all means tell people what the differences are.

I do.

johnny: That is completely different from misleading people into thinking we do not believe in Christ at all.

I have never lead people to believe that LDS do not believe in the historical person of Christ. That would not be true.

johnny: I think I have had my last conversation with you, sr.

ok, take care.

sr

[Guest johnny_cat]

Of course I personalized this. You deny the basis of my faith and expect me to be fine with that? Otherwise, I'm being hypocritical or I'm ignorant of my faith, its history and doctrines.

If I misunderstood your statement about it giving us the advantage, it was not intentional.

[sr1030]

Of course I personalized this. You deny the basis of my faith and expect me to be fine with that? Otherwise, I'm being hypocritical or I'm ignorant of my faith, its history and doctrines.

johnny, you're not understanding this. The LDS Church foundation is based upon the accusation that all churches were wrong, that their creeds (which have not changed) are an abomination.

So, you (LDS) deny the basis of my faith and expect me to be fine with that?

So yes, when you (LDS) complain about the exclusivity of other religions, you (LDS) are being very hypocritical.

Some LDS claims to exclusivity:

-the one true Church

-only true Christians

-the only church with authority

-the only non-apostate church

-the church with more of the truth than all others

sr

[sr1030]

Dadof7, you neither showed how I lied or how I was ignorant of the bible. You simply gave your own interpretation, which in my opinion was errant. In addition, you seem to have missed the point. Christ was indicating the requirement to view him in a certain way to really be his follower. This would exclude those who did not view him in this certain way from his followers. If LDS are the ones that view him in this "correct" way, everyone else does not.

Now, back to the question that you have apparently intentionally ignored.

Can you tell me how an Apostate can be a "true Christian"?

Can you even tell me how an Apostate can be a "Christian"?

sr

[Guest johnny_cat]

johnny, you're not understanding this. The LDS Church foundation is based upon the accusation that all churches were wrong, that their creeds (which have not changed) are an abomination.

So, you (LDS) deny the basis of my faith and expect me to be fine with that?

So yes, when you (LDS) complain about the exclusivity of other religions, you (LDS) are being very hypocritical.

Let me see if I have this straight. We believe that mainstream Christianity is wrong doctrinally, so that justifies your telling people that we only accept "the historical person of Christ," but we don't believe He is our Savior.

And it's hypocritical to object to that?